Talk:Soul

Buddhism section needs a correction

The soul is a lazy explanation of the universe most amazing creation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.230.237.248 (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The last sentence in the Buddhism section is clearly non-factual:

"Others point to research done at the University of Virginia as proving that at least some people are reborn."

It's referenced but following the reference leads one to page 13 of a Book that says only "In his recent book, "Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect", he [Ian Stevenson] summarizes thirty years of research into alleged accounts of children accurately recalling specific people and events in their past lives". Nothing is even remotely proven by this, certainly not the idea that souls or people are being reborn! The rest of page 13 says that with very few exceptions (Stevenson being the only one named), the larger scientific community "refute any kind of dualism on the ground that there is no evidence for the existence of any kind of subjective mental phenomenon apart from the functions and properties of the brain".

It might be more accurate to keep the reference and change the sentence to say something like:

"At least one researcher at the University of Virginia continues to search for evidence for a non-materialistic origin to the psyche." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steevithak (talk • contribs) 03:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Development and composition of the soul.

I was wondering if there was an expert on this who could possibly write and post a section on how a soul develops from the joining of a spermatozoa and an ovum. If there is in fact such a thing as a human soul, then its stages of development from inception (It must have a beginning right?) should be included in this article. Perhaps a section on the composition, properties and characteristics of a soul should also be included. I've been told that the soul's destiny is what life is all about. These important issues should not be left out of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.25.218.167 (talk) 03:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Not my article, but it could be a case of lack of data here, for little can be measured and reported on, first hand, here, of perception and qualia of consciousness at that state. Though on a physical basis, if soul is a characteristic that permeates the body, it is mostly the mother's soul imparted through sustinance, and under the effects of the DNA of the father's cell. Perhaps some religious special texts describe the theological ideas written on the matter, but science will be void on this matter, most likely. The Christian Bible has a reference where Elizabeth's Baby John leapt in her womb at the approach of Mary with Jesus, indicating the presence of soul and or God with Mary at virtually conception. But that is the extent of that data source and detail, as you have requested, but addresses one of your questions, as to views of the moment the soul may exist. Likewise, from personal experience, soul order structure is related to body size and data absorbed. When I was a small child, human vision was grainy and poor response, and now is quite sharp as an adult, though I feel quite similar in my personal sense of self, thinking that far back how I felt compared to today, being only smarter in the english language and world's dangers and benefits. This may have to do with neural network resolution, as well as quantum entanglement qualia sense structure. But without systemic quantum measurement devices available, the balance between the two is indistinguishable and unmeasurable ... to tell what part is young neural nets, and what part is the soul. For the soul might be perfect and somewhat constant as my experience suggests, and the physical body is restraining senses while growing onto such a quantum entanglement structure soul, or vice versa for other's experience. (LoneRubberDragon) 75.82.144.206 (talk) 01:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Quantum Physcis Mutual Entanglement Permeation Soul

JOHN ARCHIBAL WHEELER, ROGER PENROSE, DAVID CHALMERS SOUL QUANTUM

There should be more detailed reference to John Archibald Wheeler's, Roger Penrose's, and David Chalmer's approaches of quantum spirit, in the "it from bit" concept vein. (LoneRubberDragon)

QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT

From quantum physics, there is a concept of entanglement that says, for all measurements (interactions), there is a portion of projective measurement reduction on each particle, as well as shared entanglement residue in both particle measurements. The reductionist measurement aspect is independent for each particle. The entanglement measurement aspect is mutually dependent on particles such that measuring one particle affects the other particle instantaneously, or infinitely faster than light. (LoneRubberDragon)

MUTUAL ENTANGLEMENT PERMEATION IN BODY

In the human body, there is a mass cobweb of mutual wavefunction entanglements that permeates the body, producing an entanglement system functionality throughout the body. And while behavior and sense are based on the purely material network of matter and neural systems, that all remain point reductionist independent due to body temperature inter-particle measurements, we also see that there is a holistic system in that cobweb of permeating mutual entanglements that lies parallel or supervenient to the reductionist point matter. (LoneRubberDragon)

OBSERVE SPATIAL AND SIMULTANEOUS AND POLARIZED MEASUREMENTS

What does this produce, observeably? For human vision, it produces a simultaneous and spatial field of vision, with light and color that is simultaneously or holistically sensed. This is quite different from a piece of passive receptive film in a double slit interference experiment that records independent spots for photons. Even a digital camera would only sense photons on independent pixel detectors. But, to reiterate, the human eye-brain system senses the world in a spatial and simultaneous holistic field. Why is it simultaneous? That part is easy, because entanglement alterations operates infinitely faster than light, and a cobweb of mutual entangled particle characteristics through the body and mind-matter, when measured here or there by sense data, affects the entire cobweb in some way all at once, instantaneously. Why is it spatial and colored, for human vision, for example? That is more difficult. Likely, in the point reductionist material properties of the mind substrate, the waves of electrochemical sense pulses produce coherencies in the mutually entangled particles through the body, producing polarizations and distributions on the entanglements causing human vision to appear spatial and colored, in the example qualia of human vision. However, the not communication / no communication theorem poses problems as to why anything coherent is observed at all, holistically, in human vision because it says no coherent information is conveyed between two entangled particle wavefunctions, that is unless the same large statistical numbers of coherently entangled particle wavefunction properties also produces the sense of color and space and lightness of the human vision example, despite the point quantum not communication theorem, with coherent information sent by the numbers of entangled particles. Without instantaneous quantum entanglement effects, it is absolutely puzzling how to explain the "colour", simultenaity, and spatiality of senses like sight and sound and touch, much less taste, scent, thoughts, and emotion. For what mechanism related to measurement and spatiality and instantaneousness is there to explain that, except Quantum Entanglement with some form of Coherent Information Conveyed infinitely faster than light in an entire body system. Reductionist matter theory cannot convey a system spense, because each point of matter is considered independent, and then what is there to observe the WHOLE of that, if a Homunculus does not exist in some form throughout the body? Only Holist System Theories can do this. Lastly, this definition of soul based on mutual quantum entanglement permeating the body is not a material definition of a soul, but an immaterial quantum probability state of matter entanglement, as Hindu and other non material theories of soul propose. As such, the soul, this way, is immaterial, and yet dependent on a material substrate to exist, for without any matter, there is nothing for a soul to exist upon, because quantum enatanglement systems require matter to have the property of entanglement. And this definition of soul is massless, as it is made of entanglement state information of a system of measurement, assuming that information contains no mass, or virtually zero mass, in a taylor series incomplete definition of mass based on configuration entropy and entanglement configuration entropy. Thus, making soul immaterial, instantaneous outside of space and time, (practically) massless, and holistic as a system, forming the sense of space and colour and simultenaity of measurement, as quantum physics is built on measurement and its residue of mutual particle quantum entanglement. (LoneRubberDragon)

MIND SOUL DUALITY REGARDING STATE AS ELECTROMAGNETISM VERSUS ELECTRON-PROTON DUALITY NATURE IN CATEGORY

With regards to Descartes versus Swinburne, we have an interesting situation. If one argues there is a categorical error, in calling the material mind base a separate medium from the sensed perception of one's soul, we run into issues. For if one says that material mind and perception soul are one substance, then electrons-protons and the electromagnetic field are one substance in category, also. BUT ... if electrons-protons and electromagnetism are considered two different categories of matter state, then point reductionist independent mind-matter and the holistic cobweb system of mutual particle entanglement systemic perception soul are two different states of matter. One substance being the substrate of reductionist state of point matter in the body-mind materials, and the other substance being the mutual states of residual entanglements that permeates the quantum quality of the whole holistic body. In this case, soul is reliant upon matter to exist, to support quantum entanglement, but the mutual quantum entanglement remains a holistic sense of quantum state on systemic particles quantum state that is "one with everything" or "one with each other mutually", which is separate from the independent reductionist quantum state that is the particle probability of each particle as an independent reductionist unit. (LoneRubberDragon) 75.82.144.206 (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_measurement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_from_bit#Wheeler.27s_.22it_from_bit.22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Archibald_Wheeler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_penrose

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_in_the_Machine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_R._Hofstadter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach

I will try to answer the person who asked the question. How do we know souls exist? Answer: given that you believe in the Bible it says in John 20:22 that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto his disciples. meaning that God has breathed our eternal souls onto us. The Soul is described as Gods breath in the Bible. Given that you believe in God and that the New Testament grants all people living after the death of Jesus eternal life based on the Judgement the Holy Spirit is in fact your soul. We know souls exist because God the Father states that they do in the Book of Genesis described as Gods breath and Jesus also states that they do. You have to believe and belief comes from the understanding of the Bible which is Gods Word. Hope is what we do have and it is what all of us can truly believe in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Godar75 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Not anywhere, did I even *mention* that Jesus person, so you are off topic, in your intentions, whether good or bad, to answer what *I* wrote, so it seems those Christian people obviously do not know how to follow a topic, now, do they? But anyway, Ok, HOW did this Jesus person force an additional layer of "spirit" into a human body that already contained a Quantum Physics Mutual Entanglement human spirit? Could not that Jesus fellow have transmitted drugs to his disciples, through his breath? A drug is hardly something to worship as God, and is only a deception, to call it God, in a human that already contains a sober spirit by quantum physics. That Jesus fellow could have been on drugs, and fooled the apostles, they being in his Hole Spirit addiction. Can you, in physics, explain your claims, and the systems physics protocol involved with that spirit mechanism, assuming your Jesus fellow is not ruled by a physics mystery and chaos, without rules or logic or laws, with Jesus being ultimately lawless to reasonable physics, or is even merely a secret drug trafficker? An intrieging concept, though, to worship the first major drug trafficker as God! I'm sure a drug trafficking Jesus person, really kept the money flowing in to them, and spread quite rapidly, building churches burning incense for the "followers" so doped up that 98% couldn't read in those drugged up dark ages. And, if he did drugs, like that, that would also explain the ressurection, as a drug induced revival. Plus, the drugs would be capable of creating apostles that followed him, even after death, to their own martyrdoms. I heard from the 1970's that suspects on PCP and such, could give them superhuman strength and not any sense of pain, which is what the martyrs suffered, following that Jesus person. Don't get me wrong, I like the occasional drink, and smoke, but I do not call it God, but rather a neural network modifier, and quantum system sense affector. 76.167.43.88 (talk) 06:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

AND, Did you even read and half understand what was first posted in discussion, here, on quantum physics mutual entanglement systems? And how can we know what you claim is true of any form of Hole Spirit with this Jesus person, for just the physics of measuring a quantum physics mutual entanglement system function for a human, is so subtle, that it cannot be readily measured externally. In fact, physics, so far, has completely failed to prove merely the human spirit, and reaches towards the complete disproof of merely the human spirit (sans / without ANY God). Science cannot even prove soft tissue damage in hospitals, prone to the illegal deception of medical science itself, unable to detect something much more measurable than human spirit. Similarly, science cannot prove drugs have *perceptual* effects, because none of those things can be proven, except through testimonies, and so must be taken on ... Faith, just like soft tissue damage. And how do you even know, given the potential that this Jesus fellow was merely a drug trafficking person, that there isn't Really an Allah monolith type rock processor, that endows humans with that Holy Spirit through even more magical methods than *drugs*, to transmit a holistic sense to humans at a great distance from Mecca. And how do you know that that Jesus fellow is not a mere fakir of a drug based ressurection, or that there was not even a *double* of Jesus, who appeared later on, playing a "healed" Jesus, just like Saddam Hussein had multiple Hussein dopplegangers running around, fooling everyone in Iraq? Stalin and Hitler even used doubles, to play them, and fooled everyone. Even your Bible's God, uses Satan, in II Thessalonians 2, disguised as that Jesus fellow, and that God intentionally permits to be sent to those that God blinds, to damn those who believe the lie, that God Intelligently Designed and permits on the world, using God's Master Planned imposter of Jesus, in that transformed Satan, producing humans running around saying "Jesus is here, or Jesus is there, but to believe them not", from that same Jesus fellow's own words in that Gospel. Some God, you propose, over physics, of a lawless intentional deception planning and damning God, and a potential drug trafficker, in that Hole Spirit. For to select only this Jesus fellow, is to Eternally Know that Mohammed and Allah are Certifyable Infidels, as well as that Buddha fellow, or the Hindu trinity Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu. So, What? You can pick a verse in physics, or The Bible, or The Koran, or Buddhist Tripitakas, and in that "Hope" you can pick your own reality of ultimate God and definition of spirit, from the Hindu smorgasborg of available Gods, because Hope is God, and God is Hope, as you somewhat imply ... "Hope is what we do have and it is what all of us can truly believe in", that you wrote? In short, your response was too far a ramblingly incoherent Biblical Research response, with a superficiality, that I hope you might be able to return to help flesh out more fully, and in a more physics based systems response from that Bible book with all knowledge, as I can not understand a thing that you have written in your response ... and I can read several computer code languages, several human languages from Mandarin to Japanese to Hebrew and Greek, and system's engineering theory. 76.167.43.88 (talk) 06:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Page move

Does anyone mind if I move this to something like Soul (spirit), and make the disambiguation page the main one? SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 01:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll go ahead with that. If someone objects, we can always undo it. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 01:21, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Um, any reason this wasn't brought to WP:RM? --JaGa^talk 17:27, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, as WP:RM says, "There is no obligation to list such move requests here; this page may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input, or for users to request assistance from administrators in moving pages." There's no need to list it if it isn't controversial. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 17:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, but I do think it's controversial, and would benefit from wider discussion. Would you object if I undid the moves so you could start a discussion at RM? --JaGa^talk 18:08, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

New here, but I agree that it would benefit from further discussion. hgilbert (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, Slim said above, "If someone objects, we can always undo it." WP:RM also mentions the possibility of undoing the move for discussion. So that seems a perfectly reasonable approach. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:36, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Y Done Thanks for the open minded discussion. --JaGa^talk 15:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problems

Content in the Islamic section of this article placed in 2009, here, duplicates at least in part material previously published in this 1983 book. This content was placed by a person whose contributions have proven to be copyright problems in multiple articles. While the material has changed somewhat, what remains is a derivative work. Unless we are able to verify that this material is public domain or otherwise compatibly licensed, it's going to to need to be rewritten or removed, I'm afraid. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 22:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

You are the soul.

The cycle of your existence, and the observations you make in that cycle (0<1), are of plurality 'c' of units 1/c, irrespective of whether the unit 1/c is an hour, a year or some other unit of measurement of the interval of your existence. The transformation through that cycle can be marked as (0<u<1), where '0' is your birth and '1' is your death. Symbol 'u' stands for the moment 'now' in which is located your consciousness of existence of that which you are observing. In that unit 'now' there is also your memory and the picture of yourself. The 'now', at the point 'u', is static and of magnitude 1/c, as seen from the outside. The internal plurality of the unit 'u' is variable during the transformation through the cycle (0<u) of your past. It varies as u=n/c. Position 'n' of your consciousness, defined by the limit of your I, decides on the plurality within 'u'. The position 'n' varies as (0<n<c). The u=n/c is one of 'c' units 'now' of your life, each 'now' containing the memory of that which was observed along the interval of (0<u) of your past, from your birth at '0' to the present 'now' at 'u'. Each 'u' is always a 'now' within the larger 'now' of plurality 'c' parts 1/c of your life. KK (178.182.20.86 ([[User talk:178.182.20.86 |talk]]) 13:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC))But who is this 'soul' which does all that observing and who is conscious of existence of that which he observes? Who am I as the 'soul'? I am my self and my memory 'The store of truths' Memory As the 'soul' I come from before my body was born and I shall exist after my body is dead. Neither the beginning '0' nor the end '1' of the interval of time of existence of the observer are perfect. 'Organization of the reality' Reality KK (78.146.73.50 (talk) 12:43, 9 December 2011 (UTC))

Holy s*

"Through a connection to the Soul the mind apprehends abstractions implicit in spirit whether that be of transcendent derivation or temporal analysis."

Whoever thought up this monstrosity has no soul. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.231.146.82 (talk) 20:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The Invention of God

I put the following paragraph in the Science section and it was removed. I'd like to know why. There is no mention here.

Bill Lauritzen, in his book, The Invention of God: The Natural Origins of Mythology and Religion [82], states that the concept of the "soul" was "an attempt by early humans to understand what we now call oxygen..." By looking at the world as early humans did, Lauritzen noted that these early humans would have observed such things as: people die when they can't breathe, blood evaporates into the air, and completely burned (or cremated) bodies are reduced to nothing but ashes. To account for these seemingly magical facts early humans deduced that the body is made of something largely immaterial, which they called the soul or spirit, and which enters the body through the breath and leaves it upon decomposition or cremation. Lauritzen notes that the early humans were right to an extent, in that the body is composed of about 65% oxygen and 9% hydrogen. Lauritzen also made a video that introduces the soul-oxygen idea.[83] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill360360 (talk • contribs) 16:00, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Due and undue weight. We really should not have a paragraph about what someone says in a self published book, certainly not without any third party sources. - MrOllie (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. I think the author, Bill Lauritzen, can be considered a reliable source. See his web page at www.earth360.com. Also, the book jacket includes praise from a famous CalTech Scientist: Mamikon Mnatsakanian, PhD, a famous psychologist: Elizabeth Loftus, PhD, Psychology, U C Irvine, and a famous author, Sir Arthur C. Clarke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill360360 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, no, book jacket blurbs do not turn a self published book to a reliable source, nor does the fact that the author has a website. - MrOllie (talk) 16:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I strongly concur with MrOllie. hgilbert (talk) 21:08, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to sign this comment. The book jacket blurbs from the referenced book are from very reliable scientists. And www.earth360.com is a long-standing, highly ranked web site, with many serious articles, commented on throughout the web, by many reliable scholars. Thus, that is a different situation that someone's neighbor writing a book jacket blurb, or someone pasting up a web site overnight. Also to quote Wikipedia: "The word "source" as used on Wikipedia has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (the article, book), the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (for example The New York Times, Cambridge University Press, etc.). All three can affect reliability." The fact that this author, Bill Lauritzen, is an independent scholar and has chosen to publish his articles and book independently, is only one of three things to consider. The other things to consider are the work itself (the actual content), and the author (Bill Lauritzen). It should also be remembered that Walt Whitman, Poe, Twain, Ben Franklin, James Joyce and others published independently. Bill360360 (talk) 15:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill360360 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)