Talk:Steven Hassan

The Publication of Hassan's book

There was a statement in the article about "the last publication" of Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control. The book is till being published. Check Amazon. I think a more accurate rendering would be edition rather than publication

Criticism

I added some properly referenced criticism from known cult experts of Hassan's work and this was deleted, due to "weight". This is not a weight issue because 1) the bulk of this article is positive and 2) the cult experts are significant ones and were properly referenced. There is no good evidence that their view of Hassan's work is a small minority as Hassan's work is quite controversial, as the referenced work indicates. Critical points of view, for balance, do need to be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs) 19:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

the criticism is that his approach is "standard fare" and could, if used improperly, be used to manipulate people. This is not done as an empirical analysis but rather a comparison of their own method. this is not a criticism but rather Clark et al. use Hassan's method as a foil sell their own method of cult deprogramming. hence a weight issue in that it is a criticism unique to one published piece and not widely held, in fact only held by those who are trying to elevate their own counselling methods.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:09, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no requirement that references in Wikipedia be empirical investigations. If that were the case, nothing of Steve Hassan's work could be included since he has never conducted a single empirical study in his life and yet he makes claims that his methods are superior to others. You are free to disagree with the critics and are entitled to your unsubstantiated opinions of their motives, but for you to delete valid references to published criticism is at odds with Wikipedia's policies. If you persist in attempting to suppress this criticism, I will request a mediation from Wikipedia. There is no valid reason not to include this properly referenced criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs) 01:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

• When I google [Pignotti Hassan] I get a large number of hits.[1] It appears that Pignotti is in a real life dispute with the subject. If so, it would be better if that person were not involved in editing the biography.   Will Beback  talk  01:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I referenced and cited valid material and left my own opinions on Hassan completely out of what I added. Hence, I am not in violation of any of Wikipedia's policies. There is no rule against who can post, as long as the postings are properly done. It appears that the biased person is the one who is so bent on having this valid, cited material deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs)

Is it incorrect that Monica Pignotti has been critical of the subject?   Will Beback  talk  01:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

While I have criticized Hassan, I have not inserted any original research into this article, only validly referenced sources. Is there any policy against Wikipedia authors not being critics? Are there policies against people who are clearly supporters and biased in that direction being authors? The statements by "coffeepusher" such as his unsubstantiated assertions regarding the author of this critique are hardly unbiased. If his supporters biased in favor of him are allowed to post, why shouldn't a critic, as long as I abide by Wikipedia's rules, which I have? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonicaPignotti (talk • contribs) 01:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

There is more to Wikipedia than valid sources. There is also NPOV. Specifically, Coffeepusher has referenced the clause on weight, WP:UNDUE. Articles should be balanced, without placing undue emphasis on issues. Extensive quotes from a single source give the appearance of undue weight. Given the shortness of the overall biography, few lines would appear more appropriate than 284 words.

It'd be better if neither critics nor supporters made this article into a battle ground.   Will Beback  talk  01:40, 10

February 2012 (UTC)

Again, I have to challenge that this is an issue of "weight" since the majority of this article is highly positive with only a small section on criticism. I put in the criticism, precisely to give the article some balance. I would be willing to compromise, however, and shorten the paragraph if that would satisfy your requirement. MonicaPignotti (talk) 01:51, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "highly positive" material there is. There's no "praise" section, just a "criticism" section. Please propose your compromise version. Ideally it should summarize rather than quote the source.   Will Beback  talk  01:55, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I just edited it before I read this and I basically did just that. I took out most of the quotes and summarized. As for the positive material, while it does not have the specific label "praise section" the material is clearly highly laudatory of Mr. Hassan.MonicaPignotti (talk) 02:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is the edited version, which has all quotations removed and is much shorter: Cult experts David Clark, Carol Giambalvo, Noel Giambalvo, Kevin Garvy and Michael Langone, PhD have criticized Steve Hassan's approach to exit counseling in a chapter entitled "Exit Counseling: A Practical Overview" from an edited volume ". Their central criticism is that Hassan's approach is said to "effect" change without the cult-involved person's prior approval and is hence, manipulative, whereas in contrast, Clark et al's informational approach "invites" change. To date, no research exists that demonstrates the superiority of either method of exit counseling. MonicaPignotti (talk) 02:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I just looked up the source. It makes a point that it does not criticize anyone, so I've removed the "criticism" words. Also the last two sentences don't seem to be derived directly from the source, but maybe I just couldn't find it, so I've added a citation request tag.   Will Beback  talk  02:22, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentence about inviting vs. effecting change is discussed in the Clark et al article referenced. The last sentence about lack of research for either approach is a statement of fact that can be verified by searching research databases that there are no studies comparing various methods of exit counseling. This is a statement that no exit counselor, including Hassan, would challenge, but if that is not acceptable, I can delete that final sentence.MonicaPignotti (talk) 02:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a citation in the article to any Clark article. If it mentions Hassan then it could be added. If not, then it isn't relevant.   Will Beback  talk  02:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

On which page would I find the material supporting this sentence:

• Their central comment is that Hassan's approach is said to "effect" change without the cult-involved person's prior approval and is hence, manipulative, whereas in contrast, Clark et al.'s informational approach "invites" change.

I see "manipulative" used many times in the book, but usually to refer to other things.   Will Beback  talk  02:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reported this issue to the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Steven Hassan.Coffeepusher (talk) 03:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is the quote where they discussed their concerns about the potential of Hassan's approach to manipulate clients: "vague and rather standard fare for counseling approaches within the field of humanistic psychology. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework's foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client." (p. 175).

Also, the authors did clearly label their writings as a "critique" of Hassan. On p. 177 they stated: "We have been able to critique Hassan in such detail because he has written so clearly about his approach". In that same paragraph is their statement about inviting vs. effecting change.

Coffeepusher: Criticism is a valid part of every biography of living persons and I do not see how this violates the guidelines. Having an article that excludes all criticism as you appear to be attempting to do, is not neutral and balanced. But fine, let's see what the moderators have to say.MonicaPignotti (talk) 03:22, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is a quote from that same article that shows that even Hassan interpreted these authors as accusing him of being manipulative: "Hassan...says that our critique exaggerates the manipulativeness of his approach." (p. 175) So here you can see clearly that even Steve Hassan interpreting their writings as accusing him of being manipulative. I did not invent this word. Various forms of it are used repeatedly throughout the article.MonicaPignotti (talk) 03:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I am going to remove this criticism from the article. The criticism itself is a thinly veiled "our theory is better than his" statement, it doesn't conform with WP:WEIGHT being that it is not representative of the common criticism out there, and while I do agree with Monica that we need to make this article more representative of the literature that does not mean finding any critical article and adding it in, those articles must conform to WP:WEIGHT. Being a WP:BLP I believe that we should error toward not including critical literature unless we can prove that it is representational of common themes about the person.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Based on discussions among exit counselors at numerous conferences I have attended, that debate is one central to the exit counseling profession and the authors of that piece are not lightweights in the profession, so I want to go on record that I strongly disagree with and protest this omission of legitimate criticism. I am of precisely the opposite opinion, that criticism of key figures is vital to the progress and development of new fields such as this and is very important for potential consumers of Steve Hassan's services to be aware of. This article right now reads like a puff piece, in my opinion. It is interesting that Wikipedia editors tend to have no problem with critical material being inserted into article on people who are considered to be "cult" leaders, yet when it is an anti-cult leader, apparently there is a double standard. I would be willing to bet that had I inserted critical material into the David Miscavige article, as long as it as properly referenced, no one would have had a problem with it and no one would have brought up the fact that I have been openly critical of Scientology in a very public way. In any case, rest assured I will keep you posted if and when other documented criticism comes up on Mr. Hassan and his practices.68.59.48.36 (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, just FYI, it is Steve Hassan who has repeatedly claimed that his approach is superior to other people's in spite of a lack of any kind of empirical evidence and that is what has alienated him from several of his peers (I can provide citations for that if you're interested). The authors of the critique I cited did not say they were better and were even honest enough to note in the article that there was no research as to which method was better.MonicaPignotti (talk) 23:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)