Talk:Subtropics

Do highland regions count?

I noticed that some areas in Philippines (Baguio), Mexico (Mexico City) and South America (Bogota, Cuzco, La Paz) aren't listed as being subtropical climate even though all these locations (despite being in tropical latitudes) are subtropical because they are on high elevations. Is there a reason for that? 79thfiregod 21:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Scotland is not subtropical

The mere fact that SOME subtropical plant species can be sucessfully grown in places such as Scotland or Vancouver Island ( because of the mild low-frost winter weather due to ocean currents etc ), does not mean that these places can be considered to have a subtropical climate.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eregli bob (talk • contribs) 06:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Nonsense

"The term 'subtropics' describes the climatic region found adjacent to the tropics, usually adjacent to either the north or south pole latitudinal. "

The second part of the preceding statement makes no sense whatsoever and should be changed. I would change it myself but I have no idea what the intention of the author was. Eregli bob 06:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Same here. I dare not touch it either as it perhaps was written by a Fringe Case. Jidanni 18:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.244.53 (talk) 15:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Coastal Australia

This is completely wrong. Firstly, the tropic of capricorn passes straight through Austalia (including two of its coasts!) which maeans at least part of the coastline is Tropical. Secondly, are you actually suggesting that Melbourne and Hobart are situated in subtropical regions?

Also, how can you say the term only applies to 'Coastal Australia' and south africa? Both countries have non-coastal areas that are subtropical.

If nobody has an objection i'll be back to change the article. Factoid Killer 15:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. This article needs more spatial definitions to help describe the geographical regions that are the subtropics. This would help seperate it from the climate related zone known as a Subtropical climate and aid in the distinction between the two when they do not align together on a map. - Shiftchange 01:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Athens?

Athens does NOT fit the given definition at all. Either the definition must be changed or Athens not included, because in Athens it freezes and snows almost every winter. If you prefer, the definition could be improved to include the Mediterranean climate, but it's not very clear. David 11:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The Mediterranean climate is a transition climate between the dry tropical weather and the humid maritime temperate weather. All these three types of climate (deserts, mediterranean and maritime temperate) are located on the western sides of continents, both in the Northern and in the Southern hemisphere. The Mediterranean climate can be considered sub-tropical.

All Southern Australia, excepting Tasmania, can be considered sub-tropical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.169.60.178 (talk) 20:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Merge from Talk:Subtropical climate

I think it should be merged with Subtropical climate Amirpedia 14:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree; there doesn't seem much point having this spearate article (and articles whose titles are adjectives alwsys look odd). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Should this be merged with the article Subtropics? --Editor B 17:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

That was an excellent suggestion. Moving this talk to Talk:Subtropics, as well. --Dhartung | Talk 01:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Subtropical Depression 22 (2005)

Why is there a picture of Subtropical Depression 22 in the article? It has nothing to do with anything. I am removing the picture.

Miami

It says here that Miami is truly tropical, yet on the Miami page it says that it falls just short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.102.240 (talk • contribs) 16:44, 12 November 2006

Miami AP (S) 25° 48' N 80° 16' W Miami Beach Co 25° 47' N 80° 17' W

"The subtropics refers to the zones of the Earth immediately north and south of the tropic zone, which is bounded by the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, at latitude 23.5 ° north and south. The term 'subtropics' describes the climatic region found adjacent to the tropics, closer to either the north or south pole latitudinal."

Miami tropical? Ah, close but no cigar!

Auckland

How can Auckland be subtropical? It is clearly temperate and lies in the temperate zone. Only the far north of Northland is subtropical in New Zealand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.86.40 (talk) 22:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The subtropics are part of the temperate zone, which is why they are sub-tropical and not tropical. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 08:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

The temperature averages for auckland are all on the Auckland page for wikipedia, Auckland has eight or mor months with a mean average of above 10 degrees celsius, the very definition of a subtropical climate. Furthermore, here is a metereological page with temperature descriptions. http://www.tourism.net.nz/new-zealand/about-new-zealand/weather-and-climate.html#temperatures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.120.101.12 (talk) 16:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

May not be official per Köppen but Auckland does have a Cfb climate. Please stop readding it when it is disputed. Bidgee (talk) 11:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Temperature

"These climates rarely - if ever - see frost or snow, and plants such as palm, citrus and many broadleaf evergreens flourish, in contrast to the hardier deciduous and coniferous trees which dominate midlatitude climates."

This isn't really correct. Places like Atlanta, Georgia or even Washington D.C. are considered to have subtropical climate but frosts and snow are relatively common there (see articles for those cities). The actual definition of a subtropical climate is that the AVERAGE temperature of the coldest month does not fall below freezing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.43.153 (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

According to your definition, also Britain and Ireland would have a "subtropical climate" since the average temperature of the coldest month for most locations does not fall below zero. In my opinion a real subtropical climate should have an average temperature of the coldest month at least above 7 °C (45 °F)*. Below that value the vegetation activity of plants in winter is reduced--Carnby (talk) 08:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Part of the British Isles - The Isles of Scilly - has an average in the coldest month of 10C (50F) max and 7C (45F) min - an overall average of 8.5C (47F) - so that would be subtropical on the definition given above*. Furthermore, there are 8 months when the overall average for the month is 10C (50F) or greater, which is the requirement for subtropical as per the Glenn Trewartha Classification. It is nonsense to say that the cutoff for subtropical is 0C (32F) average for the coldest month except where the warmest month averages 22C (72F) or warmer as per Koppen. New York just sneaks into that category and has an annual temperature very similar to the Isles of Scilly mentioned above. See the MSN weather forecasts, there is a link on each called 'averages'. Check these out for Isles of Scilly and New York, and by adding the maximums and minimums together in each case, and then dividing by 24, you would get a difference of just 0.5C between the two locations' annual temperature --- 12.3C on the Isles of Scilly and 12.8C in New York for the annual average. I have just worked it out.

• I think you have to take precipitation into account. Jolly Ω Janner 17:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Tucscon Arizona

This is joke, right?

It is subtropical from a temperature standpoint, but certainly not from a precipitation standpoint (way too dry year-round). CrazyC83 (talk) 23:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Subtropical climates don't have to be humid, they can be arid. In fact most of the worlds major deserts such as the Sahara lie in the subtropics. They are defined by their temperatures not by their precipitation. So in this subtropical category there are are climates that are dry all year, climates that are dry in summer, climates that are dry in winter and humid subtropical climates that have adequate rainfall all year round.

You are probably thinking of equatorial (rainforest) climates, but they don't have much to do with subtropical climates. Booshank (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Map

The map found in this page (drawn by a German user) is ridiculous. How can northern Italy be "subtropical" like coastal Somalia (!) while southeastern Spain "warm temperate" like western Russia (see this?--Carnby (talk) 17:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The map is extremely wrong

Yalta is subtropical ? This winter the temperatures went to down to even -14 C/7F , that doesn't sound very subtropical. How can Yalta and most of Australia be in the same category ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaplexis (talk • contribs) 10:12, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It's the map of subtropical climate according to Troll and Paffen. If there are better maps they should be welcomed, but they must be made according to reliable sources.--Carnby (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Subtropical does not mean it can never get very cold. It simply means that average monthly temperature does not fall below freezing. See humid subtropical climate. New York City, where single digit temperatures (below -12 C) occur almost every winter, is still considered to have a subtropical climate because its average January temperature is almost exactly 32 F(0 C). Also, below freezing temperatures occur as far south as central Florida and no one would question that it is subtropical (with the exception of South Florida which is fully tropical).--Mishnayd (talk) 05:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Also remember that for the OC (32F) cutoff on the coldest month, the warmest month must average 22C (72F) or warmer - very important - see the Koppen Classification. Otherwise you need to use the John F Griffiths or Glenn Trewartha Classifications which require the coldest month to be at least averaging 6C (43F) for the John F Griffiths and in the case of the Glenn Trewartha Classification 8 months have to average 10C (50F) or warmer. As regards the Glenn Trewartha classification, it is unlikely that any place conforming with it would have a coldest month averaging below 6C (43F) anyway. If you can find a place where there are 8 months averaging 10C (50F) or better that has a coldest month below 6C (43F) then please type it in the space below. I will be fairly surprised if you can find one.

Checked Wikipedia pages for the following cities —— Shanghai. Nanjing. Wuhan. Hangzhou. That means a huge swath of China, namely right above and below the Yangtze. Also Atlanta, which barely makes it, at 42.7 °F (5.9 °C), and regions to the north of it. Add a degree or two to even Washington's November and it qualifies. Epic fail? ---何献龙4993 (talk) 14:36, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the map could show areas as subtropical if they meet all of the mainstream classifications for subtropical, i.e Koppen, John F Griffiths and Glenn Trewartha classifications. I live in Wellington, New Zealand and i'm surprised that the article lists us as a subtropical climate. It gets neither hot nor cold here. But subtropical? - I wish! 121.73.7.84 (talk) 08:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.244.53 (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Baltimore, Washington DC Subtropical?

How Can you even consider Baltimore or DC subtropical, i do realize that we close to the southern end of the temperate zone, but subtropical? have you tried to grow a palm tree here? or how about visiting us in january where its not uncommon for some sections of the chesapeake bay to freeze and its common for the reflecting pool at the washington monument to freeze. I lived in this region most of my life and even during the warmest winters 95% of our vegitation dies. Also the region averages over 20 inches of snow each winter. If you consider the Baltimore/DC area subtropical then I wonder what is considered a temperate climate maybe "Siberia". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnimos (talk • contribs) 21:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the definition of this climate according to the Koppen system is very broad, much broader than the generally used concept of "subtropical". The coldest month can have an average temperature of between -3C and 18C. That's a very big range - at the colder end you could be in the snows of Baltimore and at the upper end you could be on Durban beach under a coconut palm. Only the warmer climates in this category are what is generally called "subtropical".

Small correction - climatologists in the US use the 0 C (32F) for the bottom end of the range, not -3C. I think the problem is that the scientific meaning of the word "subtropical" and its colloquial use don't match. (Oh, and I've seen palm trees in Maryland) --Mishnayd (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that Koppen never used the term "substropical" for this climate zone but "Sinic" (of China).

Australia

The description of Australia being almost wholly subtropical apart from Tasmania and Victoria is misleading. The northern half of Western Australia, 2/3 of Queensland, and the vast majority of NT lie above the Tropic of Capricorn, and are therefore within the tropics. The northern parts of Western Australia, Queensland, and NT are by even the strictest definition tropical. Calling these regions subtropical is akin to labeling England polar. The NT, in particular, lies almost entirely within the tropics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ailahusky (talk • contribs) 10:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right. The northern half is tropical, not subtropical. The southern half is subtropical except Tasmania. I think anyway that the term subtropical is vague and debatable. Mostly we can refer to the temperate areas between the tropics and the paralel 40. Given that, there are plenty of different climates as well as temperature ranges according to whether these regions are on coastal areas, inland, on eastern coasts, on western coasts, on altitude, etc. Tasmania is not subtropical because it's the only region of Australia higher than the paralel 40.

+ Ozone loss made tropics rainier: Hole over Antarctica changes weather patterns all the way to the equator

Add Ozone loss made tropics rainier: Hole over Antarctica changes weather patterns all the way to the equator by Alexandra Witze May 21st, 2011; Vol.179 #11 (p. 15) in Science News (online April 21 in Science (journal)). Related Ozone hole (Ozone depletion).

The shift happens, Kang says, because ozone loss causes a westerly-flowing atmospheric jet to move further south, which in turn pulls a midlatitude band of dry air south. The region near the equator, in turn, gets wetter. The 1989 Montreal Protocol banned many chlorofluorocarbon chemicals, and scientists expect the ozone hole to recover by midcentury. But rising levels of greenhouse gases also push atmospheric jets southward, so global warming may counteract any changes from the healing ozone hole, says Nathan Gillett of Environment Canada's climate modeling center in Victoria, British Columbia.

Also see Talk:Intertropical Convergence Zone moving North due to global warming. 99.112.213.34 (talk) 02:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Nullarboor plain

Here is a map showing the location of the Nullarbor plain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBRA_6.1_Nullarbor.png

Here is our very own Subtropics map showing the location of the subtropics, which the Nullarbor plain is clearly in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Subtropical.png

Here is a map showing the location of the tropics, which the Nullarbor plain clearly isn't in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tropen.JPG

Once again, your reversion is reverted. Have a nice day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoplophile (talk • contribs) 21:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Those maps are not supported by any sources, you can't use them to cite or claim it has that subtropic climate (it is WP:OR and fails both WP:RS and WP:V by doing so) when in fact it has a semi-arid climate which I stated on your talk page but you have chosen to ignore it. Bidgee (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Northern New Zealand

In this article, northern New Zealand is classified as subtropical. It's certainly pretty mild here most of the time. But in the Oceanic climate article, all of New Zealand is classified as having an Oceanic climate. Are they both right? Kahuroa (talk) 23:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I am taking this to the Oceanic climate talk page in hopes of a response there Kahuroa (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I have replaced the map used on this page - its claimed [source] doesn't mention the Koeppen system, and dates from 1984. Kahuroa (talk) 21:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Köppen climate chart for Australia

There's a lot of debate and OR up above regarding Australian climate zones, with a seemingly strong push to classify a lot of it as sub-tropical. The chart on this page shows how the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, one of three World Meteorological Centres of the World Meteorological Organisation, classifies Australia's climate zones, according to Köppen.

Only a realatively small area is shown as sub-tropical.

I hope this helps. HiLo48 (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Whole Australia has warm/hot climate, there is no cold climates. Australia has tropical Darwin or Alice Springs with hot desert climate (with temperatures as in the African Sahara) and so, for Australian Bureau of Meteorology, Sydney etc has a temperate climate. However, according to world standards, Sydney etc has a subtropical climate (no matter whether variant as Mediterranean climate or subtropical highland variety or humid subtropical climate or subtropical semi-desert/desert climate). In the world does not exist "temperate climate" with winter with average temperatures of 17°C. Australian Bureau of Meteorology is unreliable in this case, ie naming climates in their area. Australian Bureau of Meteorology let the only "guessing" in forecast for tomorrow ;) The second issue, Köppen climate classification is not the only climate classifications on the world (there is at least a few, with at least two assigns subtropical climate for Sydney etc) and even, according the Köppen climate classification Sydney etc has oceanic climate, not "temperate" climate. Subtropical-man (talk) 13:34, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect, to suggest that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology is not a reliable source is absolute nonsense. For Australian climate and weather matters it must be regarded as one the MOST reliable sources. HiLo48 (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I wrote only, Australian Bureau of Meteorology is unreliable in this case, ie naming climates in their area and also explained why. Sydney has temperate climate similarly as Helsinki, Berlin, Glasgow etc? It is absolute nonsense. In 99% looks like a typical humid subtropical climate. Temperatures in Sydney is similar to the African Casablanca and Cape Town with the around 17°C in the coldest month and around 26°C in the warmest month (with the exception of precipitation). But, this cities has subtropical (Mediterranean) climate. It shows that, the ABoM says nonsense. Subtropical-man (talk) 22:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

No, you will have to do a lot better than that to convince me that the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, one of THE three World Meteorological Centres of the World Meteorological Organisation, is an unreliable source. HiLo48 (talk) 21:11, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Canaries Islands ?

The page is protected, I can't not modify it. Canaries islands are (if I don't made a mistake) in the subtropical section.--Newuser0077 (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)