Talk:Tamil people

Work needed

Hello everyone! This article currently appears near the top of the cleanup listing for featured articles, with seven cleanup tags. Cleanup work needs to be completed on this article, or a featured article review may be in order. Please contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. Thank you! Dana boomer (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I will work on some of the issues. Thanks Kanatonian (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I have done the best I can and removed all unsourced sections, dead links I have tried to find or replace. I have also removed weasel words etc. Do let me know of any more issues after you guys run the report again. Kanatonian (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding K. Kamaraj images for prominent tamils

Kamaraj is widely acknowledged as the "Kingmaker" in Indian politics during the 1960s.He was instrumental in bringing to power two Prime Ministers, Lal Bahadur Shastri in 1964 and Indira Gandhi in 1966. He was awarded India's highest civilian honour, the Bharat Ratna in 1976. i think that he was eligible.getnow 10:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Perumalnadar (talk • contribs)

Adding 3 new images of 3 prominent tamils

I am adding three new pics of famous tamils and who are much more recognizable. Mdmday (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

First, a 4X4 panel is too large and ugly. Second, Kamal Hassan and P. Chidambaram are not exactly the most famous and most recognisable in their fields. third, per WP:BRD if someone challenges your additions, discuss in talk page before readding them. add only if consensus is reached. Here i am not agreeing with two of the three pics, you are adding. Unless we reach consensus here dont add them back. Adding before consensus is reached is edit warring--Sodabottle (talk) 09:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Being "ugly" is subjective, unlike you i don't find it ugly. Kamal Hasasn is probably the most popular contemporary Tamil film actors as Rajni is actually a Marathi. Chidambaram is the HM, he is the most senior Tamil politician in the country and the most recognized tamil face among the non Tamil population. Mdmday (talk) 09:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

concede the first point. i like odd numbers, so i am partial to 3X3. i will drop that. But i still dont agree with Kamal and PC. For instance i dont know how PC has become the "the most recognized tamil face among the non Tamil population", he keeps fairly a low profile. Jayalalitha and Karunanidhi are much more recognised than him. And we already have one person from Tamil entertainment field - ARR who is much more recognisable and prominent than Kamal Hassan. If we want a more prominent Tamil from entertainment field M.I.A is a much more recognised face worldwide than Kamal Hassan. If i have to pick one more from entertainemnt and politics, i would pick MIA and karunanidhi/Jayalalitha. --Sodabottle (talk) 09:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

PC is the HM of India, HM is among the most visible and influential leaders in our country, Jaya and Karuna are known but only to Tamil people, not pan India or Pan world. Kamal is a veteran actor with a career span of over 50 years, he is much more senior than Rehman and is as well known as Rehman(if not more) specially if we talk about "face value". MIA is really not well known, she is only known to most people for her music in Slumdog Millionaire. Mdmday (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

What you say is true if we consider only India, but we have to consider recognition worldwide. MIA is far more well known in the world than Kamal (who is known in southern indian states and a few northern urban centers and virtually unknown outside india). HM post is influential in India but PC's isnt that visible India (his style).

I think we have reached an impasse and talking past each other. I will post in the India noticeboard to get more opinion. If no one responds/add inputs in say a week, i will self revert and add your images (as you are only adding more and not replacing, and inclusion is always better etc). Are you ok with this?--Sodabottle (talk) 10:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Are us serious, Kamal is famous all over India, he is well known in almost every part of India and also among the NRI population. MIA is not even known in India, many people haven't even heard of her except S millionaire and PC is visible in India...he is the most visible man in government after Gandhi family and Manmohan Singh....he held the position of FM earlier for almost 5 years so his fame is not new either.

I will like to get those pics back on the page as u said "inclusion is always better...". Mdmday (talk) 10:22, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Like i said this is not about "india alone". its about recognition world wide. Anyway i have posted in the india noticeboard. If no one adds anything more to this discussion, i will self revert in a couple of days and readd your images. --Sodabottle (talk) 10:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Referring the discussion from Notice board.

there are 'n' number of famous tamil people across globe. A person 'popular' for a user might be 'un popular' for another. The argument will be never ending. My suggestion would be we can have seperate sub divisions for each industry and keep their images there. Dumping all cine actors and politicians won't look good for a standard page. If you start with kamal, some one will come up with Rajni. If u say he is not from tamilnadu, again a abig fight will start from there. someother will cpme up with Vijay, Ajith, Silambarasan, Danush etc., etc., and the list will be never ending. Similarily for politicians. Though there are 'n' number of world known personalities, dividing them into groups inside the article will be a solution to accommodte all of them. Still its better leave as such in my opinion. Wasifwasif (talk) 11:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Wasif has got a very valid point on issues that would arise when we deal with top-film stars. I reckon Rahman is good enough for his international standing. In my opinion Sellapan Ramanathan would be the Tamil Politician with highest international standing. Opinion would of course vary on this. As for scientists, I would prefer either MS Swaminathan, CV Raman or Venkarataraman Ramakrishnan rather than Abdul Kalam. No offense meant to Kalam, but anyone who is into science would agree that the three scientists that I have mentioned in the earlier sentence have better contribution to science per se. --Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 15:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

it is all subjective and arguments can be made for both and against a lot of candidates. i would recommend a poll in the India noticeboard page and hope non-Tamil editors' opinion will be helpful. we can make list of candidates for Science, Sports, politics, entertainment categories and conduct the poll either here or at the noticeboard. --CarTick (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's come up with some ground rules so that we can create something like this that is tamper proof German people. Kanatonian (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Kamal is not known anywhere by non-Tamil population outside India,Muralitharan is not known in non-cricket playing ountries.I don't think cricket is a game played by more than 20 countries.M.I.A represent the Tamils of Eelam/Lanka/Ceylon.She voices for them and she is widely known in the western world[[[User:Arun1paladin|Arun1paladin]] (talk) 08:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)arun1paladin]

Ground rules for pictures

1. Max number 10 25 using German people collage as an example
2. No living people Living people acceptable except for politicians ?
3. Should be notable
4. Diapora has 25% 20% of the slots
5. One each for a field
6. Women have 50% of the slots
7. 25 Categories including sub categories to match 1

Thanks for the initiative. we have to begin somewhere. I am not sure if these ground rules are acceptable to everyone to begin with. I am particularly concerned by 2nd and 4th rule. 10 seems less. "German people template" looks good. I feel identifying categories and people first to be the best first step. --CarTick (talk) 18:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I am just adding the names randomly. i havent even checked to make sure if we have images for all of them. please feel free to create categories and add names and we will see what we can do once we have a big list of candidates. i assume we have consensus to add Valluvar and Rajaraja Cholan by default. --CarTick (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

No living people idea would be good for politicians but not be the best for others especially sports. --Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 12:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

A good initiative. Ground rule number 2 won't help much. Its not necessary that a person should die for him to be recognized as world renown. that doesn't make sense to me. Similariy traditional muscians is still a sub heading under entertainment. so removing it.Wasifwasif (talk) 12:26, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

How about defining each category, for example for Business people, the richest Tamil guys by Forbes list of Billionaires ? Kanatonian (talk)

good idea. once we have all the names and images identified, we will decide the number and choose the ones for which we have unanimous support and all others could be chosen by a poll atleast for a month. --CarTick (talk) 00:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I've added a few more to the above list. As far as the no of images I think 9 seems ideal, but on no account should it cross 12 (3 x 4). cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 04:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure under what category does Krishnammal Jagannathan fall under. We might have a picture of her soon, although am not 100% confident about that. --Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 19:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry no free image available which is unfortunate as she was awarded Right Livelihood Award aka Alternate Nobel Prize. --Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 21:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Please undo any change if you guys feels that I over stepped . Kanatonian (talk) 22:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

No.	Name	Category	Nationality	Politics	Music	Cinema	Sports	Science	Business	Literature / Journalism	Religion / Philosophy	Monarchy	Activism (Social / political)	Governance (non-political)	Free image?
1	M. Karunanidhi	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
2	J. Jayalalithaa	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
3	C. N. Annadurai	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	Y	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	Y
4	Rajaji	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	Y
5	R. Venkataraman	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
6	K. Kamaraj	Indian Politician	India	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
7	Sellapan Ramanathan	Non-Indian Politician	Singapore	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
8	Samy Vellu	Non-Indian Politician	Malaysia	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
9	S. Rajaratnam	Non-Indian Politician	Singapore	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
10	Lakshman Kadirgamar	Non-Indian Politician	Sri Lanka	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
11	A. R. Rahman	Entertainment	India	N	Y	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
12	Sivaji Ganesan	Entertainment	India	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
13	Kamal Haasan	Entertainment	India	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
14	Ilaiyaraaja	Entertainment	India	N	Y	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
15	M. S. Subbulakshmi	Music	India	N	Y	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
16	M.I.A. (artist)	European Tamil	UK	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	Y
17	Usha Uthup	Music	India	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
18	Viswanathan Anand	Sports ?	India	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
19	Muttiah Muralitharan	Sports	Sri Lanka	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
20	Vijay Amritraj	Sports	India	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
21	C. V. Raman	Scientist	India	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
22	Srinivasa Ramanujan	Scientist	India	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
23	Abdul Kalam	Scientist	India	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	Y	Y
24	Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar	Scientist	US	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	N
25	Venkatraman Ramakrishnan	Scientist	US	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y
26	Indra Nooyi	American Tamil	US	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	Y
27	Shiv Nadar	Indian Commerce	India	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	Y
28	Kalanidhi Maran	Indian Commerce	India	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N
29	Raj Rajaratnam	Non Indian commerce	US	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N
30	Ananda Krishnan	Non Indian Commerce	Malaysia	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	N
31	Avvaiyar	Literature	Indian	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	Y
32	Tiruvalluvar	Literature	Indian	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	Y	N	N	N	Y
33	R. K. Narayan	Literature	Indian	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	Y	N
34	Ananda Coomaraswamy	Philosopher	Sri Lanka/US	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	Y
35	Taraki Sivaram	Journalist	Sri Lanka	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N
36	Krishnan Guru-Murthy	Journalist	UK	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N
37	George Alagiah	Journalist	UK	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	Y
38	Rajaraja Chola	Indian Royalty	India	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	Y
39	Cankili I	Non-Indian Royalty	Sri Lanka	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	Y
40	Navanethem Pillay	South African Tamil	South Africa	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	Y
41	Kumi Naidoo	International activist	South Africa	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	Y
42	Arumuka Navalar	Non Indian Tamil revivalist	Sri Lanka	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	Y
43	Bodhidharma	Religious leader	India	N	N	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	Y
44	Rajagopala Chidambaram	Indian nuclear scientist and renowed metallurgist	India	N	N	N	N	Y	N	N	N	N	N	Y	N

• I'm replacing the above list with the table, I'll complete the table with the rest of the items from the list in a few minutes. The list was just getting too difficult to parse through with all the modifications and multiple title sections etc. —SpacemanSpiff 18:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

great idea. looking at the table, it becomes clear to me that we are unfortunately limited by unavailability of free images. we may end up having ourselves to contend with narrow set of fields and choices which may not be much different from where we began. I believe we need to ramp up effort to getting free images of these personalities, while dont know how. --CarTick (talk)

We can get a lot of immages by writing to the correct orgsKanatonian (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I am working on a few pics Kanatonian (talk) 15:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Hi. I am giving my simple suggestion here. Firstly people who we are going to place should have the norms meet, including Popular figure, made significant contribution on their field, universal following & appeal. Lastly I would suggest to give more preference on people who have made contribution on civilian grounds sacrificing their own personal life in achieving so. I also suggest including 20 people in the list is a must and as example, check this out Italian people.

My choices and leaving it for open talk here,

Thiruvalluvar, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, Srinivasa Ramanujan, C. N. Annadurai -- 1st Row

Rajaraja Chola, C. V. Raman, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, K. Kamaraj -- 2nd Row

M. S. Subbulakshmi, Muttiah Muralitharan, M. S. Swaminathan, Viswanathan Anand-- 3rd Row

Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, C. Rajagopalachari, Indra Nooyi, A. R. Rahman -- 4th Row

Bharathidasan, Ilaiyaraaja, Vijay Amritraj, Sivaji Ganesan -- 5th Row

I know some names may change here,since it requires larger consensus. But only thing I strongly say, keep atleast 20 people in the list, since we have enough people waiting in the list to cover. looking for some interesting valuable suggestions.

Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 11:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

You version ofthe list seems to be mostly restricted to people of Indian origin and of recent origin. What si wrong with Bodhidharma, M.I.A. for example Kanatonian (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I know that the list i suggested will not be the final. so i am open for possible changes here and there. Yes certainly I support adding Bodhidharma. But not so sure of M.I.A.. I know and heard of her. But including here representing Tamils, not so sure. But if all ok. I am also ok. Finally and very importantly, I will be happy if the list includes as per Italian people standards like rows in order and including minimum of 20 people as we have many waiting in the list like these: R. Venkataraman, Subramanya Bharathy,

C. Subramaniam, Dhanraj Pillay, Ravi Shankar (spiritual leader), S. R. Srinivasa Varadhan etc., --- Ungal Vettu Pillai (talk) 17:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

M.I.A's photo is essential .She is a popular Tamil in the west.She is not from India unlike us.Muthaiyah Muralitharan doesn't represent the Tamils of Eelam (arun1paladin117.193.196.97 (talk) 12:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC))

A new, improved montage

I have made a new montage based on the achievements by people in the State. Just have a look at it, I feel its much better than the present one. So, I removed Muralitharan's image based on the fact that he has not achieved much and replaced Ramanujam's pic with CV Raman as he has won the Bharat Ratna. The people highlighted here are Thiruvalluvar, Rajaraja, Rajagopalachari, MS Subbulakshmi, CV Raman, Kamaraj, Abdul Kalam, Viswanathan Anand and ARR. Also, we are able to distinctly view each person in this one unlike the one used. Plz put forward your opinions. Cheers! Secret of success (Talk) 07:18, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Totally un acceptable. Not representative at all. Two Congress politicians and non from the Dravida parties. No representation from outside Tamil Nadu. --216.123.169.252 (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Music too is divided into classical Carnatic form and many popular genres vs Tamil Isai

The traditional classical Tamil music is known as Tamil Isai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.169.252 (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Tamils are not indigenous/native to any part of Sri Lanka, but to the Tamil country.

The claims in this article that the Tamils are indigenous to north and east of Sri Lanka is not surported by the references given. Kanatonian has reverted my edits without giving any reasons.

1st sentence in question: The indigenous Veddhas are physically related to Dravidian language-speaking tribal people in South India and early populations of Southeast Asia, although they no longer speak their native languages. The reference given is britannica.com and even that does not say any of the above sentence is claiming. What genetical studies show is that Tamils have no genetic affinity to the Veddas. Can the person who wrote this sentence at least say, which dravidian speaking tribes, Veddas are genetically related to, and what are the studies which show these relations?

reply to 1st sentence:

"The Pre-Dravidian jungle tribes of Southern India include the Kadir, Paniyan, Irula, Kurumba and Vedda."Baron Solly Zuckerman Zuckerman, Sir Grafton Elliot Smith, Government Museum (Madras, India) - 2000

"Next after them came another primitive stock, to which the Sakai of Malaya also belong, including the Veddas of Ceylon, the Irula of the Nilgiris, the Panyer of the Wynaad, and many other jungle tribes.."Out of Eden: the peopling of the world - Stephen Oppenheimer - 2004 --MThekkumthala (talk) 16:23, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly my point, these tribes are non-Dravidian and pre-dravidian, so tell me, what do these tribes have to do with Sri Lankan Tamils? These tribes are not Dravidian or Tamil. The ones in south India have either adopted dravidian languages or their languages have got dravidianized, and the Veddas' language has got Sinhalized.

Anyway you are trying to mix these tribes too. As your own sources say, these are pre-dravidian tribes. On page 157, Oppenheimer says that Veddas are a Proto-Australoid tribe, while the Kadar and Paniyan are of Negroid type. So even the tribes are numerous and unrelated and absolutely all of them are not at all dravidians and are PRE-DRAVIDIAN tribes. How can this be relevant to the Sri Lankan Tamils, who are supposed to be dravidians? The sentence under discussion which I deleted yesterday, is totally wrong and is not supported by any scholarly work and a fake reference is given. Even your own sources have proven that, the sentence is totally wrong and trying to present a distorted and fake view. --SriSuren (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

=> Note added 9th January 2012: MThekkumthala has taken off the "citation needed" tag, and has just left the same fake reference. Also he has not been able to give another source which backs up the claims in the sentence in question but has infact proved my point that the Veddas are not Dravidians as implied by the sentence, and the fact the some south Indian tribes have adopted Dravidian languages has no relevance to the Sri Lankan Tamils. Therefore this construction of the sentence with carefully put together pieces cannot be accepted. Kanatonian undid my edit, under 2 minutes (see revision history), and has not yet provided a source nor has he said why he undid my edit. This edit under question first appears here, done by a user who has been blocked for sockpuppetry. If a reliable source which clearly states all the things which are implied in the sentence, is not given within 7 days, I am going to reinstate my edit, i.e I'll delete that sentence. I really do not have to wait even one minute to delete it, as it is referenced with a fake reference, but you have 7 days. --SriSuren (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

=> => Note added 12th January 2012: MThekkumthala has reverted my edit (see his edit #470855300, which is actually a revert) and taken away the "citation needed tag" again (2nd time): when the discussion here has proven beyond any doubt that the statement and the claims made in it is not supported by the citation given, The citation given is this. It is just a few sentences on the Veddas. Moreover I see that he is arguing for the complete opposite here and here and here and possibly other places, i.e he is arguing that Dravidians are not related to the Austroloids and clearly distinguishing the Dravidians from both what he calls Austroloids and Negritos. His own arguments and references do not support this sentence in this article, which he is hell bound on keeping to promote a political view, while arguing for the complete opposite in the Dravidian people's article!!! The fact is that Veddas are not related to the Sri Lankan Tamils genetically or linguistically and the sentence under discussion here is purely a false construction, which is not even in the reference given.MThekkumthala's behaviour is disruptive and totally dishonest and he deliberately conceals facts and distorts facts to promote a political agenda. This is not acceptable. Therefore I am reinstating the "citation needed" tags and request him to come to an agreement here, before he reverts my edits. You have appr. 4 days remaining to find a reference which supports your claims, before that sentence is deleted. --SriSuren (talk) 15:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

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2nd sentence in question: It is believed that cultural diffusion, rather than migration of people, spread the Sinhalese and Tamil languages from peninsular India into an existing Mesolithic population, centuries before the Christian era. This is a sentence which is a distortion of the discussion in the reference given. It goes without saying that the Sinhalese language cannot diffuse from anywhere, since it is not found anywhere else and was formed in the island from a primitive Prakrit, while the Tamil language was formed and developed in Tamilakam and still found there. And the movement of Tamils from the Tamil country is very well documented in Tamil literature itself, eg. Yalpana Vaipava Malai.

Also, the theory that Tamils are the original inhabitants of the island is not a scholarly theory, but a political claim. Mentioning these fringe theories in Wikipedia brings down the quality and reliability of Wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia.

Therefore I am reinstating my edits and will be correcting other edits too. If this is to continue I want a dispute resolution, with Wikipedia administrators present. This section is also present in the Sri Lankan Tamil article and there is a lot of stuff in that article too, which are completely false and references do not support what is claimed. SriSuren (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

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This is what a search on one of the two references given to support the theory that the Tamils are the original people of SL returned:

A. "History of Ceylon Tamils" by V. Natarajan:

B. The other being this: Manogaran, C. Ethnic Conflict and Reconciliation in Sri Lanka In this book, out of the blue, the author claims that the Yakshas and Nagas mentioned in the Mahavamse MUST have been the ORIGINAL Tamil people. :) --SriSuren (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

How can these (i.e A and B, note that A does not even exist) be regarded as scholarly theories? --SriSuren (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The section on Sri Lankan Tamils in the article says: "There is little scholarly consensus over the presence of the Tamil people in Sri Lanka..." but in the opening paragraph itself, the editor(s) STATE the highly disputed and contraversial claim that Tamils are native (meaning indigenous) to Sri Lanka as a FACT!! If there is no scholarly consensus as the editors themselves have acknowledged, how can they state that the Tamils are native/indigenous to Sri Lanka? Moreover, for some thing to be native or indigenous to a specific place it has to originate/be formed in that place, the length of time is not the issue. Tamils and the Tamil language originated and formed in Tamilakam, therefore that is where all Tamils are native to. Also the article defines Tamils as one ethnic group, and then states that the Tamils are native to Tamil Nadu AND Northeast of Sri Lanka; which literally means that Tamils in Tamil Nadu are also indigenous to Sri Lanka. While in the article on "Sri Lankan Tamils" it is stated that Sri Lankan Tamils are a section of the Tamils who are indigenous to Sri Lanka. The questions which arise from these contradictory claims which each of them taken separately contradicts each other too, are many - one being: how can some Tamils be indigenous to Sri Lanka while other Tamils are not? The conclusion is that some editors are trying to pass off politically motivated fringe theories about Tamils being indigenous to Sri Lanka as accepted facts. --SriSuren (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

again there is no controversy in claiming Lankan Tamils were indigenous people.

https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=book+#hl=en&safe=off&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=sri+lanka+indigenous+tamil&pbx=1&oq=sri+&fp=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b--MThekkumthala (talk) 16:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The books on the first page of your search results, do not equate the term indigenous with native, or original inhabitants and some of them are talking of Tamil Nadu Tamils, who ofcourse are indigenous to Tamil nadu. As explained earlier, indigenous also refers to populations/communities which were present in a given country, prior to the colonial powers came to our countries. What is claimed in this Wikipedia article on Tamil people, is that the Tamils were the original people and that they are native to Sri Lanka, in the same way they are native to Tamil nadu. This is a politically motivated claim, and not the real situation at all. The migration of Tamils to Sri Lanka happened after the Tamil nation was formed in Tamilakam and the colonization of the north and east of Sri Lanka by the Tamils, is very well documented in historical documents and inscriptions of the Tamils and the Sinhalese. Native/indigenous people evolve into distinct nations, in their own territories, they do not come ready-made as the Sri Lankan Tamils did. --SriSuren (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I am totally confused with the discussion here. I only reverted Srisurens removal of a cited sentence, nothing to do with Vedda's. Infact I have now rewrote the sentence to mirror exactly what the citation says. Kanatonian (talk) 04:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Names for Sri Lanka in Sangam literature

The user MThekkumthala has reverted (see his revision # 470855052 done today 12th January 2012, which is actually another of his reverts) my referenced edit twice:
-His first revert: 7 January 2012‎‎, Reason given : unreliable sinhalese source!!
Then he opens this discussion in my user page, claiming all sorts rubbish, and says that I can do my edit if I give him 3(!) reliable sources. !!
--I reinstated my edit with reference to the Madras University lexicon, on the 9th of January, after the discussion since it was clear that it was not the reference the trouble was with, but the trouble was that he doesn't want to include this information.
-His second revert: Today (12th January 2012), he reverts my edit again. See his edit (revision # 470855052). Reason given: no consensus.!!
What does he want as reference? The whole of the Sangam literature in their originals? MThekkumthala please state what are your criteria for a reliable reference? --SriSuren (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a need to clarify which sources have more weight. --MThekkumthala (talk) 08:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Really? You are trying to confuse and start a discussion about sources, either because you do not know what you are disputing, or because you are just plain and pure dishonest. This is not about secondary sources, but about the names which were used for Sri Lanka in the Sangam literature, sources being the bulk of Sangam literature, itself. You'll first have to erase the whole bulk of ancient Tamil literature spanning over two millenia, and then come back and talk about sources, if you want to dispute this. Problem is you are trying to change the ancient landscape and territories attested by Tamil literature itself, to fit the Tamil separatist agenda - very futile attempt. --SriSuren (talk) 01:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion about Singhalam versus Eelam is a red herring, both words are not needed to make the point as cited by the reliable sources. Kanatonian (talk) 04:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The point is, in that sentence Eelam is used to give a specific impression, i.e that Sri Lanka was a Tamil country, because Eelam got associated with the Tamil seperatism, in the last decades. So, if Eelam is to be mentioned Cinkalam should also be mentioned to balance the weight. Cinkalam is the name used in the list of 18 countries and also in the list of 56 countries, so it is not just another name, and it was outside Tamil territory. As for your socalled cited information: no citation has been still given for the reverts you did, (some of) which I have listed above to get explainations from the opposing editors. The message one gets, when one reads this article, especially the parts and references on/to Sri Lankan Tamils is that, it is a failed attempt to construct history, as parts of it contradicts with other parts and also what is being claimed elsewhere or established facts - Eg. like what I have already proven about the sentence about the Veddas in the discussion with Mthekkumthala. When you compare this jumble of distorted and dubious statements, which you call 'cited information', to the Sinhalese people's history, one immediately gets the impression that they have a well defined history, with a natural flow, while Tamils just have a list of dubious pieces of incidents or isolated occurances of potsherds, which cannot be linked to an independant Tamil country in the island in anyway or a continuous independant Tamil kingdoms/settlements (until the invasion in the 13th century and the establishment of the Jaffna kingdom); at best, this "list" proves that Tamils coming from the mainland have had small settlements with purposes connected to the Sinhalese people and have been interacting with the Sinhalese. Therefore much of what you call 'cited information' is, either distorted statements of which some have fake citings and many of the sentences in this jumble of sentences do not make sense, either taken alone or as a whole. The point to be taken is that one cannot construct or change history, because it has already happened. I still want the citation to the sentence about the Veddas. --SriSuren (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Sri lanka has been known as Lanka right since the days of the Ramayana was written most Sangam Literature and all ancient Hindu,Buddhist,Jain text use that name .İlankai or Eelam in Tamil. It has been refered to as Lankadeepa and later on Ceylon has been used.Any other name will be WP:Undue.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Undue weight? Undue weight comes into the picture only when Cinkalam is mentioned? More like supression of information. Also, this is about the names used for Sri Lanka in Sangam literature, not about colonial names. Cinkalam must be mentioned if Eelam is mentioned, that is called balancing undue weight or giving due weight. See also my answer to Kanatonian, above. Sri Lanka was also known as Sinhala in the Mahabharata, which I suppose is one of the ancient Hindu texts you forgot mention, and it predates Ramayana. All the names you mention are derived from the word Sinhala, except Lanka/Ilankai. --SriSuren (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a not WP:NOTAFORUM about Political issues what you said is not relevant here SriSuren you said in you reply to Kanatonian above The point is, in that sentence Eelam is used to give a specific impression, i.e that Sri Lanka was a Tamil country, because Eelam got associated with the Tamil seperatism, in the last decades. So, if Eelam is to be mentioned Cinkalam should also be mentioned to balance the weight. Please political issues are not a reason if Eelam/Ilankai was used so be it if Cinkalam or Lanka is used so be it .We will stick with WP:RS sources.Please note there are few others are also involved sadly 2 of them are blocked .We need to get them also involved.We do not want an edit war .We will make the changes only after getting WP:RS sources Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Suren, I agree with you, using the sentence known in Tamil litrature as Eelam, Dravidian speaking tribals, all these are POV sections intend to convey a narrow point of view. It was addeded by people who add them and then run away from these articles for us to deal with it later. My contention is using known as Cingalam is also a POV especially from a Sinhalese nationalist point of view. The article Eelam deals with all etymological connotations in a neutral manner where it indicated Thomas Borrow a famous Dravidian language expert questions the Sinhala->Eela derivation. So let's leave it at and leave both the words out of the sentence and just deal with the subject matter in a neureal point of view. Kanatonian (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

IP 174.116.247.61's edits

IP 174.116.247.61 has been adding Bodhidharma in the montage in hte infobox. He seems to be aware of the controvery -Bodhidharma/Birthplace sources over bodhidharma's lineage. When such controversies and disputes exist, please dont put them in the montage. Only clear cut and uncontroversial choices have to be included in the montage. I have already removed your additions a couple of times - please dont add them again. If someone disagrees with your additions discuss them and try to establish consensus.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

• I agree Kanatonian (talk) 04:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Bodhidarama new section

He has to be added to the list of Tamil people. So I want all you Tamil guys to help find proof, eg video, website, articles that he was a Tamilian. We must not let the other people make us forget our history. If we all find proof, then Bodhidharma will be on the article of Tamil people. Our Tamil History must not be forgotten and changed by any outsiders.

Thank you

அவர் தமிழ் மக்கள் பட்டியலில் சேர்க்க வேண்டும் வருகிறார். எனவே நான் ஆதாரம், எ.கா. வீடியோ, வலைத்தளம், அவர் ஒரு Tamilian என்று கட்டுரைகள் கண்டுபிடிக்க உதவ அனைத்து தமிழ் தோழர்களே வேண்டும். நாம் மற்ற மக்கள் எங்கள் வரலாற்றில் மறக்க செய்ய விடமாட்டேன் வேண்டும். நாம் அனைத்து ஆதாரம் கிடைத்தால், பிறகு Bodhidharma தமிழ் மக்களின் கட்டுரையில் இருக்கும். நம் தமிழ் வரலாறு எந்த வெளி மறந்து மற்றும் மாற்ற வேண்டும்.

நன்றி — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.247.61 (talk) 22:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you change the history?

History cannot be changed just be editing these articles as per one's convenience.why was the statement which testifies presence of Vedic religion was being deleted? Nijgoykar (talk) 05:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

This is about Tamil people, Vedic religious viewes developed in the Gangetic plains and spread around the world. Kanatonian (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This is about Tamil people's relation to Vedic religion. Since they do have mention in Tolkaipiyam, it is justified, in the first place that there is mention of Vedism (and it predates the oldest Sangam Literature) by merit of mention.

Secondly, Vedism predates the evidence, this was the object of discontent between Sodabottle and I. Evidence has been provided as proof and this evidence has also been deleted."History cannot be changed just be editing these articles as per one's convenience.why was the statement which testifies presence of Vedic religion was being deleted?"

Please do not counteredit before you supply evidence Kanatonian.I.e-leave the page until after consensus/mediation, like Sodabottle has said. I'm going to revert the changes as that was how it was when mediation was initiated.the object of discontent? whose? Personal opinions do not count here.Tamil Culture would have not been what it is now at all if acculturation has not happened.If Buddhism,Jainism and Vedic religion had not influenced it.Cultures do not flourish without give and take. Then what about the Velirs,Agastya rishi? is that not also an object of discontent ? Supported by the argument that Tolkāppiyam has mentioned Vedism (among others); the Sanggam Era does not predate Vedism. Sodabottle contends that that was the view of Michael Danino whom I quoted so other citations were provided. It is indeed agreed upon that the oldest extant work of Tamil literature was written by Jains. Demonblader (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Demonblader

Looks like you are treating creating a encyclopaedia project as a WP:Battle about a POV you seem to care very much. What is the relevance of the discussion we are having here about the time line of Vedic religion and Tamil people ? What is clear is just like Cambodians, Vietnamese, Malays and many others Tamils were introduced the Vedic principles along with Buddhism and Jainism and any other religions from North India at some point in history. What is the relevance of mentioning that one showed up few years before others in the WP:Lead? I fail to see the justification of your edit other than to create controversy. If you want to write in details about timelines the correct place is Religion in ancient Tamil country not Lead of the Tamil people article. Also your arguments are not well written or coherent. I had a hard time following it. So try to break it down into understandable bits so we can discuss about it. Thanks Kanatonian (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I have also decoupled the realtionship between Sangam era and spread of Vedic religion, Buddhism and Jainism so that the sentences stand on their own without any controversy . What is your opinion ? Kanatonian (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

hiding the truth, calling it controversial. One might think that it is not I that have special interest here. What's with the hate? WP:NP The relevance of 1)Vedic Religion or any of the other main religions affecting Tamil religion like Buddhism and Jainism are simply that they did have a role to play in Tamil people and culture becoming who and what they are today. 2)The relevance of the timeline is such that there is a clear detailing of how these influences came about. 3) There is no controversy about fact 4)Read the guidelines, this is not to be about subject content! A few years and a few hundred years are different, and it is simply that one culture begin to fade where another began. These aren't arguments yet, Kanatonian, just me laying the background out for further study and consensus. 1) It is agreed among scholars that Jains did write the oldest extant Tamil literature and that Buddhists were an influence to this culture. 2) That customs of Vedic Religion are mentioned in this piece of literary evidence. 3) That this is relevant because it is a cultural and religious influence rather than simply religious; it is part of what defines Tamilians thus rendering necessary a timeline. :::Kanatonian, that's better but doesn't quite clarify the 'controversy'. It isn't a statement of fact. I'm reverting it.

Vedic & Puranic Culture—Literary Evidence An early text, the Tamil grammar Tolkappiyam, ..first or second century AD,[*] is “said to have been modelled on the Sanskrit grammar of the Aindra school.” ..shows that “the great literature of Sanskrit and the work of its grammarians and rhetoricians were well known and provided stimulus to creative writers in Tamil.." The Tolkappiyam adopts the entire Rasa theory as worked out in the Natya Sastra of Bharata.” It also refers to rituals and customs coming from the “Aryans,” a word which in Sangam literature simply means North Indians of Vedic culture ; for instance, the Tolkappiyam “states definitely that marriage as a sacrament attended with ritual was established in the Tamil country by the Aryas,”..uses the same eight forms of marriage found in the Dharmashastras..mentions the caste system or “fourfold jathis” in the form of “Brahmins, Kings, Vaishyas and Vellalas,” ..calls Vedic mantras “the exalted expression of great sages.” http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/tamilculture.html

Zvelebil, Kamil. 1973. The smile of Murugan on Tamil literature of South India. Leiden: Brill. - Zvelebil dates the Ur-Tolkappiyam to the 1st-2nd BCE, that eventually shaped the culture of the Tamilians.

Aiyangar, Sakkottai Krishnaswami (1923). Some contributions of South India to Indian culture Calcutta University readership lectures. Asian Educational Services,. pp. 429 pages( see Chapter II,The pre-Buddhist character of Brahminism in the Tamil country,pages:48-58). ISBN 8120609999, 9788120609990. 

Many authors however, ascribe the work to Jaina traditions and the earliest of the possibly many authors, who has been identified as Tolkappiyanaar to a heterodox Jaina order. S. Vaiyapuri Pillai has suggested that Tolkappiyanaar may have belonged to a heterodox Jaina grammatical tradition called aintiram(a view which other scholars like Burnell, Takanobu and Zvelebil share)...

Demonblader (talk) 07:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)Demonblader

Kanatonian, all our views are incorporated in the last edit, why are you resuming the editting? I'll return it to how it was during mediation, okay?. Sorry for attempting to incorporate provided input. Reason for reverting: Pending mediation Demonblader (talk) 19:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)demonblade

The significance of this edition to WP:LEAD is that it clarifies what is wrongly stated there, that Sangam literature is pre-existent compared to Vedism with WP:LEADCITE WP:MOSBEGIN. Not drawing any comparisons between the two as one is religion and one is literary work, the edit seeks to provide that Sangam Literature was influenced by the community surrounding Tamilians of that time. You're right, Kanatonian, this is not a WP:BATTLE. But the viewpoint added is WP:NPOV. I see the interest in changing the article for you as you may be of the viewpoint that one actually predates the other but the problem there is WP:WIN WP:SOURCES. It's a common ideology, but not relevant encyclopedic content.

Remember WP:AOBF [multiple reverting]] In short: Edit is 1) relevant 2) verifiable 3) apolitical Another thing, Religion in Ancient Tamil Country and this article cannot have contradicting fact. I will consider editting that too. Thanks for the tip. Your edits on the Tamil People page.. Don't revert without discussion.