Talk:Theory

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"It must come with a number of conditions under which it has been proven true"

I had removed this i.m.o. vague and incomprehensible (and unsourced) phrase which was inserted by Environnement2100 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). Environnement2100 re-inserted the phrase and left this on my talk page. This message didn't clear up, nor explain much, let alone provide a source. I also think that the statement is just wrong, after all, we all know that theories can at best falsified, but never proven true. Edit-warring is not really on priority list, but I think this phrase should be removed again.

Comments? DVdm (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

As there were no comments, I assume that there is no objection to the removal of the phrase, so I went ahead and removed it. DVdm (talk) 09:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Name change proposal: "Theory and practice"

As mentioned above this article certainly needs discussion of the theory/practice distinction which is the basis of the whole meaning of this word in modern European languages. There is also no discussion of practice in any Wikipedia article. I think there is no point having two articles, as the two terms make sense in contrast to each other.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

• disagree there are wikipedia articles on Praxis (process), practice (social theory) and also Craft. The existing article certainly needs to define theory in relation to practice, but to give the article this title would serve only to confine its scope purely to this matter, rather than allowing it to embrace all the various aspects of theory. Riversider (talk) 14:11, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

What happens if someone is looking up the word practice in the sense covered by this article?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Good question, I think there is definitely a case for a disambiguation page, or some other wikiartefact to point people in the right direction. The fact remains though that this article is about more than just the difference between theory and practice, so adopting such a title would be an unneccessary stricture. Riversider (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Possibly a solution can be found in that direction?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:05, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• I disagree that the name of this article (Theory) should be changed. Perhaps the Theory and practice article could be absorbed into this article as a little (currently 5th) section Theory#Theory versus practice or something? DVdm (talk) 15:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

"Theoretical-only"

Can some things be theoretical and also non-theoretical (i.e. actual?)? If so, then there may need to be such a distinction as "theoretical-only" or similar, making it clear that certain things cannot exist or won't exist, or probably don't exist. Or maybe all three of those things from the last sentence could do with a distinctive name, or maybe I'm completely missing the point. For example, the ideal gas article refers to molecules of zero mass. Can this exist? I'd suspect not, therefore, some acknowledgement of that along-side the word "theoretical" might be useful. A good idea? --Rebroad (talk) 09:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The use of words like "only in theory" to refer to impossible abstractions is in my opinion something best handled as a word use variant at wiktionary? Although it is common, there are other ways to refer to such abstraction which would not use the word theory. Perhaps there could be a mention of this usage in the article and a link to a more appropriate article, but what article would that be? (Wikipedia is not normally just a collection of word meaning information. See WP:NOT.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Whose "theory"?

Sorry to butt in, but there is a long-simmering conflict between how scientists use the word "theory" and laypeople understand it which has led to endless confusion. What I did is check dictionary definitions and considered basic understandings. What's written is a suggestion for development. Another thing to consider is that some people don't read beyond the first paragraph(s) so that first paragraph should function as an abstract or a brief overview. Margaret9mary (talk) 22:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

What is your concrete proposal?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't realize you'd already edited. Will look.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:20, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, so you see this as a battle between philosophy and science? I do not like that approach. The "philosophical" meaning of a word like theory is really the broadest and oldest meaning and therefore the only one which helps makes sense of all the specialist meanings. If you move narrow meanings of a word to the top of an article, without any rationale for making that meaning the main one, you'll just start an edit war with people from different fields reverting each other whether it be slowly or quickly. For reference below are the two versions.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Old version

In philosophy, theory (from ancient Greek theoria, θεωρία, meaning "a looking at, viewing, beholding") refers to contemplation or speculation, as opposed to action. Theory is especially often contrasted to "practice" (Greek praxis, πρᾶξις) a concept that in its original Aristotelian context referred to actions done for their own sake, but can also refer to "technical" actions instrumental to some other aim, such as the making of tools or houses. "Theoria" is also a word still used in theological contexts.

A classical example uses the discipline of medicine to explain the distinction: Medical theory and theorizing involves trying to understand the causes and nature of health and sickness, while the practical side of medicine is trying to make people healthy. These two things are related but can be independent, because it is possible to research health and sickness without curing specific patients, and it is possible to cure a patient without knowing how the cure worked.

The word θεωρία apparently developed special uses early in the Greek language. In the book, From Religion to Philosophy, Francis Cornford suggests that the Orphics used the word "theory" to mean 'passionate sympathetic contemplation'. Pythagoras changed the word to mean a passionate sympathetic contemplation of mathematical and scientific knowledge. This was because Pythagoras considered such intellectual pursuits the way to reach the highest plane of existence. Pythagoras emphasized subduing emotions and bodily desires in order to enable the intellect to function at the higher plane of theory. Thus it was Pythagoras who gave the word "theory" the specific meaning which leads to the classical and modern concept of a distinction between theory as uninvolved, neutral thinking, and practice.

While theories in the arts and philosophy may address ideas and not easily observable empirical phenomena, in modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" is generally understood to refer to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with the scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it. In this modern scientific context the distinction between theory and practice corresponds roughly to the distinction between theoretical science and technology or applied science.

New version being proposed

The word theory, when used by scientists, refers to an explanation of reality that has been thoroughly tested so that most scientists agree on it. It can be changed if new information is found. Theory is different from a working hypothesis, which is a theory that hasn't been fully tested; that is, a hypothesis is an unproven theory.
The word theory also distinguishes ideas from practice. The words empirical and clinical are also used to distinguish theory from practice. This is different from laypeople's use of the word theory which is usually used to mean an idea that isn't certain, that is not reality.

Explanation (so all this now split into a new section)

In philosophy, theory (from ancient Greek theoria, θεωρία, meaning "a looking at, viewing, beholding") refers to contemplation or speculation, as opposed to action. Theory is especially often contrasted to "practice" (Greek praxis, πρᾶξις) a concept that in its original Aristotelian context referred to actions done for their own sake, but can also refer to "technical" actions instrumental to some other aim, such as the making of tools or houses. "Theoria" is also a word still used in theological contexts.

A classical example uses the discipline of medicine to explain the distinction: Medical theory and theorizing involves trying to understand the causes and nature of health and sickness, while the practical side of medicine is trying to make people healthy. These two things are related but can be independent, because it is possible to research health and sickness without curing specific patients, and it is possible to cure a patient without knowing how the cure worked.

The word θεωρία apparently developed special uses early in the Greek language. In the book, From Religion to Philosophy, Francis Cornford suggests that the Orphics used the word "theory" to mean 'passionate sympathetic contemplation'. Pythagoras changed the word to mean a passionate sympathetic contemplation of mathematical and scientific knowledge. This was because Pythagoras considered such intellectual pursuits the way to reach the highest plane of existence. Pythagoras emphasized subduing emotions and bodily desires in order to enable the intellect to function at the higher plane of theory. Thus it was Pythagoras who gave the word "theory" the specific meaning which leads to the classical and modern concept of a distinction between theory as uninvolved, neutral thinking, and practice.

While theories in the arts and philosophy may address ideas and not easily observable empirical phenomena, in modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" is generally understood to refer to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with the scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it. In this modern scientific context the distinction between theory and practice corresponds roughly to the distinction between theoretical science and technology or applied science.

New Proposal

Originally the word theory is a technical term from Ancient Greek. It is derived from theoria, θεωρία, meaning "a looking at, viewing, beholding") refers to contemplation or speculation, as opposed to action. Theory is especially often contrasted to "practice" (Greek praxis, πρᾶξις) a concept that in its original Aristotelian context referred to actions done for their own sake, but can also refer to "technical" actions instrumental to some other aim, such as the making of tools or houses. "Theoria" is also a word still used in theological contexts.

A classical example uses the discipline of medicine to explain the distinction: Medical theory and theorizing involves trying to understand the causes and nature of health and sickness, while the practical side of medicine is trying to make people healthy. These two things are related but can be independent, because it is possible to research health and sickness without curing specific patients, and it is possible to cure a patient without knowing how the cure worked.

While theories in the arts and philosophy may address ideas and not easily observable empirical phenomena, in modern science the term "theory", or "scientific theory" is generally understood to refer to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with the scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it. In this modern scientific context the distinction between theory and practice corresponds roughly to the distinction between theoretical science and technology or applied science. A distinction is often made in science between theories and hypotheses, which are theories that are not considered to have been satisfactorily tested or proven.

And to be moved to a new section called something like "Other Ancient Uses"

The word θεωρία apparently developed special uses early in the Greek language. In the book, From Religion to Philosophy, Francis Cornford suggests that the Orphics used the word "theory" to mean 'passionate sympathetic contemplation'. Pythagoras changed the word to mean a passionate sympathetic contemplation of mathematical and scientific knowledge. This was because Pythagoras considered such intellectual pursuits the way to reach the highest plane of existence. Pythagoras emphasized subduing emotions and bodily desires in order to enable the intellect to function at the higher plane of theory. Thus it was Pythagoras who gave the word "theory" the specific meaning which leads to the classical and modern concept of a distinction between theory as uninvolved, neutral thinking, and practice.

---

Comments please? The above is based on the latest proposal and the most recent version before it.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I have a comment. In both the old version and the proposed new version, the first paragraph ends with "... that is, a hypothesis is an unproven theory."

This is a grossly misleading statement. I am not trying to nitpick, but the fact is that no theories are ever "proven". They can only be disproven. So while a hypothesis is, indeed, unproven, theories themselves are also unproven, so trying to use this statement to distinguish the two makes no sense whatever.

That theories cannot be proven is logically correct, and has not been a matter of debate for at least a couple of hundred years. Theories necessarily fit the known evidence, and may be inductively judged to be correct, but that is far from the same as "proven". They are merely testable hypotheses that have -- so far -- passed the tests. History is replete with theories that have later been disproved... therefore they cannot be said to have been "proven" in the first place. They merely fit the evidence that is known at the time.

While I am unsure what may be a good, and correct, substitute for that sentence fragment (perhaps something like "a theory must be testable and has withstood known tests"), the phrase as currently used is just plain wrong. -- Jane Q. Public (talk) 02:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone want to propose a better last sentence?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I just looked at it again. This sentence is only in the current wording, and not in the older version described above, nor the newer proposal I made as a potential compromise, and which no one has really responded to. Perhaps I've left this discussion open too long. I shall be bold and put the compromise in.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

"Only a theory"

The article starts to touch on this public misunderstanding of the word "theory" by discussing "theoretical" but never quite reaches the colloquialism. This really should be addressed someplace since it is so often used. Student7 (talk) 21:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Please explain in more detail what you mean. Are you talking about for example the case of people who say the theory of evolution is only a theory?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

That sort of thing. "Theoretical" touches on this but does not address the exact wording used by the public at large which has a different understanding of the term. Seems easy to insert but needs encyclopedia tone and references. Student7 (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Isn't a Theory, a Theory?

Just one thing. I'm explaining alittle more along the lines of the article above. Isn't something called a theory, because that's what it is? Just a theory? Most people confuse "theory" with "fact". Like the Big Bang theory, or the theory of evolution. A Theory is something that could be true, not something that is true. The sad thing is, most schools are teaching theories like those above, as fact. I just wanted to make that clear.Carleen6 (talk) 20:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S.= How do I get rid of the box surrounding my text? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carleen6 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It is the spaces at the start of each line doing it. Do you have a source for this distinction between facts and theories? I'd say that your position is a common misunderstanding. You are apparently making a statement about modern science, but modern science does not recognize absolute truth, so there is nothing qualitatively above a theory.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect article reference. (?)

Under References is listed the following book:

   Mohr, Johnathon (2008). "Revelations and Implications of the Failure of Pragmatism: 
   The Hijacking of Knowledge Creation by the Ivory Tower". New York: Ballantine Books. pp. 87–192.

Problem: The underlined reference to the author is a generic page on the name "Mohr", not a reference to the author.

Problem: A search of the internet using Google shows many Wiki references to this book, but no listing of the title or author.

Problem: A search at both Amazon.com and Biblio.com finds neither an author or title of the listed reference.

I believe that this entry dhould be corrected or removed.

Respectfully Submitted,

    Chip Griffin  
    September 6, 2011

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.103.97 (talk) 04:03, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it. I see no good purpose it was serving, and I also could not anything except an amazing number of obvious wiki mirrors. Have you also looked at the other works in the references?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:26, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect article reference. (?) - Followup

Thank you for correcting the reference error.

No, I did not check the other references, but they "seemed" valid from my earlier readings. When I find time, I will check them.

(It seems odd that none of them are underlined. This would indicate a link to the source. The notes above seem to have valid hypertext references.)

Chip Griffin September 7, 2011 at 1:20pm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.103.97 (talk) 20:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Reason for recent edit

I have re-deleted two passages from the article's section "Theories as models", after my original deletion was reverted without explanation.

First, it originally said that theories "explain, predict, and master phenomena", and I deleted "master". To explain or predict phenomena has a scientific meaning, whereas to "master" phenomena does not.

Second, I deleted the passage

[A scientific theory's] statements [can be thought of] as axioms of some axiomatic system.

That is not true. Some of a theory's statements are axioms, and some are not.

Third, I deleted

The aim of [a scientific theory's] construction is to create a formal system for which reality is the only model.

Reality is the model of the formal system? Nope. The formal system is a model of reality.

Fourth, I deleted

The world is an interpretation (or model) of such scientific theories, only insofar as the sciences are true.

No, the scientific theories are interpretations of the world, not vice versa. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Theory versus Hypothesis

It is incorrect to claim that "a theory is an hypothesis that has survived extensive testing."

The difference between an hypothesis and a theory is one of kind, not of degree.

An hypothesis is a single testable statement. Any hypothesis can be restated as single question. A theory is a body of knowledge about a certain subject, organized according to a particular paradigm. A theory necessarily involves the exploration of how certain ideas relate to other ideas within the subject matter. A theory will normally have at its foundation multiple hypotheses. It is absurd to claim that an hypothesis can become a theory via extensive confirmation. To form a theory from an hypothesis requires not confirmation, but rather elaboration.

Theories can be revised as new evidence arises. Is it often possible to modify a small part of theory without requiring major changes to the theory as a whole. In contrast, an hypotheses is generally all or nothing - its either kept or replaced depending on how it fits with newly discovered evidence; incremental tweaking of an hypothesis is only rarely possible, thus failed hypotheses are normally replaced rather than modified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waynemv (talk • contribs) 21:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your well-articulated explanation of the difference. I hope you like, or will improve on, my modification of that part of the article. Duoduoduo (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I think your modification is brilliant, and better stated than I could have done. Waynemv (talk) 04:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)