Talk:Thomas Cromwell

Info?

Nearly all the information from this page has been deleted. It should be restored to what it was under a previous more complete edit. wtf?

I don't understand the above comment. I can't find a previous page with lots of text that has been deleted.--Caleb Murdock 09:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Title for the Dissolution

I changed the job Cromwell had which gave him the authority to dissolve the monasteries. I've read that: Cromwell's titles of vicar-general and vicegerent in spirituals should be kept apart; it was as vicar-general that he visited the monasteries, but as vicegerent that he presided in Convocation. - G. R. Elton, Studies in Tudor and Stuart Politics and Government: Vol. One, p. 43.--Johnbull 20:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Henry VIII regretted executing Cromwell

I have read that Henry VIII regretted executing Cromwell, but I don't know much of the details of that. This is one of the things that makes Cromwell a fascinating figure: his rise to power under a mercurial king, and then his downfall for making just one mistake. Someone who is more knowledgeable should add that information to the article.--Caleb Murdock 09:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Title error

I see at the bottom of the page he is labeled as Secretary of State and then Lord Privy Seal but the article, under the header of "downfall" refers to him as "Chancellor". Can someone clear this up and make the necessary changes please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beautiful1749 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Cromwell was never Lord Chancellor, I have removed the reference to "Chancellor" in the text and replaced it with "King's chief minister" which is I believe an accurate description of his position. 122.104.64.184 (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Moving pages?

We appear to have agreement that this person should be the primary meaining of the term "Thomas Cromwell". Should we handle this by moving this page to Thomas Cromwell, or do we turn Thomas Cromwell to a redirect here? Also, how do we bring in the play Thomas Lord Cromwell? Do we just add a hatband here about the Canadian jurist, or do we treat the play as equal, which means this article would have to have a hatband to a disambiguation page? PatGallacher (talk) 19:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Cromwell Was and Died as a Roman Catholic

It's true that he was a prominent name in the Reformation in England, but before that he was a Roman Catholic and he choose to die in the Roman Catholic faith, like the historical accounts shows. I can provide one example of many that show it: "An act of attainder was passed against him without a dissentient voice, and after contributing his mite towards the divorce of Anne, he was beheaded on Tower Hill on the 28th of July, repudiating all heresy and declaring that he died in the Catholic faith."[1] This is taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica.81.193.214.198 (talk) 00:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

This are the last words of Thomas Cromwell, according to Edward Hall:

"I am come hether to dye, and not to purge my self, as maie happen, some thynke that I will, for if I should do so, I wer a very wretche and miser: I am by the Lawe comdempned to die, and thanke my lorde God that hath appoynted me this deathe, for myne offence: For sithence the tyme that I have had yeres of discrecion, I have lived a synner, and offended my Lorde God, for the whiche I aske hym hartely forgevenes. And it is not unknowne to many of you, that I have been a great traveler in this worlde, and beyng but of a base degree, was called to high estate, and sithes the tyme I came thereunto, I have offended my prince, for the whiche I aske hym hartely forgevenes, and beseche you all to praie to God with me, that he will forgeve me. O father forgeve me. O sonne forgeve me, O holy Ghost forgeve me: O thre persons in one God forgeve me. And now I praie you that be here, to beare me record, I die in the Catholicke faithe, not doubtyng in any article of my faith, no nor doubtyng in any Sacrament of the Churche.* Many hath sclaundered me, and reported that I have been a bearer, of suche as hath mainteigned evill opinions, whiche is untrue, but I confesse that like as God by his holy spirite, doth instruct us in the truthe, so the devill is redy to seduce us, and I have been seduced: but beare me witnes that I dye in the Catholicke faithe of the holy Churche. And I hartely desire you to praie for the Kynges grace, that he maie long live with you, maie long reigne over you. And once again I desire you to pray for me, that so long as life remaigneth in this fleshe, I waver nothyng in my faithe.

And then made he his praier, whiche was long, but not so long, as bothe Godly and learned, and after committed his soule, into the handes of God, and so paciently suffered the stroke of the axe, by a ragged and Boocherly miser, whiche very ungoodly perfourmed the Office."

I think some versions changed some words to say that he died in the "old faith" or the "traditional faith". Reading more carefully his words, it really makes sense that he was refering to the Church of England. The fact that he doesn´t openly names the Church of England might have lead some to think that his references to the Catholic Church were made to the Roman Catholic Church, but I really think that the interpretation that he died in the Anglican faith while renouncing Protestantism really makes more sense.Mistico (talk) 22:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You say "I really think that the interpretation that he died in the Anglican faith while renouncing Protestantism really makes more sense." Looking at the text that is a interesting and good interpretation.

I'm not sure about it however. In 1540, Protestantism (the teachings of Luther or Calvin, etc.) was not particularly rampant in England so as to make renouncing Protestantism in favor of the C.o.E. a thing Cromwell would feel necessary--unless he had been accused of being Protestant. But he does say, in effect "Many have slandered me and accused me of having evil opinions, which is not true, but I confess that while the Holy Spirit guides us in truth, the Devil seduces us and I have been seduced: But hear me now that I die in the Catholic Faith of the Holy Church." It is still ambiguous. He could be saying, "Some say I am Protestant [or Apostate], but I am not, I believe in the Catholic Church of England." Or he could be saying "Some of you may have heard I was an adherent to the wicked tenants of Church of England, but I do not, I believe in the Catholic Church." [It seems to me that latter is a way one might renounce the C.o.E. at the last minute, by adopting the mildly ironic defense against the accusation of *not* being Catholic--knowing the audience knows what it signifies. It's how I would do it.]

The real problem is one of the language at the time. In 1540 could/would Cromwell have used "Catholicke faithe of the holy Churche" to refer to the CoE, in this context? I tend to think it is a reference to Roman Catholicism but below are a some examples that might be informative, particularly the last long segment from a biography of Cromwell:

"Christian people, I am come hither to die for the faith of Christ's holy catholic church; and, I thank God, hitherto my stomach hath served me very well thereunto, so that yet I have not feared death; wherefore I desire you all to help and assist with your prayers, that, at the very point and instant of death's stroke, I may in that very moment stand steadfast without fainting in any one point of the catholic faith, free from any fear. And I beseech Almighty God of his infinite goodness to save the king and this realm, and that it may please him to hold his holy hand over it, and send the king a good council." -- Scaffold speech of Bishop John Fisher (1535).

Henry VIII 's Act of Supremacy (1534): "the Church of England, called Anglicans Ecclesia" and does not use the word Catholic.

"moste hertelie beseachinge theym all to praye for us and to see our bodies buryed accordinge to the Quenys will and pleasur and that we maye have the suffrages of the holie Churche accordyng to the Catholicke faithe wherein we ende our lief in this transitorye worlde." -- Last Will of Anne of Cleves (1557 [Under Mary I])

"The Cardinall of Bourbon, the Chancellor and the three Bishopes that came to Noyon to the Kinge, wherof your Lordship was before advertised, are come to the campe, expreslie to perswade the Kinge to be instructed in their Catholicke faithe, as also to conclude a peace with his subjectes, wherof they seeme to assure the Kinge. Hee putteth them in hope that he wilbe become a Catholicke, as him selfe confesseth to me; and did were two daies together a cloacke of the order of St. Espritt,--wherat the common sorte doe greately rejoice; also he offereth them to conclude a peace with reasonable conditions, which I beleeve to be impossible." -- Correspondence of Sir Henry Unton, knt., ambassador from Queen Elizabeth to Henry IV, king of France, in the years 1591 or 1592.

-------------------

LIFE AND LETTERS OF THOMAS CROMWELL, Vol. 1, BY ROGER BIGELOW MERRIMAN (Oxford-Clarendon, 1902)

[Page 300] [O]n July 28 ' Thomas Cromwell, shearman,' was led forth to execution. In a letter to Francis, Marillac simply mentions the fact of his death 5 , but a more complete account of the end of the great minister is fortunately preserved to us in the chronicles of Holinshed and Hall, and the history of Foxe 6 .

5 Cal. xv. 926.

6 Holinshed, p. 817 ; Hall, p. 839 ;

[301] From the stories of all these chroniclers it appears that Cromwell on the scaffold made an address to the people, declaring the faith in which he died. That his speech was printed and publicly circulated is attested by [Cardinal] Pole; and the fact that Holinshed, Hall, and Foxe give it in almost exactly the same words corroborates the truth of the Cardinal's statement. Pole, however, goes on to say that though at first he accepted the printed speech as a true version of Cromwell's words, he later learned from trustworthy persons that what Cromwell had actually said was something very different 1. The words of the speech certainly have the appearance of being composed beforehand and forced upon Cromwell's dying lips. He confessed that he had done wrong, asked forgiveness of his King, and finally asserted that he died in the Catholic Faith, not doubting in any article of his faith, ' no nor doubting in any Sacrament of the Church 2. This last statement was certainly untrue ; nor would it have been in any way less false, if Cromwell had said that he died a true Protestant 3 . His religious beliefs were, as far as can be discovered, absolutely nothing when disconnected from practical ends, and he probably made his last speech at the King's command, either to save himself from a more shameful death than beheading, or else, as is quite probable, to avert the ruin of his son Gregory, who he perhaps feared would fall with him. On this point, however, he need not have had any apprehension ; Gregory Cromwell, perhaps on account of his fortunate marriage with the aunt of Prince Edward, appeared to be in as high favour as ever 4, and the title of Baron Cromwell, which his father forfeited at his attainder, was regranted to the young man by patent, Dec. 18, 1540 5.

1 Cal. xvi. 40. 5 Cal. xvi. 379 (34).

2 Cf. Appendix at the end of this chapter.

3 Cf. Collier, vol. ii. p. 181. 'I readily grant Cromwell was no Papist at his Death. But then, it is pretty plain he was no Protestant neither.'

4 Cal. xv. 940.

5 Gregory Cromwell died in 1557, and was succeeded by his eldest son Henry. The latter's grandson Thomas, fourth Baron Cromwell, was created Earl Ardglass in the Irish peerage, April 15, 1645. The earldom of Ardglass expired in 1687, and the barony of Cromwell became dormant in 1709. Life of Thomas Cromwell, in the Dictionary of National Biography, vol. xiii. p. 202.

[302] Besides this speech, which has given historians so much trouble, Hall makes mention of the fact that Cromwell ' made his praier, which was long, but not so long as both Godly and learned 1. This prayer is given in full in Foxe, and, as it reads there, it certainly justifies the use of the epithets that Hall applied to it 2 . Whether Foxe's words were Cromwell's words, or whether Cromwell's words were his own, and not those of the King which were given him to speak, is however entirely another matter. It is unfortunate that we have no more credible authority than the martyrologist on this point. Cromwell's prayer, as he gives it, was certainly that of a man who humbly acknowledged his faults, and threw himself solely on the mercy of God ; but the words which he spoke are suspiciously devout, for those of a man to whom religion mattered so little.

'And thus,' says Foxe, 'his Prayer made, after he had godly and lovingly exhorted them that were about him on the Scaffold, he quietly committed his Soul into the hands of God, and so patiently suffered the stroke of the Ax, by a ragged and butcherly Miser, which very ungodly performed his Office 3.

1 Hall, p. 839.

2 Cf. Appendix at the end of this chapter.

3 Foxe, vol. ii. p. 434. Cf. Mendes Silva, pp. 34, 35: 'Acabadas de pronunciar estas palabras, se dispuso a morir, pidiendo al verdugo, llamado Gurrea, para no sentir dilatada pena, le cortasse la cabega de vn golpe. Tendiose, pues sobre el madero, y recibiole terrible, muriendo aquel que nunca. deuiera nacer, por quien Inglaterra desde entonces se abrasa en infernal incendio de heregias.'

APPENDIX TO CHAPTER XIV - PASSAGES FROM FOXE'S ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY - Vol. ii. p. 433.

'A true Christian confession of the L. Cromwel at his death.'

' I am come hither to die, and not to purge my self, as some think peradventure that I will. For if I should so do, I were a very wretch and a Miser. I am by the Law condemned to die, and thank my Lord God, that hath appointed me this death for mine Offence. For sithence the time that I have had years of discretion, I have lived a sinner, and offended my Lord God, for the which I ask him heartily forgiveness. And it is not unknown to many of you, that I have been a great Traveller in this World, and being but of a base degree, was called to high estate, and sithence the time I came thereunto I have offended my Prince, for the which I ask him heartily forgiveness, and beseech you all to pray to God with me, that he will forgive me. And now I pray you that be here, to bear me record, I die in the Catholick Faith, not doubting in any Article of my Faith, no nor doubting in any Sacrament of the Church. Many have slandered me and reported that I have been a bearer of such as have maintained evil Opinions, which is untrue. But I confess, that like as God by his holy Spirit doth instruct us in the Truth, so the Devil is ready to seduce us, and I have been seduced ; but bear me witness that I die in the Catholick Faith of the holy Church ; and I heartily desire you to pray for the Kings Grace, that he may long live with you in health and prosperity ; and that after him his Son Prince Edward that goodly Impe may long Reign over you. And once again I desire you to pray for me, that so long as life remaineth in this flesh, I waver nothing in my Faith.'

------------------------ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.118.143 (talk) 09:17, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that the reference to Cromwell's faith in the information column on the right hand side should be deleted for the simple reason that his religious beliefs cannot be summed up in a single word. I propose instead a new section explaining that, though Cromwell was a major proponent of the Anglican Reformation, he apparently regretted his actions at some point prior to his death and returned to Catholicism. The evidence for that is clear-cut.Wfgiuliano (talk) 09:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Where was Cromwell Executed?

The book "The Tower of London" by Christopher (Newsweek Books 1981) states that Cromwell was executed at Tyburn. This Wikipedia article states he was executed at the Tower. An internet search produces references that he was executed variously at Tyburn, inside the Tower, and on Tower Hill. Can others produce good citations either way?

Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Lacking better references, I have changed the place of Cromwell's execution to Tyburn according to the above reference. If anyone has a better reference that contradicts this, please cite them.

Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

There is a plaque on Tower Hill commemorating that Cromwell had been executed there. I therefore take this as the superior citation and have changed the article as such.

Bryan MacKinnon (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

But?

So, just what's wrong with where Holbein's portraits hang? The following quote pertains: "...hang facing each other on the same wall..".

That must be some non standard kind of wall, yeah? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.113 (talk) 03:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I think you may be mistaking the meaning? Portraits are not always depicting the subject of the painting facing straight forward. Perhaps Cromwell's portrait was on the left facing his left/viewer's right and More's portrait was on the right facing Cromwell's? TimBRoy (talk) 21:21, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Elizabeth Wyckes Merger

I agree. Merge them. Verica Atrebatum (talk) 12:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. The idea should be to expand Wikipedia's knowledge base, not unnecessarily contract it. The shortish nature of the article presents an open challenge to expand and seek out more knowledge on the topic. 78.105.199.11 (talk) 08:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Merge them. Elizabeth Wyckes is not notable enough to merit a page on her own. Agricolae (talk) 05:46, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, Elizabeth Wyckes may not have been notable, but she was a part of English history and as her own person she deserves her own page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahlou911 (talk • contribs) 20:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Everyone who has ever lived in England was a part of English history, but Wikipedia requires that one be notable to merit a page. Agricolae (talk) 03:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I also disagree with a marge. She is notable enough for own article due to historic relevance. --24.154.173.243 (talk) 20:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The reason for Thomas Cromwell's downfall and execution.

The article states that Cromwell's downfall and execution was prompted by Cromwell coercing the King into a marriage with Anne of Cleves, perceived by the King as a disastrous union. The relevant passus in the article says: "His final downfall, however, was caused by the haste with which he encouraged the king to marry Anne of Cleves, a princess from the United Duchies of Jülich-Cleves-Berg. This was a marriage that Cromwell hoped would put the English Reformation back on track after the recent setback with the Six Articles. The union became a disaster when King Henry confided to Cromwell that he had not consummated the marriage.[20] Henry told Cromwell to get him out of the marriage by legal means, but the king was obliged to go ahead with it or risk the vital German alliance. The disaster of the king's marriage to Anne of Cleves was all the opportunity that Cromwell's opponents, most notably the Duke of Norfolk, needed to press for his fall from grace."

However, historian G.J. Meyer says the following about this topic: "Contrary to what has often been asserted, he did not die because he had used a deceptive painting by Hans Holbein to trick the king into marrying a miserably homely Anne of Cleves. He died, rather, because he had become too closely identified with the evangelical party in England and the Protestant cause in Europe, and because the collapse of the latest alliance between Francis of France and the emperor Charles gave Henry a choice of Catholic allies and made Cromwell not only expendable but a diplomatic liability." (Meyer, G.J., "The Tudors: The complete story of England's most notorious dynasty", Delacorte Press, Kindle Edition, 2010, location 5.390)

In my personal opinion, I consider Meyer's version of history the more likely one. Even though the King may well have been cross with Cromwell for coaxing him into marrying a woman he turned out not to find attractive, I find it unlikely that for such a flimsy reason King Henry would dispose of (and not only dispose of him as an officer, but attaint him, condemn him to death and kill him) his most efficient and trusted lieutenant. I find it much more believable that political considerations such as the ones described by Meyer (the prospect of a possible alliance with Charles V against France or with France against Charles V), would be required to prompt the downfall of the second most powerful man of the Kingdom, who had invariably proven to be extremely efficient in the furtherance of Henry's goals.

In any event, there is a logical flaw in the version which is currently featured in the article. If Henry told Cromwell to get him out of the marriage by legal means (which he probably did), that cannot logically be followed by the king being obliged to go ahead with it (it being the marriage). He can only need to ask Cromwell to get him out of a marriage by legal means, after having entered into the marriage in the first place. But if he had already entered into it, then it makes no sense to say that he was still obliged to go ahead with it, as if it hadn't happened yet.

And also, by stating that the king was sadly obliged to go ahead with the marriage, despite having asked Cromwell to get him out of it by legal means, the article suggests that such efforts would have failed. I'm not sure whether or not this was Cromwell's doing, but the King did get out of the marriage. It was annuled for non-consummation.

In conclusion, I guess I'm saying that in my opinion the article's account of the reason for Cromwell's downfall and execution should either be changed into Meyer's version, or at least make mention of it as an alternate version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vpa248 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Convincing argument for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and agrees with the "exceptions" guidelines found at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#British nobility. -- Hadal (talk) 07:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl of Essex → Thomas Cromwell – He is clearly the primary meaning, Thomas Cromwell already redirects here. Histories of the period usually just refer to him as "Thomas Cromwell" or "Cromwell", I am not aware that he is ever referred to as "the Earl of Essex" or "Essex", and even many educated people with some knowledge of the history of the period may be unaware that he held this title. We should therefore go for his common name and remove an unnecessary disambiguator. PatGallacher (talk) 11:48, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support WP:PRECISION; if this is the primary topic of "Thomas Cromwell", and he is commonly known that way, then the current title is too long. 65.94.44.141 (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Even on the dab page he's just linked as the forename and surname. Softlavender (talk) 06:41, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - as this is an article on a peer, the relevant guideline is WP:NCROY, which mandates the current title unless the exceptions apply - it's not a matter of disambiguation or what is the primary topic (as a comparison, John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough, would clearly be the primary topic for John Churchill (which indeed redirects there), but that's not a reason to move the article there). Having said that, I think it's pretty clear that the current title is inappropriate, as he's hardly ever referred to as the Earl of Essex, having received that title shortly before his downfall and only months before his death. However, the same argument does not apply to the other option, Thomas Cromwell, 1st Baron Cromwell - he is referred to as "Lord Cromwell", not as often as "Thomas Cromwell" but still relatively frequently, and indeed is called that in the title of Thomas Lord Cromwell. "Lord Cromwell" was of course a title he bore for four years at the height of his power. I'm not convinced that the personal name alone is so overwhelming as to use it as the article title. I'm therefore opposing this move request, but would support a request to move it to Thomas Cromwell, 1st Baron Cromwell. Proteus (Talk) 11:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
  • That is a paricularly awkward halfway house, being neither his common name nor the title which follows from the strict application of WP:NCROY. "Lord Cromwell" might crop up occasonally, but not the full title given here. The duke is usually known as Marlborough, not Churchill, so that's not a good comparison. PatGallacher (talk) 10:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support Putting "Earl of Essex" in big letters at the top of the article makes the title look way more significant than it really was. Cromwell had many titles. This one didn't get much use. Kauffner (talk) 16:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support. Looking at WP:NCPEER (a section of WP:NCROY), there is an exception for "peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names". Having looked through the references in the article and having a gbooks search, I feel that this is certainly the case for Thomas Cromwell. Jenks24 (talk) 16:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support: Thomas Cromwell already redirects, so as long as it is a more common name than the full one currently used (which it seems to be), I don't see an argument against. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:14, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anglican?

I have a question about listing Cromwell as an Anglican, since I believe his protestant beliefs came before the formation of the CoE. It is very clear that Cromwell was a reformist and a Protestant, but can it be said he was an Anglican? I mean the early years of the Anglican Church was up and down, and since Cromwell was one of the ones to work towards the overthrow of Catholicism in England, his religious beliefs would predate the formation of the CoE. Wouldn't it make more sense then to just list him as a Protestant? Just a thought — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.110.230.177 (talk) 08:05, 24 November 2011 (UTC)