Talk:Historic counties of England

"Ancient" counties of England!?

We have ancient history, ancient Rome, ancient Greece, and ancient Egypt, but I find it too much to call the pre-1974 counties of England as ancient. In living memory there are many people who remember those pre-1974 counties, so to call them ancient is laughable. Through a Bold unilateral decision last year the article title was changed from Historic counties of England to Ancient counties of England without any clear consensus. The article should revert back until a clear consensus is made. Scrivener-uki (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The decision was made last July as a result of the discussion at the top of this page, which showed 4 editors in favour of the move from "Historic" to "Ancient" and none opposed. "Ancient counties" is a technical term, not a comparison with more ancient civilisations. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I still find it laughable to call the pre-1974 counties as ancient. Are we to assume the Historic counties of Wales, Historic counties of Ontario, Historic counties of Colorado, etc. should be renamed as Ancient counties? Scrivener-uki (talk) 14:19, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Well really its the pre-1889 counties that are/were the ancient ones. Laughable or not "ancient county" is the term used by for instance the Ordnance Survey and publications by the Royal Historical Society: in other words reliable sources. I think the point is that their origins are "in antiquity" (not sure if that is the same as time immemorial), and for the most part cannot be dated. It's also a widely used term eg by the Essex Record Office [1], Surrey History Centre [2] or Bristol Archives [3]. "Historic counties" is much more makey-uppy. And yes, the Welsh counties should bbe retitled as "ancient". Lozleader (talk) 15:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

It not so much what is the most popular term to be used on Wikipedia but how many Wikipedians vote for which one is to be used. Going by Google seaches the most popular term is "Traditional counties of England" with about 3,500,000 results, followed by "Historic counties of England" with about 1,290,000 results, and "Ancient counties of England" with about 561,000 results. And so what do Wikipedians vote for? They vote for the least popular term. No doubt if enough Wikipedians voted that the Earth is flat, then the Earth article would state it is flat. Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. The term "Traditional" is too controversial with some Wikipedians who see it as a Weasel word. The term "Ancient" gives the impression of something from way, way back in time. The fact is many of those so-called "Ancient" counties, with boundary changes, still exist. The term "Historic" seems the best word to convey about the English counties. We read about history and historical events, and so I don't see anything wrong with "Historic counties of England" as the article title. Scrivener-uki (talk) 14:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The above comment does not address the points raised by Lozleader, ie: that the term "ancient county" is used by the Ordnance Survey and institutions such as the Bristol Archives. Nev1 (talk) 14:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, the GM gang who back each other up, whether right or wrong. The fact is that the more popular, common terms are "Traditional" and "Historic" counties, but doesn't mean a thing to Wikipedia because there aren't enough users to vote for commonsense. Scrivener-uki (talk) 15:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, if it was up to me the article wouldn't use "ancient" in its title as I feel the term is too strongly linked with ancient Rome and ancient Greece and may convey an odd image to the reader, but my opinion is immaterial in the face of sources which show that "ancient counties" is used officially. In short, if you fail to address why some institutions use this phrase. Questioning the motives of others when your argument is failing is weak, both in integrity and effect. Nev1 (talk) 15:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The Department for Communities and Local Government use the term "historic counties of England".[4][5] I doubt you can get more official than a Government department. Scrivener-uki (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Finally you front up an produce some sources. It's much more effective than alluding to conspiracies and bleating about flatearthers. Nev1 (talk) 16:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps then this article should be moved back to "Historic counties of England" since the official, current Government department uses that term. Scrivener-uki (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Although I hate the idea of regarding Eric Pickles as "reliable" (or indeed my being mistaken for a member of the "GM gang"), I'd have no concerns about changing the title. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

After nearly two months and no objections I've moved the page back to Historic counties of England. Scrivener-uki (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Historic counties of England

"Historic counties of England" is the wrong title for this it applies that there are counties which are in some way separate from the modern counties. In most cases this is simply not true. The current Lancashire is the Lancashire that has always existed the boundaries of these areas have changed over time but they are all the same county.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You obviously haven't looked at any of the material on this subject, here or elsewhere. For example, when you typed the word county did you mean geographical county, undetached county, Poor Law county, registration county, sanitary county, borough county, corporate county, ceremonial county, postal county, sporting county or administrative county?

The administrative counties have (generally) had two existences, from 1889 to 1974 and separately from 1974 to the present day, being abolished on 31 March 1974 and new ones with the same names created the next day.

Following a consensus (of 11 people) long before either you or I arrived here, it was decided that Wikipedia would only refer to current local government areas in articles concerning the geography of the UK. More recent discussions have revealed that that decision is now set in stone. In order to show that other sub-divisions of the nation existed, it was decided that pages relating to those older descriptions of location should be created. The title of those was variously suggested as traditional counties, geographical counties, ancient counties or historic counties. As you can see, historic counties was the term chosen (again by a consensus of a tiny number of individuals) to refer to this topic.

DavidFRAS from work.217.34.41.57 (talk) 11:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

No not before I was here.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The Historic counties of England article is about the historic origins of the counties, hence its page title. There are various Counties of England depending which users are interested in. The Administrative counties of England were replaced by the Metropolitan and non-metropolitan counties of England. There also Ceremonial counties of England and Postal counties of the United Kingdom. Scrivener-uki (talk) 13:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That isn't what the title say's. "The origins of the counties of England" would say that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitchen Knife (talk • contribs) 14:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I've struck out the word 'historic' in my earlier post. Obviously I'll have be very careful with my wording in future or it'll be jumped upon. Besides, there are historic counties which don't exist anymore - Cumberland, Westmorland and Huntingdonshire. The remaining historic counties have had their boundaries redrawn. The Department for Communities and Local Government use the term historic counties of England "[6]". So that is why the term is used on Wikipedia for those counties. Scrivener-uki (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

This is one of the cases where Wikipedia is using a 'least worst' term that causes minimum confusion. If there was a better one I think we'd have come across it by now. S a g a C i t y (talk) 15:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Then should we change the name of this article to "The Origins of the counties of England" that way we can avoid any qualifier.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 19:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Oppose article name change. Scrivener-uki (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Why?--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Because your proposal only describes sections 1 and 2; sections 3 and 4 are on modifications the the counties as originally formed and section 5 is a list. If you would care to read the archives from the links you will see that this has be the subject of debate since 2003. Any proposal to change the name again must be in that context. S a g a C i t y (talk) 20:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment on ancient/historic

Ancient/historic are both found in the literature, with more scholarly/reliable sources using ancient. It is the 'historic origin' and 'establishment in antiquity' that these words refer to. Either will probably do the job. MRSC (talk) 09:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If the term "ancient" is used in scholarly sources, I suggest that be explained, rather than being added into the text without explanation. Divisions dating back a thousand years or so are obviously not "ancient" in archaeological or geological terms, for example. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should rename the article to Ancient counties of England, given that term is more often used. MRSC (talk) 09:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We are edit conflicting. Please discuss it here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've changed the text to make the point, but will revert. The terms "ancient" and "traditional" are referenced later in the para, and the term "ancient" therefore does not need to appear in the opening sentence. The point is that they are not unambiguously ancient, though they are sometimes called that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The changed text doesn't really reflect the literature. The terms are used interchangeably. MRSC (talk) 09:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Quite - so move the last sentence of the para up to follow the opening sentence. The referencing should go in the article text not the lede, so some text may need to be added. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking over the history of page moves the evidence supplied for Ancient counties of England seems to be stronger, and the move to Historic counties of England probably should not have taken place. MRSC (talk) 09:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to make another formal proposal, though as you say this has been discussed on previous occasions. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion on this page would suggest to me a consensus exits for ancient, aside from one vocal dissenter who moved the page. MRSC (talk) 10:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no clear consensus. There was no objection to the last move, which was well advertised in advance - presumably because no-one thought it was very important either way. What is important is that the text is clear, and that redirects are in place. If you want to start a new discussion, please go through the proper processes here, by advertising your suggestion using a {{movenotice}} template. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Do they exist?

We have an editor, User:Kitchen Knife, who is claiming (without any evidence so far) that the opening sentence of the article should use the past tense - "were" rather than "are". I think the case is made in the article that they continue to exist for some purposes, but views of interested editors are sought. Incidentally, the wording used when the article was a Featured Article is here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Counties where and are given there existence by either acts of monarchs or parliament, they can equally be abolished by them. A statement like "ancient China stretches further south then today" would be nonsensical, To say "Ancient China stretched..." with the past tense is correct. It is the same with the counties. That some people think China should expand to cover it's whole imperial domain is irrelevant, it doesn't me the ancient China exists in anyway.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As administrative areas for local government, that is true. But the whole point, to which you seem to be oblivious, is that they are not just administrative areas. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes they are that is what they where created for. The may have been other things before they where counties but that is what they became. They are simple constructs of government and have been changed by them at there will. If I was to refer to Liverpool Sailors Home as being existent because a lot of people regret it's passing it would be foolish, but that is what you are doing.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted the wording to the present tense, as has been maintained in this article since 2003, including the time when it was a featured article. User:Kitchen Knife is currently blocked. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)