Talk:Tragedy of the commons

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• Two Lectures on the Checks to Population

Introduction Paragraph

I don't like the introduction paragraph for this article, its a bit long and the last 2 or 3 paragraphs, the ones discussing a debate about sustainability, should really be put somewhere in the body of the article. 123.243.215.92 (talk) 09:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty with the introductory paragraph is that it does more than mention Hardin's paper (the details of which deserve separate treatment) without including as it should, the present-day expression of this tragedy namely the loss of fishing opportunities world-wide, due to over-fishing (and for that matter whale over-killing too). Macrocompassion (talk) 11:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, it's not certain that the dilemma of the commons was first discussed by Hardin in 1968; rather, Harold Demsetz had a 1967 article, Toward a Theory of Property Rights, 57 The American Economic Review 347 (May, 1967). Although Hardin's article may be more widely cited, it appears that Demsetz' was first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.198.12 (talk) 23:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The Malthusian Theory about over-consumption compared to population growth could usefully be included here too, since it was how people looked at this problem in the early days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macrocompassion (talk • contribs) 11:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Real, existing commons

Do you think there should be some mention of the fact that there had been commons in england for the best part of a thousand years, without any of Hardin's predictions occurring? I think it'd put the article in perspective to note that the theory is proving an outcome sharply in contrast to the last thousand years of real-life evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.113.164 (talk) 14:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Another possible example is flat-rate Internet, which encourages over-consumption and capping of bandwidth. With pricing based on used bandwidth, ISPs would instead have an incentive to increase capacity and encourage more use. -- SpareSimian (talk) 05:50, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

nope, your abundantly wrong. Also, not a common at all: they sold it to you. Go somewhere else.Scientus (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Paradoxically?

"Paradoxically, Hardin's article has been interpreted as an argument both for the privatization of community assets and for increased government regulation."

Paradoxically? Really? "Interestingly," perhaps--but I don't think it's paradoxical.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

philiptdotcom (talk) 02:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

P.S. - It's not paradoxical, because both the solutions mentioned [potentially] solve the "commons dilemma" [at least to some extent]; however, the BENEFICIARIES of the reduced impacts may be significantly different. philiptdotcom (talk) 02:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy with rewording the sentence, either with the word 'interestingly' or through some other reconstruction. The use of paradoxically in this context was a poor choice of words on my part. Debate 木 08:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been bold and replaced the word with 'controversially'. I am still happy for others to have a crack if that change is itself controversial. Debate 木 08:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi there Debate. I've removed "controversially" since it's not controversial that Hardin's idea has been used in this way (certainly not to Hardin, who would probably have taken the view that no one solution fits all commons problems). "Interestingly" would have been better, but it still implies a judgement on the part of WP editors rather than something source-able. The sentence makes sense without any leading word, so I've removed any for now. I hope that's OK. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 08:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That's fine with me. Debate 木 08:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote it as: Hardin's article has been variously interpreted either as an argument for the privatization of community assets or for increased government regulation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Can we get sources for these interpretations? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Go for it. Debate 木 00:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I interpret that as "boldly delete the unsourced material". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

How about boldy contribute some sources rather than simply hitting the delete key to every unsourced statement, of which there are still too many in this article, simply to make a point. References aren't that hard to find and several editors above don't appear to find the overall sentence objectionable. To save you some time, try clicking on the article above under "This page has been cited as a source by a media organization". Regardless, the article touches on the topic in several places and as the into is essentially a summary sourcing is only necessary if you think it is.Debate 木 00:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The burden is on those who add material. But really I was just asking, on this talk page, which sources we're summarizing by drawing attention to this "paradox". Who are the people who make these contradictory assertions? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This is beginning to turn into a discussion on sourcing, and probably needs it's own section. Regardless, there remains a fair amount of cleanup to do following a merge. The sources for The Commons Dilemma section are at the bottom of the page, separate from the reflist, and need to be integrated into the text and reflist (unfortunately they were never in-line citations). Due to a crazy life at the moment I haven't had the opportunity, but the work is waiting to be done if someone wants to jump in and do it. Debate 木 01:02, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, seriously, the link I point out above gives you a start in answering your last question.Debate 木 01:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Which link? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in: Steigerwald, Bill (April 17, 2005). "Four economic precepts for everyday life", Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. (details)" Debate 木 09:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that wasn't clear. But I hope we're not summarizing 13-year-old Tobin's views on this. "According to one newspaper columnist's 13-year old nephew, the 'Tragedy of the Commons' is a call for privatization...." Presumably, sentences like the one we're discussing here concern significant viewpoints that appear in reliable sources. Since we're arguing over how to summarize their views, I'm just asking who "they" are: these people whose views we're describing. If we're not sure whose ideas we're summarizing then maybe that would be the best place to start. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

<outdent> As I said, it's a start. Regardless, the term "they" is rightly not used in the sentence as it simply summaries two general schools of thought taken by a wide variety of commentators, as well as an implicit tension within Hardin's article itself, and is already extensively covered in the body of the text. The {{who}} tag, which appears to me to better characterize your concerns rather than {{fact}}, is therefore in my view unnecessarily pedantic. Nonetheless, if you wished to do some digging I am confident that you would find numerous sources that would resolve your concerns, including from within the extensive existing reference list. Unfortunately, as I don't have the time at the moment to follow that up for you please be bold and either do a little research yourself and contribute to improving the article or delete whatever chunks you see fit. Debate 木 12:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Late to this party but I had come across this before and posted it on some discussion thread related to Hardin but here it is. Hardin is alleged to have "lamented":

"The title of my 1968 paper should have been `The Tragedy of the Unmanaged Commons.'" [Emphasis Hardin's]

http://geolib.com/essays/sullivan.dan/royallib.html

If accurate, it suggests some displeasure with misinterpretation of his original essay.24.5.167.23 (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Mentioned commons dilema in intro

• I added info about the commons dilemma to the introduction. This is necessary because the dilemma is central to Hardin's article, and the article is not the first or last study of the essence of the dilemma. I believe many people are familiar with the phrase "tragedy of the commons" as representing the dilemma of the commons itself, rather than the article. -Pgan002 (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The essence of the commons dilemma has been discussed by theorists since ancient history, but not under that name.

What is our source for that sentence? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• References 6, 7, 8 and 9. -Pgan002 (talk) 18:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks. The assertion that Thucydides and Aristotle were talking about the same concept is close to original research, but it's probably OK. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Several Dead white males were used in the 18 and 19 to motivate to get rid of the commons,there is no continuity of the discussion since the attic Polis. Radkau is very clear abut that point. --Polentario (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

• Radkau is cited in the intro, with no explanation of whom he is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.171.4 (talk) 02:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Oak tree

its rather typical for a former commons used by pigs to be fed with oaks. --Polentario (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Third Opininion concerning Wikimedia Commons and Allmende

(Copy from wiki portal) Is there any sourced etymology about Wikimedia 'Commons', e.g. in relation with the historical Common land and Tragedy of the Commons or Tragedy of the anticommons ? The direct German Translation of commons is be 'Allmende'. Both have been used in GB and germany (according reliable sources e.g. Joachim Radkau) since the 18th in an metaphorical way for the challenges of Common good (economics)s respectively de:Gemeingut. Thanks for any advice. --Polentario (talk) 19:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Costa Rica is the first country to avoid the tragedy of the commons, by pricing for environmental business services to preserve eco-tourism

The country of Costa Rica has successfully advanced the growth of its eco-tourism business by taking account of, and pricing for, the environmental business services consumed by pollution.

Missing the Point

Critics of Harden’s paper “The Tragedy of the Commons” continue to miss his point. In seeking to criticise some of the examples he used, or seeking to demonstrate that his examples were inaccurate, those critics have deflected their attention completely from the central thesis in Harden’s paper. That thesis is that the Earth is a finite resource, and, a finite resource can only support a finite objective – in this case, population. Ergo, if we don’t control the world’s population we are all doomed to suffer. What Harden did not state was the time period before this would occur. The paper was written in 1968. A little over forty years later (2009), with increased numbers enduring poverty, global warming, and other associated social ills, it would seem that we (with one exception) are ignoring Harden’s timely warning at our peril. That one exception is China which moved to impose their one child policy on its population a number of years ago. 203.129.48.106 (talk) 04:06, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Criticisms, NPOV, More Citations Needed

The current citation in the controversy section (which I have more appropriately labeled "Criticism" in keeping with other articles) is insufficient. Specifically, the article references a public policy expert in a journal article.

This is not a historian commenting on historical fact. The issue here is whether or not land enclosures were managed to prevent overgrazing. The article claimed that "Historical Studies have proven" and then cited a journal article specifically attacking Hardin, not a journal article about common land. Dahlman, who was cited in the article, is a public policy expert, not a historian, and it is not sufficient to cite his work when challenging an idea accepted by consensus within the historical community.

This is a historical claim: It requires historical sources. A journal of 18th century british history for example.

Please see Wikipedia for more information. Specifically: "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community."

I have edited the article slightly to fix the immediate problem ("Historical studies have proven") but the whole section needs significant cleanup. For example, I left the rather POV statement about there being errors within the article. I don't know which errors he's talking about, however. It would be good to have that sources perspective, though, as he is an economic expert.

That's one of the problems with The Tragedy of the Commons. The work bridges Biology, Economics, History and Political and Moral Philosophy. Regarding criticisms, we need appropriate sources from appropriate arenas.--Ollie Garkey (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Add The Age of Stupid?

Add The Age of Stupid? 99.155.159.95 (talk) 08:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Dennis Fox quote

The whole paragraph regarding the Dennis Fox comments (added 05:06, 31 May 2007) is broken and is pretty weak anyway.

First, it is one large quote with a cursory introduction.

Second, much of the quote is actually a quote of a quote with Fox quoting Edney. And, the referencing of Edney is totally useless because it is simply a copy-paste of the references in Fox that are now incomplete.

Third, the quote-within-a-quote is incorrectly formatted and un-terminated making it unclear what is quoted text. Everything after "he stated" to the end of the paragraph is quoted from Fox.

Fourth, the online version of the Fox paper referenced contains a warning that it "does not exactly match the published version." If we want to quote this paper someone should dig out a reference for the American Psychologist version of the paper and check the quoted text.

Fifth, the quote-within-a-quote (of Edney by Fox) has now grown a "[sic]" after the "well-functioning commons" which is not present in the online version of Fox's paper. I don't see what requires the use of the heavy-handed 'sic' notation here; perhaps the singular 'commons' is causing confusion?

The idea presented by Fox in this paragraph is intriguing. Perhaps someone can summarize Fox and Edney. Or summarize Fox and quote Edney directly. Or summarize Fox and quote the "Dunbar's number" page.

67.230.131.134 (talk) 05:14, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Non-illustrative picture

The picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lacanja_burn.JPG) in this article is an example of [deforestation]; it is not an example of "Tragedy of the Commons". Thus, it should not appear as a leading graphic in the summary of the article.

There is no objection to the picture appearing somewhere else in the article, perhaps as an illustration of one of the concepts associated with the dilemma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MechHead (talk • contribs) 16:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The picture of the cows in field that is currently there is more appropriate. Although, hmm, it may be a little obscure to modern readers. Interpretation 1) One animal eats the grass, the others can't ... that's somewhat intuitive. Interpretation 2) Cows and other animals can overgraze land, leading to soil damage. Ok, true, but not in the experience of most readers. Interpretation 3) Communal lands, historically, were sometimes carefully regulated, so that no one person obliviously took what someone else also needed. Very obscure, for historians only.

However, all those interpretations are a little tangential. The problem was stated to us by our Systems Analysis professor perhaps in a way that is more readily grasped: There is a worn track in the lawn, outside the classroom. People walk on grass all the time. It recovers. The problem is that when more than a particular number of people walk over a spot of grass, it dies. The tragedy is that no one is really trying to kill the grass. And no one knows whether their feet will make no difference, or will be the last straw that kills the grass. Up until that point -- there's no problem. The first person past that point has done something, unintentionally, that has a serious consequence. 24.130.145.204 (talk) 03:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Identity politics?

Is there any reason why this article is in Category:Identity politics? I've read a bit about both but can't immediately see a connection. —Tom Morris (talk) 17:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Looks like a tenuous connection to me. I'll remove it (feel free to revert, anyone, if you know better :-) bobrayner (talk) 19:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Spam is not an example of the commons dillema

I would argue this is not an appropriate example. First of all, spam is sustainable. It is not and has never been expected that spam will entirely kill email. Secondly the normal use case is that of users using a common good in the same way but collectively overusing it for maximizing their own profit. This does not apply to spam. Spammers are a minority and their practice is a nuisance to other users, but does not threaten their own practice, nor is it confined to the short term... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.117.48.185 (talk) 22:56, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

commons vs. public good

These edits added Wikimedia commons and Creative Commons, which should be sensible, given their names, but they don't fit with the notion of commons as in the tragedy of the commons. A commons is generally considered a non-excludable, rival good, whereas things like Wikimedia aren't really rival, excluding slight bandwidth use issues. They really fit more into the notion of public goods. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Orwell's Writings on Commons

George Orwell had a thing or two to say about enclosure. In "As I Please," Tribune, 18 August, 1944 http://wintermute10.tripod.com/AIP-35.htm he writes

Apropos of my remarks on the railings round London squares, a correspondent writes: ‘Are the squares to which you refer public or private properties? If private, I suggest that your comments in plain language advocate nothing less than theft, and should be classed as such.’
If giving the land of England back to the people of England is theft, I am quite happy to call it theft. In his zeal to defend private property, my correspondent does not stop to consider how the so-called owners of the land got hold of it. They simply seized it by force, afterwards hiring lawyers to provide them with title-deeds. In the case of the enclosure of the common lands, which was going on from about 1600 to 1850, the landgrabbers did not even have the excuse of being foreign conquerors; they were quite frankly taking the heritage of their own countrymen, upon no sort of pretext except that they had the power to do so.
Except for the few surviving commons, the high roads, the lands of the National Trust, a certain number of parks, and the sea shore below high-tide mark, every square inch of England is ‘owned’ by a few thousand families. These people are just about as useful as so many tapeworms. It is desirable that people should own their own dwelling houses, and it is probably desirable that a farmer should own as much land as he can actually farm. But the ground-landlord in a town area has no function and no excuse for existence. He is merely a person who has found out a way of milking the public while giving nothing in return. He causes rents to be higher, he makes town planning more difficult, and he excludes children from green spaces: that is literally all that he does, except to draw his income. The removal of the railings in the squares was a first step against him. It was a very small step, and yet an appreciable one, as the present move to restore the railings shows. For three years or so the squares lay open, and their sacred turf was trodden by the feet of working-class children, a sight to make dividend-drawers gnash their false teeth. It that is theft, all I can say is, so much the better for theft.

For that matter, Enclosure might make a good addition to the article. Thoughts?

Staysharp (talk) 21:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Orwell's diatribe is aimed at class enemies that he demonises as false-toothed tapeworms who give nothing in return. However Orwell's moral outrage offers no better compensation than Captain Pouch's pouch (see article) for his simplistic equating of functioning capitalism with theft. The treading of common green spaces by "feet of working-class children" that he envisions hardly sets the scene for a Tragedy of overgrazing of the Commons. Orwell's text could only be related to Hardin's essay if the latter debated for or against Marxist revolution, but Hardin does neither. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:47, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Lede a little too strong on Hardin?

Not an expert on this subject, but just scanning the article, it seems that the lede saying that this was "first described" by Hardin seems wrong. He was the first to use the term but that's different. How about replacing

This dilemma was first described in an influential article titled "The Tragedy of the Commons," written by ecologist Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.

with something along the lines of

This dilemma has been recognized for many centuries, but the term "tragedy of the commons" was coined by ecologist Garrett Hardin as the title of an influential essay published in the journal Science in 1968.

I'm not a regular on this article so I'm not going to do this, but I'm suggesting it. Herostratus (talk) 04:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Similarity to Prisoner's dilemma

I notice there is a strong similarity between Tragedy of the commons and the Prisoner's dilemma. Especially, it is obvious when comparing the "real-life examples". Maybe one could say that the tragedy of the common is a result of people acting rationally upon the prisoner's dilemma?

At least, I think the "See also" section should include a reference to the Prisoner's dilemma. CLHA (talk) 18:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The Population Bomb

The Population Bomb was a book published the same year. Both the book and this article have the same concern, overpopulation. This article should mention the relationship between the book and Hardin's article. Which one of these was published first? They are both the same topic and very influential. Or was this general theme talked about that year?
It should also note the reasons why concerns about population control are reduced and that nowadays there is more in the media about preserving resources.
QuentinUK (talk) 17:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

What are you suggesting is the connection between the two? Hardin's theory is not about overpopulation but rather about how commons spaces are used. Sunray (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you read the essay? It's exactly about population. He just discusses land use as a metaphor or example of the problems he sees with unlimited reproduction. I can't answer QuentinUK's question (at least without doing research), but it's relevant.   Will Beback  talk  20:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Though he only mentions overpopulation twice, his thesis is that: "abandoning the commons in [i.e., limiting] breeding," is necessary as there is no technical solution to "the misery of overpopulation." Sunray (talk) 06:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a common mistake. Naturally, this article focuses on the general issue rather than Hardin's specific concern.   Will Beback  talk  07:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• [Journal of Comparative Family Studies]' first issues were published in 1970. This date, only two years after the publication of Paul Ehrlich's (1968) The Population Bomb and Garett Hardin's (1968) Tragedy of the Commons, marks the height of public and academic concerns about population growth and the threats it posed (e.g., Meadows et al. 1974).
  • A Half Century of Fertility Change. Morgan, S Philip; Rackin, Heather. Journal of Comparative Family Studies 41. 4 (Summer 2010): 515-.
• Two seminal papers for contemporary food ethics are nearing their fortieth anniversary. ‘‘Famine, Affluence and Morality,’’ was one of several early papers that established the reputation of a young Australian philosopher named Peter Singer (1972), while ‘‘Lifeboat Ethics: The Case Against Helping the Poor,’’ was contributed by the ecologist Garrett Hardin (1974), already famous for his paper ‘‘The Tragedy of the Commons.’’ Both papers were published during a time when crushing famines were making headlines, and against the background of a freshly minted environmental consciousness sparked by books such as Paul Ehrlich’s The Population Bomb and Barry Commoner’s The Closing Circle. Singer argued for a moral obligation to feed starving people, while Hardin argued against it.
  • Food Aid and the Famine Relief Argument (Brief Return) Thompson, Paul B. Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics23. 3 (2010): 209-227.
• In his book "The Population Bomb," Mr. Ehrlich criticized DDT for being too effective in reducing death rates and thus contributing to "overpopulation." Hardin opposed spraying pesticides in the Third World because "every life saved this year in a poor country diminishes the quality of life for subsequent generations." For these activists, malaria was nature's way of controlling population growth, and DDT got in the way.
  • DDT and Population Control. Editorial. Wall Street Journal [New York, N.Y] 24 Apr 2010: .12.
• The world’s population has increased dramatically since Thomas Malthus first proffered his rather gloomy prognostications on the matter. From an estimated one billion at the turn of the nineteenth century, human numbers grew to more than three billion by the 1960s, when Garrett Hardin and Paul Ehrlich rekindled Malthus’ fears with ominous predictions of food and land being despoiled by the teeming masses of people who held no regard for the rights or needs of others. Ehrlich wrote, for example, that ‘‘the battle to feed all of humanity is over…In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death’’ (Ehrlich 1968). Hardin maintained that the ‘‘goal of the greatest good for the greatest number’’ would be unobtainable in a world that grew beyond its optimum level of occupants (Hardin 1968). Arguing that families who do not face negative consequences for doing so will continue to produce children wantonly, Hardin appealed for the end of welfare supports that encourage ‘‘overbreeding,’’ just as Malthus called for the end of the British poor laws in 1798. Because individuals simply could not act in the best interests of society, it was incumbent upon the government to intervene to appropriately manage the commons. Malthus, Ehrlich and Hardin prioritized the values of survival, welfare and justice for the current and future global community over the value of individual freedom. In their very reductionistic consequentialist prescription, because the ends justify the means, the means; namely, restrictions on reproductive freedom, were therefore not only acceptable, they were ethically sound.
  • Policy review: thoughts on addressing population and climate change in a just and ethical manner. Petroni, Suzanne. Population and Environment30. 6 (Jul 2009): 275-289.

And so on. The two publications are often compared and contrasted. But it'd be harder to answer QuentinUK's questions about how they came to be written in the same year, and which came first. Further research might turn up something.   Will Beback  talk  20:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

OR tag

Placed this tag after the last sentence of the intro to show that the sentence is out of place without a citation -- it makes a claim that merits citation. This likely could be fixed by moving the previous citation ahead to the end of the section, but since I'm not familiar with the sources, I used OR, and now here we are. Zach99998 (talk) 03:38, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Relevant? Raj Patel's "The Value of Nothing"

• Raj Patel's "The Value of Nothing"?

The name of the book comes from a quotation from Oscar Wilde, "nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing". The book is about the food politics: how market forces cause poverty and starvation. 99.181.142.231 (talk) 05:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not for us to decide if it's relevant. Either the work itself needs to discuss this topic, or some 3rd party needs to make the connection.   Will Beback  talk  19:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No mentions of externalities

I think it is at least worth mentioning externalities in this context. Even if the argument is pushed that the tragedy of the commons is not a form of an externality (which I think is rather silly, but I'm willing to hear it) it still doesn't explain the lack of any reference to this deeply related concept. Walras101 (talk) 23:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Some extra explanation sounds like a good idea. They're clearly related concepts. bobrayner (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)