Talk:Turkish Van

Van Region: Eastern Anatolia, Western Armenia, Northern Kurdistan - are they compatible or not?

Resolved: No one has refuted this well-done research, nor its pointing out of POV pushing, in over a year and half, as of Dec. 2011.

Basically, we seem to be having problems here. Here is the dilemma

Turkish, pro-Turkish, pro-let's-make-stateless-people-shut-up, anti-Armenian/Kurd, and anti-politics people seem to want to insist that references to the Van lake region being historically part of Western Armenia, and part of Northern ethnic Kurdistan, be deleted.

Conversely, Armenian, Kurdish, pro-Armenian/Kurdish, pro-let's-make-reference-to-history, pro-let's-make-reference-to-the-fact-that-political-borders-are-not-cultural-borders, and other people, want the references there.

Let me state the facts, and some opinions:

1) The Van lake region as part of historic Western Armenia: specifically the area north of hte lake but also the region in general to a lesser extent, as a strong Armenian heritage. It was usually part of Armenian states when the existed, and it wasn't even on the periphery. Armenian place names, before Turkey changed many in the 1900s, were overwhelmingly dominant North of the lake, and very common around it.

2) Historical and modern Kurdish presence: For at least a millenia, Van, specific the area South of the lake, as well as East and West (but not as much so) were ethnically Kurdish in addition to being Armenian. The Ottomon census reveals this mixing around the lake, with the lake itself being the major north-south boundary between the two peoples' domains.

3) The exact demographics of Van in the late Ottomon Era: copied from the city's page:

The demographics of Ottoman Van are a debated and contentious point as they relate directly to claims of ownership by either side prior to the outbreak of World War I. Based on the official 1914 Ottoman Census the population of Van province consisted of 179,422 Muslims and 67,797 Armenians. The Ottoman Census figures include only male citizens, excluding women and children. According to a more recent research, the corrected estimates for Van province (including women and children) was; 313,000 Muslims, 130,000 Armenians, and 65,000 others, including Syriac Christians and Nestorians. The demographics of Van are a greatly debated point given the changing of provincial borders. For example, in 1875 the province was divided and Van and Hakkari separated, only to be rejoined in 1888 which drastically changed the make up of any census, and some writers argue that this merging was done to keep the Armenians from forming a majority. In 1862 it was estimated that in Van there were 90,100 Christians (including Nestorians) and 95,100 Muslims. The French Consul in Van reported that in Van and Bitlis 51.46% were Kurds, 32.70 were Armenians and 5.53% were Turks. On the other hand, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinope estimated 185 000 Armenians in Van, 18000 Assyrian Jacobites, 72 000 Kurds, 47 000 Turks, 25 000 Yezidis and 3 000 Gypsis. Both sides have been accused of overcounting the numbers at the time given the revival of the Armenian Question and population statistics became important during the Berlin Conference.

4) Conclusion from the Demographics: Both sides seem to disagree onwhether Kurds or Armenians were the majority. Personally, I'm taking the 51.46% Kurdish, 32.7% Armenian figure for the Van and Bitlis provinces as by far the most authoritative one, as it was done by neither Armenian religious/nationalist organizations or imperial censuses, but rather, French investigators, a third party, and one that is known to be much more thorough with their work than the notably inefficient and corrupt Ottomon authorities. But this is beside the point: the region has a dual Armenian and Kurdish heritage. Armenians were more urban, and Kurds more rural, yes. But in general, this is the line.

5) Nativeness of Armenians to the Van Region- Why the Urartians are not an argument for removing reference to the Armenians (and by extension, Kurds): Van is Armenian for village or settlement. It is my belief, as is the belief of many scholars, that this is not one of the majority of Indo-European words in Armenian, but rather, from the substratum in the language- Urartian/Nakh. The root is the same root that produced the Chechen cognate I know- bun- which means shelter, lair or home (I should note here- bun actually refers, usually, to a single building, mainly a cabin or similar thing, or at least that's how I've heard it used). This root (probably *vun in Urartian pronounciation, as in Chechen v may have been lost for awhile) may also be present in many other places in Armenia- for example, Yerevan, which was once called Eribuni/Erivuni, or, notoriously, Nakhechivan/Naxcivan. There are many Anatolian Turks who would say that this is further proof of why we should not include it, that the previous Urartian (Nakh) people would have to then be mentioned and we'd end up mentioning every ethnic group within a 1000 mile vicinity. However, I disagree. To keep things short, it is necessary to note that while the Armenians are a primarily Indo-European people, they are also the partial descendents of the Urartians. This is suggested by the large amount of Urartian influence in the Armenian language- which is perhaps greater even then the Gaulish substratum in French and comparable to the Dacian substratum in Romanian (both groups are thought to be descended from their non-Latin predecessors). It is also suggested by Armenian genetics: let us look at their genetics after removing all the R-type Y-haplogroups from the pool. The resulting ratios in the pool start to closely resemble those of peoples in Eastern Georgia as well as among Chechens and Ingush - they have large concentrations of Y-haplogroup J2,Y-haplogroup F and Y-haplogroup G, with a smaller concentration of Y-haplogroup I and Y-haplogroup K (although, admittedly, the Chechen and Ingush samples in that one study were a little small, but they still give the general impression). People in Eastern Georgia, specifically Kakhetia and the Tush and Khevsur regions, the Bats, and the Ingush and Chechens in the North Caucasus are specifically the groups that have Nakh (by implacation, closely related to Urartians and Hurrians) roots (for example, see Amjad Jaimoukha's book on Chechens, specifically the chapter with regard to Urartu, for further info).

Hence, I conclude that the area is simultaneously Western Armenia, Northern Kurdistan and Eastern Turkey for the following regions.

WESTERN HISTORIC ARMENIA: As defined by HISTORIC Armenian lands (i.e. before the late 19th century).

NORTHERN ETHNIC KURDISTAN: Defined historically, ethnically and demographically.

EASTERN POLITICAL TURKEY: By the UN-recognized political boundary.

As for Anatolia, that geographic term is vague, I suggest we dodge it when discussing Van. But really, I don't see why there should be any conflict between using the three above terms simultaneously, as they are not incompatible.--Yalens (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Non-native-English-speaker

Hi, everybody. Thank you all for your help in the editing of the parts of the article that I have placed. Anyhow, I "am bold-enough" not to be upset with the following comment: "Van pattern in the Turkish Van cat: Rephrased one paragraph that must have been written by a non-native-English-speaker". Yes, I am not a native English speaker. But, in case I did not write, what I did in the years, would any other person do it, including breeders and other experts in the breed? So, thanks again for your help. Best wishes, -- Zara-arush (talk) 16:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Letter of Pierre Victor Lottin de Laval

Letter of Pierre Victor Lottin de Laval that was discussed last year here as a product of imagination may be seen, read and translated here in Galica, published at: The text is as fallws:

CHAT D'ANGORA. 181

II. TRAVAUX ADRESSÉS

ET COMMUNICATIONS FAITES A LA SOCIÉTÉ.

SUR LE CHAT D'ANGORA.

LETTRE ADRESSÉE

A M. LE PRÉSIDENT DE LA SOCIÉTÉ IMPÉRIALE D'ACCLIMATATION

Par M. LOTTIN DE LA VAL.

(Séance du H avril 1856.)

Monsieur le Président,

Ces jours derniers, quand j'eus l'honneur de vous recevoir chez moi, vous me fîtes part de l'opinion récemment accréditée que les Chats dits A'Angora n'existaient ou ne pouvaient vivre

que dans le voisinage de l'antique Ancyre. C'est une erreur, et je m'empresse de vous envoyer cette note pour détromper le monde savant.

J'ai trouvé cette belle espèce féline sur le grand plateau arménien à Erzerouin, où le climat diffère singulièrement de celui d'Angora. Elle est très nombreuse à Mourch (Kurdistan) ; cette espèce est la race dominante, .l'en ai trouvé aussi àBillis et dans le pachalick de Bayazid ; mais les plus beaux que j'ai vus appartenaient à l'archevêque de Van, ville située dans l'est du Kurdistan, sur les frontières de l'Aderbaïdjan. Il en possédait trois : un de couleur gris de perle, un orangé, moucheté de blanc et de noir, et le troisième complètement blanc, leur fourrure était magnifique, et l'on ne trouvait à cela rien d'extraordinaire, tant ces animaux sont communs dans leKurdistan. J'en ai vu aussi à Alpéit, chez Khan Mahmoud, prince de Hékiars. Je n'ai pas souvenance d'en avoir vu en Perse; si j'avais pensé que cela pût intéresser la science, je m'en serais préoccupé malgré mes travaux si multiples. Mais ce qui vous surprendra davantage, c'est que malgré l'élévation de la température, on trouve à Bagdad des Chats d'Angora; seulement ils sont moins beaux que ceux qui vivent sur le versant nord des

182 SOCIÉTÉ IMPÉRIALE ZOOLOGIQUE D'ACCLIMATATION.

montagnes Médiques et du Taurus : doit-on attribuer cela à l'atmosphère embrasée ou àl'hostilité desBagdadins? Je l'ignore et vous résoudrez la question bien plus sûrement que moi ; ce que je puis vous dire, c'est que les habitants de Bagdad font une rude guerre aux chats, prétendant, avec assez de raison, je crois, qu'ils apportent la peste à cause de leurs fourrures et de leurs habitudes. Quand le terrible fléau sévit dans la ville des

Kalifes, toute communication est interdite; chacun s'interne, et principalement les chrétiens, qui repoussent le fatalisme musulman.

C'est par les terrasses, m'ont dit plusieurs Chaldéens, que la peste nous arrive. Aussi chacune de ces terrasses, même quand la peste n'a pas sévi depuis plusieurs années, est-elle en tout temps défendue par une épaisse et haute muraille faite de Sabber et autres arbustes épineux du désert ; ces haies formidables sont entretenues avec plus de soin que les maisons

mômes. C'est en demandant la cause de ces épais fourrés qui me semblaient si sales et si disgracieux sous le beau ciel de l'Irack, dans cette, ville de jardins , belle encore malgré sa déchéance, que j'ai dû de pouvoir répondre à votre question de l'autre jour.

En temps de peste, chacun reste sur sa terrasse, le fusil à la main, et tout chat qui rôde est tué impitoyablement ; il est bien entendu que les chrétiens seuls se livrent à cet exercice,

les musulmans ne croyant pas à la contagion de la peste.

Veuillez agréer, etc., LOTTIN DE LA VAL.

P. S. Quant aux Chèvres d'Angora, je ne puis vous en rien

dire. J'ëi traversé la haute Arménie et le Kurdistan deux fois: là première, dtirant l'automne et l'hiver, saison des neiges; lii seconde, à là fin dti printemps, alors que les troupeaux étaient dans lès plus hautes montagriès. J'ai vu beaucoup de Chèvres, ftiais sàhs étudier leur pelage -, cela n'entrait pas d'ailleurs dans mes instructions et je n'avais pas les connaissances nécessaires. Votre Question, monsieur, m'a fait regretter de n'avoir pas ajouté cette page à mes observations; cela prouve une fois de plus" que le Gouvernement, lorsqu'il doniie de grandes mis- sions, rie saurait trop élargir le cercle des instructions.

I hope this time none will object to include this description in the text of the article.-- Zara-arush (talk) 20:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is Google translation: Mr. President, In recent days, when I had the honor to have you with me, you made me part of the opinion recently certified that the Cats said A'Angora exist or could not live in the vicinity of the ancient Ancyra . It is a mistake, and I hasten to send you this note to disabuse the world of learning.

I found this beautiful feline species on the large Armenian plateau Erzerouin, where the climate differs greatly from that of Angora. It is very large in Mourch (Kurdistan), this species is the dominant race.'ve Also found in the àBillis and the pachaship Bayazid, but the most beautiful I've seen belonged to the Archbishop of Van, a city located in eastern Kurdistan, on the borders of the Aderbaïdjan. He had three: a gray pearl, an orange, speckled with white and black, and the third completely white fur was beautiful, and we did not find anything extraordinary in this, as these animals are leKurdistan in common. I've also seen Alpéit among Mahmud Khan, Prince of Hékiars. I do not recall having seen in Persia, if I thought it might be interested in science, I would be concerned if my work despite numerous. But what will surprise you more is that despite the rise in temperature, found in Baghdad of Angora cats, only they are less beautiful than those who live on the northern slopes of the Taurus mountains Medication and must: we attribute this to the heated atmosphere or àl'hostilité desBagdadins? I do not know and you will solve the issue much more surely than I, I can tell you is that Baghdad residents are a tough war to cats, saying, reasonably enough, I think they bring the plague because of their fur and their habits. When the terrible plague raged in the city of caliphs, all communication is prohibited and each s'interne, mainly Christians, who reject the Islamic fatalism.

It is through the terraces, told me many Chaldeans, that the plague upon us. As each of these terraces, even when the plague has not prevailed for several years, she is at all times defended by a thick, high wall made of Sheba and other thorny shrubs of the desert these formidable hurdles are maintained more care that houses kids. It's asking the cause of these thickets that seemed so dirty and so ugly in the beautiful sky Irack in this, city gardens, still beautiful despite her downfall, I had to answer your question the other day. In time of plague, both remained on his terrace, gun in hand, and any cat who prowls is ruthlessly killed, it is understood that only Christians are engaged in this exercise, Muslims do not believe in the contagion of plague.

Accept, etc.., LOTTIN OF THE VAL.

P. S. As for Angora goats, I can not tell you anything. J'ëi crossed the Upper Armenia and Kurdistan twice: first there, dtirant autumn and winter snow season; lii second, there dti late spring when the flocks were in the highest montagriès. I saw lots of goats, ftiais SAHS study their fur - this did not, however, in my instructions and I did not have the necessary knowledge. Your question, sir, made me regret not having said this page to my observations, it proves once again that "the Government, when doniie large missions, not laugh too widen the circle of instructions.

Best wishes, -- Zara-arush (talk) 21:15, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Possible Good Article nomination

Zara has suggested this article could be nominated as a Good Article. I think it needs a couple of things doing before its nominated - I've put my suggestions here, so anyone who edits the article can pick them up. It's picky bits - the only thing that might be an issue is Zara citing herself, which will depend on how the reviewer takes it.

• Stability - I'm glad to see that the argument about what the cats look like has been resolved.
• Maintenance tags - needs the maintenace tags resolving and removing. I suspect these have all been dealt with ages ago
• Images - The caption which credits the photographer needs to be changed to remove the credit. The style guide says that the photographer details are contained in the license and shouldn't be included in the caption. The non free use rationale on the one non-free image (Laura Lushington's cat) appears fine to me.
• Prose - could do with a little bit of a copyedit here and there. There's a few words missing, and the section on the coat marking legends still seems a bit 'chatty' to me (Zara and I have disagreed on this before, so I don't want to edit that bit myself)
• Sources - there's a couple of formatting issues - sources 21-25 want formatting with a refname. Zara, you've cited yourself as a source a lot, and I think a reviewer will call attention to that. At the very least, the breed standard should be cited to the official fancy standard, not to anything you have written.

--Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC) This is so true ive never seen something truer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.36.204 (talk) 00:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I needs a lot more than "a couple of things" before this will be a GA. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 14:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I was being polite LOL. I'd really like to see all the articles on the swimming cats from the Van area rolled into one and improved to reach GA standard.Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Turkish Van & Van Cat

Resolved: The terms are in the right articles now, as of December 2011.

1. Van Cat (Van kedisi, Pisîka Wanê) is white cat. (Van Cat)
2. Turkish Van (this article) has typical "Van's patern" in its tail.

I don't know that Armenian alternative name vana katou / vana gadou is used for which cats. At least Van Kedisi is Turkish alternative name of Van Cat (not Turkish Van). In Kurdish generally Pisîka Wanê means Van Cat (not Turkish Van). Takabeg (talk) 14:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Վանա կատու (Vana katu) literally means Cat of Van, or Van's cat.--Yerevanci (talk) 15:20, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

"Vana Gadu" is also used in a well-known children's song in Armenia (about a Van cat that goes to Tabriz to get cream). Meowy 20:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I moved all that stuff to Van Cat, at least for as long as these remain separate articles. That said, trying to use the literal meaning of these non-English phrases as some kind of support for the notion that the Van Cat and Turkish Van are unrelated breeds is blatant original research and outright nonsense. They might be different, but that won't have anything to do with local linguistics. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 20:29, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge

Resolved: No consensus to merge Van cat into Turkish van after several years; reliable sources suggest the former is a naturally-occurring landrace, the later a cultivated breed based only in part on the landrace. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 20:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The unresolved merge proposals really need to be dealt with. Turkish Van, Van Cat and Van Cat naming controversy have all been proposed for merger (or for reaching a clear, reasoned consensus to not merge) for several years now. Regardless of the outcome of the debate, the articles are grossly confused and confusing, contradictory, and clearly pushing warring viewpoints rather than providing verifiable information from reliable sources, and this must be cleaned up one way or another. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 14:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Merge: I'm in favor of merging them all into Turkish Van and leaving Van Cat naming controversy as a categorized redirect to Turkish Van#Naming controversy. There is no reason that I can see to have a separate article on the traditional/natural/landrace version, the Van Cat, any more than we have such articles for the non-selectively bred original versions of the Siamese (it looked nothing like the pinch-faced, skinny things people are breeding now) or any other cat breeds. I think it is very, very clear that the present situation is a blatant WP:POVFORK, which is a Wikipedia policy violation. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 14:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
  PS: Correction: Traditional Persian cat is a separate article. A strong argument could be made for merging it, but it's not important. It is not a POV-fork like Van Cat, and does not raise the same problematic issues. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 15:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC) I retract the struck part; I have been convinced entirely that it is in fact appropriate for landraces to have separate articles, because they are in fact spearaet things from formal breeds that are in part based on them. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 20:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: This article is one of the first I ever edited. I have a book from 1980 (The Book of the Cat, ed Michael Wright and Sally Walters) which talks about these cats. The date is significant, as the "Turkish Angora" was only recognised by the US cat fancies in the 1970s, based on cats bred from stock imported from Turkey, and was initially restricted to whites until 1978. In the UK, cats from Turkey called angoras had been imported up to the 19th century, but were practically unknown in the 20th. A breed called "Angora" was given preliminary recognition in 1977 with all colours being recognised. This Angora cat arose from breeders recreating the look of the original Turkish cats, and is as related to the Balinese as it is to the original cat from Turkey.

So far so confusing. The 1980 article, I'm quoting because it seems to represent the point where the confusion started (not in the wars between Turkey, Armenia and anyone else in the area). The book noted that the original Angora cat is still found in Turkey, where the name "ankara kedi" is given to the odd-eyed white, but that other colours are known. It also noted that in the Van area, a subset of the Turkish cat exists in a red and white form, which will breed true, and it noted that the cats from Van enjoy swimming. These cats were imported to Britain and the US, and became known as the "Turkish" or "Turkish van" It doesn't say that the only cats in Van are red and white. Some OR undertaken by myself trawling Flikr for people's holiday snaps of cats taken in the Van area showed that cats from Van with other coat colours and markings also swam.

The problem therefore is that a Van kedi or van kedisi is a real turkish angora cat; while the van cat from Van is a specific subset of the real turkish angora cat, which lives in Van, is sometimes red and white, and enjoys a dip and is called a turkish can; while the angora cat isn't a real turkish angora cat at all, and the Turkish Van is an american cat bred from cats from the Van area, is sometimes red and white, and enjoys a dip.

Pass the aspirin.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

It's actually more complicated than that, since the Turkish Van (whether or not this is the same as the Van Cat) isn't the same as the Turkish Angora; they're from different parts of Turkey. Just speaking of the natural breeds; not sure what relevance any of it has to Europe- and US-bred cats from other stock that are made to simply look like Turkish cats. Would you agree that one rather than three articles is the place to write about this encyclopedically? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 01:28, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually SMcCandlish, I believe the problem is that the cats are the same in Ankara and Van - the coat characteristic with the long silky coat with no undercoat, and long gracile body (as opposed to the persian which has a woolly undercoat and is built like a brick outhouse) - is common to cats throughout Turkey. It is the western breeders which appear to have created a distinction between ankara kedisi (cats from Ankara) and van kedisi (cats from Van). As you'll see in the article itself, a great number of the cats being described are odd eyed all-white, which would make them ankara kedisi, or Angoras under the old western breed standards. Zara-arush (who spent a long time editing this article to her way of thinking, but was familiar with the region) in fact spent a long time arguing that the true van kedisi is an odd-eyed white, whereas the cats that Linda Lushington took home with her all had the "van pattern" markings. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That's all fine and good, if the sources are, for a "History" section somewhere; I don't see that this affects the merge proposal. What we need to deal with is that the registries largely recognize two breeds, under various names, but usually the Turkish Angora and Turkish Van. These are verifiable breeds in virtually all modern books about cats, and should be separate articles. There is no excuse for Van Cat naming controversy being an article, at all, and it has to merge somewhere, if kept (a complaint at WT:WikiProject Kurdistan strongly suggests it should just be deleted as noise; my own read suggests that some kernel of it is keepable as a section somewhere, so I'm not WP:AFDing it). Van Cat article appears to be a cross between an obvious POV forking, so that misc. Turk/Kurd/Armenian issues can be WP:SOAPBOXed about, and an honest attempt to create an article about the landrace or "natural breed" of cats native to the Van area. The POV fork has to be dealt with, and I cannot see a rationale for the landrace having its own article, instead of a section at Turkish Van. The only article on a cat landrace with a purebreed variant that has its own article is Traditional Persian cat, the existence of which is arguably justifiable under WP:SUMMARY, though I'd still favor merging them. With Turkish Van being a miserable stub, there's no such rationale for forking off a new article for the "traditional" or "natural" original stock. Months later, it's actually clear that real landraces should be at separate articles; while "traditional breeds" (i.e. early forms of formal breeds, derived from landraces) should be sections at the parent breed article, or forked off per WP:SUMMARY if the breed article is long. There isn't actually a rationale for merging landraces to breed articles; I was wrong on that. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 01:26, 3 March 2012 (UTC) If you're telling me that both of the "Turkish" breeds recognized by CFA, TICA, etc. are derived from the same landrace, and you're certain that this can be reliably sourced, that might complicate things. PS: One cat book from 1980 isn't a convincing level of reliable sourcing. I've managed to obtain the majority of the cat breed books published in English in the last 30 years, so I can probably help with sourcing things, but I'm going to be focusing mostly on rewriting the Manx (cat) article to GA/FA standards. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 12:02, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I've only reviewed this in the sketchiest way, so my opinion probably isn't worth much. I'd prefer to have the entire thing under a single article, as I believe it allows greater access to the subject and surrounding issues as a whole. The issue then is what the article name ought to be, which complicates matters, and I'm not sure there is a simple solution for that. So I'm not quite supporting a merge at this point but not rejecting one either. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• Keep: The Turkish Van, even under its former name of Turkish cat, dates as a breed only from 1969. The markings on a Turkish Van are a result of selective breeding: Ashford and Pond state that the original cats that were exported from Turkey were chosen because they all had the same colourings ("deep auburn markings on the face and rings of the same colour on the tail"). The physical characteristics and breed standard are different from that of the Van cat, which is probably a landrace and has a documented history dating back several hundred years. The Van cat is not a Turkish Van under the breed standards used to define a Turkish Van. The Turkish Van is not a Van cat based on descriptions of Van cats in historical sources, in photographs and literature from the 1950s onwards, in its popular recognition in the Van region, and in the Van University’s Van cat breeding program. Ashford and Pond's 1972 "Rex, Abyssinian and Turkish Cats" described the cats brought back from Turkey as "true Angora type", referring to their body shape and length of coat. The "Van pattern" that (pedigree aside) is the only substantial difference between Angoras and Turkish Vans is not found on actual Van cats. The only thing the two articles have in common is the word "Van", and mere similarity of name is not a reason to merge articles. However the "Van Cat naming controversy" article is so full of OR it should be deleted. Meowy 20:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The salvageable parts of it have been merged to Van cat. I've also copied your post immediately above to that article's talk page since it is a great "nutshell" summary. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 01:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

BTW, surely ZaraArush must be the same person as Zarine Arushanian who wrote four of the articles that ZaraArush has added to this article as references? If this is correct, does this not make her additions OR? These articles contain a disapointing amount of dismal rubbish, and not even new rubbish. Yet again we are told of Urartian and Roman depictions of ringtailed cats - of course no such depictions exist. And Arushanian adds to it some home-grown paranoia about how the Turks are corrupting the purity of the Armenian Van cat by turning it white! How can she claim that and at the same time post the words of Pierre Victor Lottin who mentions an all-white Van cat owned by the Armenian bishop of Van? Meowy 21:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Notes, without taking a side. Likely but not proven, and it wouldn't be WP:OR if they're reliable sources, but pushing them certainly raises WP:NPOV and WP:COI issues. NB: Lottin is a patently unreliable source for anything but his own beliefs. He actually wrote that believes cats spread plague, when the opposite is known to be true. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 20:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Err .. how can the opposite be true, that they prevent the spread of plague! :) Actually, the Van cats in Van were very much at risk during the Bird Flu scares of the 2000s, several people who caught it in Dogubayazit were brough to hospitals in Van and there were fears that it could break out in the city, which would have meant the killing of all stray cats, and the risk that all the Van cats in the Van cat House would also be killed if one of them became infected. But, back to your point, I don'tt hink you can't really blanket-exclude a historic source because its author held medical beliefs that are now known to be false. You would be excluding about every source written before 1900, and a lot after it, if that policy was followed. It would be like saying let's Wikiwide-exclude most sources written by modern Americans since a good percentage of them believe in UFOs or the literal meaning of the Bible. Meowy 23:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Cats, especially feral, prevent the spread of plague by killing large numbers of the rats and mice that carry plague fleas. There's a lot written about this. The three proximal causes of the Black Death were overcrowding, low concern for hygiene (including tolerance of rodents everywhere as if they didn't matter, even in the home) and an active, centuries-long pogrom of killing cats as "the devil's familiar" (people didn't keep housecats, and their homes were full of rodents). Bubonic plague and avian flu are not related, so anything to do with cats and avia flu vetors isn't germane.

Old sources like Lottin are not unreliable for everything, but are unreliable for facts about scientific topics like cat breeding, and cannot be regarded as anything but anecdotal with regard to personal observations they report, since there was no real journalism or other professional editing back then – people with money wrote whatever they liked and were published with impunity. It's not important anyway. One report of a white cat is near-meaningless; there are white cats all over the world, and seeing one in one place does not establish evidence of an entire breed or landrace. I'm not saying Lottin cannot be quoted as an interesting anecdotal report (but in which article - is he talking about the Turkish Van, in the formal breed sense, or a Van cat, the landrace?) He can't plausibly be cited as a reliable source. I would quote him by name, because he provides an interesting historical perspective, but not attempt to write encyclopedic prose based on his letter as a quietly cited source. If further discussion is needed I strongly suggest starting a new thread. This aging wall-o'-text has covered too many unrelated subtopics for anyone to make sense of it without Herculean effort. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 01:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

This merge discussion really originated almost three years ago (this is just a more recent round). The actual worthwhile sourcing so far clearly indicates that the Van cat (Van kedisi, cat of Van) is a landrace of the Lake Van area, known for several centuries, and while it's clearly at least part of the basis for the formal Turkish Van (ex-"Turkish cat") breed it isn't the same thing, by definition (breed != landrace). So, not only is there no consensus for a merge (other than of the pointless and WP:POINTy Van cat naming controversy into Van cat), a merge is strongly contra-indicated, because we don't write one article on two different topics just because they're easily confused. I'm marking this entire thread {{Resolved}}. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 20:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)