Talk:Ukrainians

New collage proposal

File:Great Ukrainians.jpg

250px

I have designed a new collage of undisputedly great Ukrainians. It lacks noname sportsmen, one-hit pop stars, marginal American actors, dubious politicians and medieval varangians. Feedback is welcome. --Voyevoda (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Konstanty Ostrogski - From Lithuanian territory, now a national hero of Belarus....why is he Uke #1?--Львівське (говорити) 05:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Can we replace a couple of "dubious people" from my first montage and throw out the first line of people who are maybe of half-varangian origin. Women and men should be more or less equally present, and it is necessary to leave a few people well known today such as Farmiga, Ruslana, Bondarenko. On the other side; I don't know for Blohin, he is maybe of Russian ethnicity. Never heard for Pulyui. Mazepa should stay, and Sirko is not so relevant. Please, write 5 dubious people from my first photo, and your replacement suggestion. Bezborodko, Rozumovsky and Borovikovsky are good for me. Maybe two prominent women? First line will be throw up. For now, you do not have to draw a picture.--SeikoEn (talk) 19:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Paskevich is also good.--SeikoEn (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello Seiko. I'm glad you want to cooperate. I would like to read your argument-backed answer on Ukraine's etymology. But back to the collage: I think, Mazepa is too controversial, also within Ukraine. Unfortunately, there are not as many prominent and important women to justify an equal representation. This would mean that other really notable people would fall out. Ivan Sirko is an undisputedly hero in Ukraine. Pulyui is a notable Western Ukrainian physicist. Blokhin's mother was Ukrainian. Can you accept this collage? I tried to construct it without any controversial figures like Bandera or Mazepa. In exchange, I ignored Brezhnev, Kovpak and others. On the other hand, I accepted the controversial historian Hrushevskyi. --Voyevoda (talk) 19:58, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, Mazepa can be also out, but to my opinion he is real patriot. Now I am making new photo with your suggestions included, don't forget that photo must have background license. Please wait for ten minutes, my proposal will be finished then.--SeikoEn (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Mazepa must be in, and so is Bandera. The criteria in NOTABLITY, rather than ~being acceptable to someone. --Galassi (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Hehe, I wonder how our Georgian and German/Austrian friends will react when we try to put Stalin or Hitler into their collages. --Voyevoda (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Bandera is a must when discussing Ukrainians. Mazepa...sure, his labeling as a "patriot" is just historical revisionism, but I guess he counts by contemporary standards.--Львівське (говорити) 21:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see Joseph Stalin is indeed among the pictured Georgians. Närking (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Voyevoda, if you want to make agreement with me - don't do edits on page. Your photo will not be replacement for mine, without tricks or we will stop this work and back to unnecessary war editing.--SeikoEn (talk) 20:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that our dispute over the illustration is only one of the many problems. You still don't answer on etymology and many other things. So far you want to keep your version without answering or justifying. Until you bring facts and convincing arguments on my objections, my version should stay. And POV tags can't be simply removed! --Voyevoda (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Galassi, I agree with you, Mazepa should stay. ... Voyevoda, your photo is a bad copy of mine and it can't be good replacement because there is no license or summary for every person on the montage!! Do you understand that! You disappoint me, I thought you want a truce ... Return all photos on other pages or I will do it, but then we are finished with our agreement! Good night!--SeikoEn (talk) 20:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

To exclude Mazepa would be like excluding Louis XIV of France among the French people. Whether he is seen as a patriot or traitor, Mazepa is undoubtedly a very important person in the Ukrainian history. Närking (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, Mazepa is important. Voyevoda is not a subject any more. His intentions here are obviously not honest.--SeikoEn (talk) 21:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Lets scrap the names from the bottom, its a real pain to have to enlarge the pic to see who it is. Names should be in wiki links.--Львівське (говорити) 21:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Nobody noticed that Lyudmila Pavlichenko is much more famous then Ivan Kozhedub? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Names Poll

(sign beside the name and lets run a tally)

Statesmen

Politician or other notable public figures who has had a long and respected career in politics or government at the national and international level

• Stepan Bandera - --Львівське (говорити) 21:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
• Konstanty Wasyl Ostrogski - GreyHood ^Talk 19:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Bohdan Khmelnytsky - --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 13:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC); PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Kirill Razumovsky - GreyHood ^Talk 19:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Mykhailo Hrushevskyi- --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Leonid Brezhnev - --Львівське (говорити) 06:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Ivan Mazepa -- PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Symon Petliura - — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Medieval Rulers

• Vladimir the Great -
• Oleg of Novgorod -
• Yaroslav the Wise - — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Daniel of Galicia - --Львівське (говорити) 07:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Figures of Culture & Science

• Feofan Prokopovich - GreyHood ^Talk 19:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Dmitry Bortniansky - GreyHood ^Talk 19:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Vladimir Borovikovsky - GreyHood ^Talk 19:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Hryhorii Skovoroda - GreyHood ^Talk 19:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Nikolai Gogol - --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 13:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC); PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Ivan Kotlyarevsky - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Taras Shevchenko- --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 13:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Semen Hulak-Artemovsky - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Mykola Lysenko - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Nikolay Gamaleya - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Ivan Franko - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC); --Львівське (говорити) 06:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 13:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Lesya Ukrainka - Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 13:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) Närking (talk) 20:55, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - --Львівське (говорити) 06:59, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Anna Akhmatova - GreyHood ^Talk 19:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Borys Paton Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Valentin Glushko GreyHood ^Talk 19:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Athletes

• Andriy Shevchenko - --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 14:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC) — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Wladimir Klitschko - --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 14:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Vitali Klitschko - --Львівське (говорити) 05:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 14:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Sergey Bubka - GreyHood ^Talk 14:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Oleg Blokhin -
• Yana Klochkova — PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Lilia Podkopayeva - – Jwkozak91 (talk) 01:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
• Fedor Emelianenko -

Military man/woman

• Ivan Paskevich - GreyHood ^Talk 19:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Ivan Kozhedub - GreyHood ^Talk 19:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
• Lyudmila Pavlichenko - — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC); GreyHood ^Talk 19:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC) – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Not a poll

• We could try to identify some of the most popular Ukrainian persons by poll, but we must be very careful before inserting them into the lead image - simply polling them in won't do. For example, medieval rulers are highly problematic here because they lived before any kind of Ukrainian identity existed. Oleg of Novgorod, in particular, most likely was ethnically Norse, not even Slavic.
• Another problem is related to Bandera and similar controversial figures. Please note how the article Russians avoids featuring Lenin, Austrians avoids featuring Hitler, and other ethnic group articles avoid controversial persons. Bandera, who is hated and despised by Poland, Belarus, Russia and half of Ukraine itself, who was recently stripped of the Hero of Ukraine title, is clearly a very bad candidate. I wouldn't use him as an advertisment of Ukrainians, especially when there are so many less controversial and positive figures who achieved something substantial unlike Bandera. His inclusion would likely cause more arguments and edit warring. GreyHood ^Talk 13:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a tool for promoting anything.... so that is not the way to appose this picture... I personal think that about 93% of Ukraine does not care about Bandera and 95% of Poland, Belarus and Russia idem dito (if they ever heard his name anyway...). I think he simply is not noticeable enough... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

• Overall, I find recent Voyevoda's collage decent enough: it avoids controversial cases like mentioned above, doesn't fall into recentism and has a proper size (not overblown with persons like the current lead image). I think that while it could be improved, it is already definitely better than the current image and that's why I intend to replace the old collage with the new one unless there are better variants proposed soon and unless there are substantial arguments against. GreyHood ^Talk 14:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Must admit this picture is better then the previous on... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I think with polling we can at least achieve consensus on this and move on. If I'm the only one who thinks Bandera should be on there, so be it, he doesn't make the cut. Better than mentioning someone and getting lost in text and fighting about inclusion later. Bear in mind though, this infobox picture isn't for "Great Ukrainians" but just Ukrainians in general based on notability. Controversial or not not, we shouldn't be thinking that this is a form of promotion--Львівське (говорити) 19:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Principles

Are possible several principles of the 'Great Ukrainians' definition:

• ethnic Ukrainians with Ukrainian self-identification (Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Vladimir the Great etc were not ethnic Ukrainians)
• of Ukrainian descent (Leonid Brezhnev had both Russian parents)
• born in Ukraine (we need add Golda Meir, Leon Trotsky and Kazimir Malevich) Bogomolov.PL (talk) 18:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Malevich spoke ukrainian and self-identified (at times) as Ukrainian, although he was of ethnic Polish descent.Faustian (talk) 02:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

As an ethnic Ukrainian or as Ukrainian by the place of birth? And Malevich was not only "ethnic Polish descent" but he was a Pole born in Ukraine. The same with the millions of Ukrainian Jews - a lot of then spoke Ukrainian, were born in Ukraine, using a 'place of birth' definition we need add them to the article/collage, isn't it? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:51, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Although I aplaud your open aditude; except for Vladimir the Great the people you mention had not much impact on Ukraine... Of course Brezhnev had an impact on Ukraine but that seems more because Ukraine was part of the USSR then that he had a personal interest in Ukraine... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't tell Vladimir the Great had no impact on Ukraine, but he was not any ethnic Ukrainian. We need a 'Great Ukrainians' list so if we are using ethnic principle even Vladimir the Great is not valid. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The principles are good. This puts medieval guys aside, as well as not clear cases like Tchaikovsky and Brezhnev. GreyHood ^Talk 19:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

While he wasn't Ukrainian, he was a prototypical figure and a good starting point. By many articles he is considered a "Ukrainian ruler" and so forth, so while I don't think we should pad it with too many medieval figures, 1 or 2 of the most relevant ones would help give breadth to the candidates (the state and historians talk of Rus' as a starting point for Ukrainians, so it stands to reason that they follow this lineage. If the etymology didn't change and Ukrainians still called themselves Rusyny this wouldn't even be up for discussion. I also have no issue with Russians doing the same). Also, in regards to your other comments, Tchaikovsky was of Ukrainian descent and frequented Ukraine so he counts by some definition of the rule. Brezhnev was Ukrainian and self-identified as so (the comment that he had both Russian parents is incorrect). Also, we are doing ethnic Ukrainians, not people born in Ukraine, so Meir, Trotsky, and Melevich don't count.--Львівське (говорити) 19:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

If you mentioned Vladimir the Great - I think this person is the best as 'a starting point for Ukrainians' but not an Ukrainian properly as 1000 AD this nation didn't exist at all. With Brezhnev: he was not of Ukrainian descent, but born in Ukraine and at Korenizatsiya period declaring Ukrainian ethnicity but later Russian ethnicity only, you see. He is not a valid person using Ukrainian descent principle, isn't it?. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this just original research or assumptions on your part? The sources seem to state otherwise. --Львівське (говорити) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

What you mean as an "original research"? That mr Brezhnev was not of Ukrainian descent? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if we have proof that he was Ukrainian / self-identified as such, where are you getting this notion that he was 100% Russian and only pretended to be Ukrainian? --Львівське (говорити) 13:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

You are missing the discussion topic: mr Brezhnev was a person with no Ukrainian descent and so he is not a valid person using the Ukrainian descent principle. And mr Brezhnev changed his self-determination to Russian, you see. I mean using the principles I've listed makes several candidates not valid, I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 13:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

What am I missing? Sources confirm he was Ukrainian / self-identified as a Ukrainian. You're just claiming things without backing things up (ie. that he "was a person with NO Ukrainian descent"). That he changed his nationality later is hardly unusual. Russian & Ukrainian ethnicity/nationality can be pretty fluid; as a Russian-speaker, that he decided to call himself Russian as he moved up the CP ranks while working in Russia is hardly unusual, I'd do the same.--Львівське (говорити) 16:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

One more time again: mr Brezhnev is an invalid person if we will use a descent principle as mr Brezhnev had Russian parents (both father and mother). You, dear Львівське, are talking about his self-identification, but he changed this self-identification to Russian and is not an ethnic Ukrainian as he was a Russian descent and rejected his Ukrainian self-identification. But your idea "Russian & Ukrainian ethnicity/nationality can be pretty fluid" makes much more difficult to precise any Russian or Ukrainian person ethnicity. But mr Brezhnev is valid using place of birth principle (along with Golda Meir, Leon Trotsky and Kazimir Malevich) I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 17:53, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can prove your claim that both of his parents were ethnic Russians and he was only pretending to be Ukrainian, your statements are void.--Львівське (говорити) 19:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't claim mr Brezhnev "was only pretending to be Ukrainian" - this is your idea, you see, I never told about it. I was talking about his changing of self-identification, isn't it? And your principle is if a person has an Ukrainian name and was born in Ukraine - this person is Ukrainian [1], so if Ilya Brezhnev (father) and Natalya Mazalova (mother) both born in Brezhnevo village in Russian Kursk region are not Russians - you need correct your own principle, I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Tchaikovsky - he was born in Russia and is wellknown as a Russian composer but his grandfather was (possibly) an Ukrainian, but second grandfather - French. So can Tchaikovsky be listed as a French composer? We don't need a list of curious facts concerning persons wellknown as non-Ukrainians, but related to Ukraine, but a list of definitely Ukrainian great persons, I guess. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 19:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"possibly"? Again with the OR.--Львівське (говорити) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

"Possibly" as an information concerning Tchaikovsky's garndfather in Ukrainian Wiki is unsourced, you see, but I guess it is possible as Chaikovsky is a common name for Ukrainians, Ukrainian Jews and Poles. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems sourced to me by looking at his article...--Львівське (говорити) 19:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

• Seems be possible Tchaikovsky's grandgrandfather could be an Ukrainian Cossack. Two sites (cited in this article) are claiming this idea, but not a fact. That is why I was talking about probable Tchaikovsky's Ukrainian grandgrandfather. But it is too weak relation to claim Tchaikovsky was an ethnic Ukrainian, I see. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 11:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I want to state an obvious thing: Ukrainians are a big nation, plenty of people to choose from, and we easily could make a list of Great Ukrainians without sticking to controversial cases. Suggest take an example of Russians, Austrians and many other ethnic groups, forget about early medieval princes and people like Bandera/Mazepa, and choose from truly ethnic Ukrainians of 17th-21st centuries. GreyHood ^Talk 19:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Possibly. I think its better to spread things around from start to end and not just from the latter span of history. Just my take.--Львівське (говорити) 19:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Mazepa is not a controversial figure (at least not compared to Bandera) and played a big role in Ukrainian history... and obviously has suport to be in the picture... This picture is not a popularity contest or forbiden for people who killed people or did controversial things. Margaret Thatcher was also controversial in her lifetime but is stil a part of the picture with English people. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

He is controversial in that there are competing historiographies as to whether he was a patriot or villain. He is certainly an important figure, like him or not.--Львівське (говорити) 19:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Somehow other articles on the ethnic groups try to avoid controversies. And that's a good practice I believe: collage is really not that important afterall, and reducing the amount of stuff in the article that prompts to be challenged is always nice. GreyHood ^Talk 20:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if others are really a precedent. I mean, I checked out the Austria talk page and though Hitler was brought up twice, one was by an IP and there was barely any discussion on the matter from either side. We're a fervent, diligent bunch in eastern europe, it seems.--Львівське (говорити) 22:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Curent state of picture (9-12-2011)

Although I appreciate the efforts of Greyhood to create a new infobox picture; to me it looks strange that after 1962 Ukrainians are only known for there sport achievements.... What about Viacheslav Chornovil, who seems to be a good symbol of the struggle for independence and his death seems to reflect the "Mafioso" style of politics in Ukraine in the 1990's, to replace 1 sport dude (I sugest Sergey Bubka).

By the way: what will happen if Vitali Klitschko becomes big in Ukrainian politics? That would violate the unwritten rule of "no current politicians" we have created (and also seems to exist on similar pages).... Will he have to be removed from the picture? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 22:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The rest of the picture looks fine to me (with in mind the unwritten rule of "no current politicians"). In the future with all dust settled Yulia Tymoshenko will make a good candidate (in my opinion). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 23:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Collage in infobox (again)

There is some controversy about the collage in infobox again:
It has been removed twice by User:95.199.23.18 tonight. I must admit I have a distrust about the reasons this editor did this for: at first he pointed out to a non-existing discussion on this talkpage and then he mentioned a rule that can not exist since if a rule prevents us from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, we should ignore it and the new picture is an improvement since the majority wanted a new picture (see above) + didn't protest the new picture that has been here since weeks. If somebody wants to save bandwidth (within Wikipedia) make a new picture yourself and leave the old one until you placed that new picture. Lastly the wikipage Russians has the same collage-set up and nobody complained about too much data to the article there. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted again and hopefully the IP user can start a discussion here. It's best to come to a consensus here first and then make the changes. Närking (talk) 21:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

For security late me state: I think the collage 95.199.23.18 protests against is a big improvement in this article. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 21:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

As for as I can see IP is not interested in reaching consensus and acts like a vandalist. I requested a page protection here. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

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