Talk:United States

Human rights

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Territories - part of the U.S.?

Aren't territories part of the U.S.? The people who live in U.S. territories are U.S. citizens by birth, so how are they not part of the U.S.? Rklawton (talk) 17:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The CIA's World Fact Book includes possessions as part of its description of the United States.[2] Is there some other source that says possessions aren't part of the U.S.? Keep in mind that "Republic of the United States of America" redirects to this article, so it's not appropriate to narrowly define the U.S. for the purposes of this article as "states only". Rklawton (talk) 17:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"Republic of the United States of America" does not redirect to this article. In fact, nothing exists there and never has, according to the deletion log. Not that I see the relevance anyways. The CIA World Factbook entry also does not include the posessions as part of its description. For example, in geography under area, it specifically limits its description to the 50 states and the District of Columbia. The only area where I see the possessions listed is under "Dependent Areas," which the CIA defines as "nonindependent entities associated in some way with a particular independent state." That doesn't make them part of the associated country, but, well, associated with that country. Bermuda is listed for the UK, but is a British Overseas Territory, meaning it is not part of the United Kingdom but does fall under its jurisdiction. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The first lines at the top of the CIA article read: "Britain's American colonies broke with the mother country in 1776 and were recognized as the new nation of the United States of America following the Treaty of Paris in 1783. During the 19th and 20th centuries, 37 new states were added to the original 13 as the nation expanded across the North American continent and acquired a number of overseas possessions. " So not only is mention of America's possessions in the article, it's in the second sentence. Rklawton (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Apparently I forgot how I navigated to this article. Regardless, the article says it's about a country, and the territories are unquestionably part of the country as they fall under its laws. The fact that Wikipedia *doesn't* have a separate article for some over-arching entity that includes both the U.S. and its territories should also serve as a strong indication that these territories (or possessions) are part of the U.S. - as clearly they aren't some other separate legal entity with their own seats at the table of world governments. Rklawton (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Next, the demonym is "American" - a label that applies to anyone born in American Samoa, American Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, and more. Their citizenship is automatic - they are part of this country, and this article is about a country rather than just a segment of a country. As such, we should include mention of the *whole* country and not exclude significant minorities. Rklawton (talk) 17:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Now, I've presented a source that shows possessions to be part of the U.S. Unless you have a source that indicates my source isn't reliable or you have a source that contradicts my source, then you should concede the point. Rklawton (talk) 17:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, what a deeply specious argument you're making from the Factbook. Who cares if the Factbook mentions territories? The point is that it never says they are part of the United States. Only incorporated territories are part of the United States, and the only incorporated territory is Palmyra Atoll. The whole point of an unincorporated territory is that it is not part of the United States. People from U.S. territories are United States citizens because of congressional statute, not constitutional right. See Balzac v. Porto Rico. If Puerto Rico were part of the United States, people born there would have the constitutional right to citizenship. The Court ruled that they did not have such a right, and, so far as I'm aware, that decision has never been overturned. Puerto Rico is not part of the United States. It is a possession of the United States whose inhabitants have been granted U.S. citizenship by Congress. ETA: territories are, of course, under the jurisdiction of congress, but they do not "fall under US laws" in the sense that all constitutional rights automatically apply there. Some do, and some don't, and for the ones that don't, it's up to Congress to decide whether to extend them to the territories. The situation of Puerto Rico today is a completely different situation from the situation that, say, Alaska had in 1958, where it was an incorporated territory and fully considered part of the United States. john k (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Additional source: 18 USC § 2340 - DEFINITIONS:
"(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States."[3] Rklawton (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

You cite the Factbook, but what about the fact that it does not include the territories' population and area in the country's? The territories are also listed there as "dependent areas". They are dependent on the U.S., not part of it. There is a difference between incorporated territories like Arizona Territory and Palmyra Atoll, and unincorporated territories like the Virgin Islands and the Philippines. Man and Jersey and Gibraltar are not part of the UK, and Puerto Rico and Guam are not part of the U.S. That the U.S. code supplies a definition for the United States is presumably because most of the laws made in Washington apply to the territories, but obviously not all, nor do all constitutional provisions automatically apply like they would for an incorporated territory. It's easier to specify the laws that do not apply to the territories than the ones that do.

Finally, quoting from Political status of Puerto Rico: "... according to the U.S. Supreme Court's Insular Cases [Puerto Rico] is "a territory appurtenant and belonging to the United States, but not a part of the United States."" --Golbez (talk) 21:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Your link to the US legal code only defines what the term "United States" means within the context of Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C. It does not apply to any other chapters, let alone serve as a legal definition of the term or the status of possessions. Essentially, the writers of that law decided to use shorthand and say "United States" when they meant "anywhere within US jurisdiction," and so defined it as such for their purposes. To state this another way, there is a difference between owning something (or possessing it, as in a possession) and it being a actual part of you. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 22:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed changes to "Transportation"

Wikih101 recently made some provisional changes to the Transportation section. While a couple were useful, several made improper use of the presented sources and introduced poor grammar. Here's a summary of the ones that have been reverted or substantially altered:

• The editor wished to alter the statement "Personal transportation is dominated by automobiles" to "Personal transportation is dominated by automobiles but during the [sic] recent years, this has significantly shifted to public transportation." The source brought in establishes nothing of the kind, only that "Public transportation ridership in the third quarter of 2011 increased 2 percent over 2010." It says not a word about any supposed shift away from automobiles to mass transit. The change has been reverted.

• The properly styled phrase "drivers and nondrivers" was changed to the poorly styled "drivers and non drivers." The change has been reverted.

• The well-sourced passage "Mass transit accounts for 9% of total U.S. work trips, ranking last in a survey of 17 countries" was cut without discussion. The change has been reverted.

• The editor wished to alter the statement "While transport of goods by rail is extensive, relatively few people use rail to travel" to "While Rail transportation in the United States is extensive, the railway system is mostly used for transporting cargo, with increasing ridership on passenger trains like Amtrak." This introduced the unnecessary and ungainly repetition of "transportation"/"transporting", made the last clause a grammatical non sequitur, and brought in an unsupported (and ungrammatical) claim about trains "like" Amtrak. The passage has been revised and corrected to focus on the verifiable growth in Amtrak ridership.

• The editor wished to alter the statement "Light rail development has increased in recent years but, like high speed rail, is below European levels" to "Light rail development has increased in recent years but like high speed rail, it is below some European nations." The change was unwarranted (the source refers to "Europe", not some portion of it) and, again, introduced bad grammar. The change has been reverted.—DCGeist (talk) 15:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

left wing dribble

Does the blatant anti-American left leaning tone to this article (lifted from Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States) need be mentioned? I often wonder, why is there no mention of Canadians or Mexicans displacing natives under their articles? Were those countries not settled by the same europeans? Wiki has enervated itself with such nonsensical political posturing. It's a joke now.--MarioSmario (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Have you read Canada or Mexico? Both cover the "displacement" of natives in significant detail, similar to this article. --Daniel 17:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but they mention it was taking place in the United States, too. Why not mention Canada and Mexico (and Australian and New Zealand) in the United States article? Why must Canada's crimes against humanity be somehow lessened by the reference the same thing occurred in the US? Keep trying, comrade.--MarioSmario (talk) 22:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like your problem is with the Canada article, not this one. Unless your real problem is with the truth...—DCGeist (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I gotta say, the criticism doesn't make much sense. I thought this article is pretty balanced on treatment of Native Americans. If anything, it doesn't go into enough detail. Have you looked at the Mexico article? It devotes a good chunk to the Conquest, and there are several related articles devoted to the Conquest and subsequent holocaust. Likewise, Australia has loads of articles devoted to the various massacres of the aborigines. Perhaps if you point out a specific line or section? Boneyard90 (talk) 23:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

"Comrade?" Is this a bad thing? Carptrash (talk) 03:18, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

If they dribble, then yes. HiLo48 (talk) 05:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Our blocked colleague presumably meant "drivel". I note this because I'm part of the vast anti-U.S. conspiracy that seeks to discredit the true American patriots at any cost. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a black helicopter to catch, mate. —David Levy 05:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

This page sure gets some strange comments.Boneyard90 (talk) 06:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Folks who characterize Howard Zinn as " blatant anti-American" and then toss around "comrades" lose credibility with me quickly. As do those who dribble. Well, except some. Carptrash (talk) 16:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Update on education

The article reads:

Of Americans twenty-five and older, 84.6% graduated from high school, 52.6% attended some college, 27.2% earned a bachelor's degree, and 9.6% earned graduate degrees

but the data is from 2003.

It must be updated: here is a link to 2011 data: [4]

Skydeepblue (talk) 09:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)