Talk:Wealth tax

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Why does this get a page? It's not even a thing, there's no such thing as a "wealth" tax, it's just a made up campaign term

This is explained on the first line: Because of the broad term "wealth", property tax, capital transfer taxes (inheritance tax, gift tax), endowment tax and capital gains taxes are sometimes referred to as "wealth taxes".

There is indeed such a thing as a wealth tax. Please see this Grundle2600 19:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Wealth taxes are talked about in economics programs because they are both economically viable and offer some good equity arguments while taking some of the efficiency burden off of income taxes (why work harder if you're in a high marginal tax rate?). They just don't happen to be used very often, nor, I would argue, are they too politically viable as it often tends to be the wealthy who hold legislative powers.NByz (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a response to the first sentence: "Why does this get a page? It's not even a thing, there's no such thing as a "wealth" tax, it's just a made up campaign term". In Sweden there existed until January 1, 2007 a wealth tax that perfectly fit the description in the first paragraph of the article ("a levy based on the aggregate value of all household holdings actually accumulated as purchasing power stock (rather than flow), including owner-occupied housing; cash, bank deposits, money funds, and savings in insurance and pension plans; investment in real estate and unincorporated businesses; and corporate stock, financial securities, and personal trusts."). The tax was even named the "wealth tax" ("förmögenhetsskatt" in Swedish). Just to set that straight for anyone who may question the existence of such a thing as a wealth tax. Sarnalios (talk) 16:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparent problem in article

There's an apparent problem with the math here. Unfortunately I can't read French, so can't verify one of the numbers, but hopefully someone else can.

To quote from the article "Wealth_tax":

"...in no place where this kind of tax is in place does it contribute to more than 0.3% of the total tax intake ([1])."

and

"France. In 2003 out of €786 billion "general government" receipts, €174 billion was collected on "income and wealth". No further breakout is disclosed. Data is from the Institut National de la Statistique et des Etudes Economiques."

€174 billion out of €786 billion is 22% - however "general government receipts" might not (probably does not) mean the same as "total tax intake". A clarification of the two would be useful.

Also, it specifies "Income and Wealth", so (presumably) the bulk of that amount is made up from income tax and not wealth. I can read basic French, but I'm not proficient enough to want to stake figures and information from it in an encylopaedia. :—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.7.248.129 (talk) 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

I know that Wikipedia's not a WP:RS, but Taxation in France says that the ISF (wealth tax) accounts for 2% of government revenue. CRGreathouse (t | c) 17:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed addition

The Arguments in Favor section is incomplete and seemingly suggests that only one man has ever argued in favor of wealth tax. I propose to expand this section to about 4 paragraphs. I have been studying tax reform for 6 months and feel well-informed on the topic. I am in favor of a wealth tax as part of comprehensive tax reform in the US, but feel I can present arguments in favor in an unbiased manner. In all my reading, I found few well-constructed, comprehensive arguments in favor of a wealth tax, so I put one together on a website I developed to advocate for tax reform http://fairsharetaxes.org. I think I would feel would feel obliged to use the site as a reference (It contains detailed calculations, examples, arguments that would be too long and complex for a Wiki article.) On the other hand, such a self-reference seems like self-promotion of my own ideas or a circular reference. Feedback? Mindful123 (talk) 04:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)mindful123Mindful123 (talk) 04:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

==Proposed alteration== The arguments in favor of the wealth tax are biased and are unfounded. The first line states that it's generally held that taxes should be commensurate with the ability to pay. This paragraph is an editorial not an unbiased article.

==Proposed alteration== The "arguments in favor" section is now quite comprehensive, but the arguments against section is incomplete. I intend to add extensively to the ""arguments against" section, adding several arguments against and extending existing arguments to help balance the article.Mindful123

yeah that needs to be fixed, theres lke nothing in the arguments against section. 128.2.246.16 (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

==Proposed alteration== The "arguments in favor" section of the "Wealth Tax" page are first and foremost unfounded, and come across from a biased point of view. The comments in that section are mostly from one single man's own "study" on the wealth tax. For example this person states a claim that is drawn completely out of speculation on an outcome, and then provides a citation leading right to his own website. It is not prudent to make unfounded claims clearly showing your overwhelming support for a "wealth tax", and back up your own claims with a citation that leads to your own website with the identical claims. It is not acceptable by wikipedia standards for you to present biased opinions on the outcome of "what if" questions. Furthermore, you present the biased opinions in disguise of empirical evidence, as clearly shown by the fact that you are basing your comments on your own "calculations" and predictions. You say your website was "developed to advocate for tax reform", and continue to state that you are unbiased. If your website was a deep study on empirical evidence on idea's of a "wealth tax" it would be unbiased, but having a site that presents your own assumptive viewpoints on a "wealth tax" and stating that the site is an advocacy site for such a tax is not unbiased at all. In summary, you present your biased view of what you believe on a government issue, and then back up your own claim with a link to your own site which advocates for a wealth tax.

Maryland's "Millionaire tax"

I removed this paragraph because it is not a wealth tax in the sense of this article. Adrianw61 effectively reverted this, without giving an explanation why. This paragraph would be better suited in another article. What do others think? ConorBrady^.ie (caint) 08:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

==Proposed alteration== I rewrote the paragraph to better fit in line with it's relation to the idea of a "wealth tax". To understand my basis for the paragraph you must understand that the term "wealth tax" is fairly loosely defined. A wealth tax can be any tax that is solely targeted at the highest income earners. In the case of the "millionaire tax", it was solely targeted at the highest income earners. If everyone's tax had been raised, then it would not have been considered a "wealth tax", but since it was an unbalanced tax hike that was only imposed on the highest income earners it can be considered a "wealth tax"; if you are wealthy you are most likely a high income earner, and if you are a high income earner, you are the only one taxed, hence "wealth tax".

Also this is a terribly unbalananced article. There is a plethora of information in the "Arguments in Favor" section, much of which is very biased, and barely any in the "Arguments Against", and many times sections of the "Arguments Against" get deleted by people with narrow minds and narrow viewpoints. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrianw61 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It may be "loosely defined", but the definition of the opening paragraph states: "a levy based on the aggregate value of all household holdings actually accumulated as purchasing power stock (rather than flow)". If you wish to augment its meaning to include a high marginal income tax, then you will need to alter the lead; this would have to be done after concensus. ConorBrady^.ie (caint) 21:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Whoever put this Maryland millionaire's tax section here does not understand what a wealth tax is. The point is _specifically_ to contrast the wealth tax with income taxes like the millionaire's tax, because the wealth tax is essentially a tax on one's aggregate net worth (i.e. "aggregate value") and _not_ a tax on income (i.e. "flow"). I repeat, the wealth tax is _not_ a tax on the flow of income, but a tax laid on the entire aggregate net value of a person. The millionaire's tax is an income tax specifically targeted at high income levels, and not at net worth. It is therefore an income tax and not a wealth tax. I get the feeling from reading this page that people think "wealth tax" is any tax on the "wealthy." This is not true according to the very definition at the top of the page. Now, you may not like the wealth tax or agree that it is good policy, but that's no excuse for misrepresenting what it actually is. Paragraph will be deleted.Artnesten (talk) 17:13, 12 November 2010 (UTC)artnesten

Misleading Arguments In Favor

In the "Arguments In Favor" section, there is a suggestion that the U.S. should adopt a "wealth tax" similar to the Netherlands 1.2% tax on wealth. It states that the correct way to look at a 1.2% tax on wealth is to "assume" a 4% annual return, which in turn makes the "wealth tax" similar to a 30% tax on investment return(unrealized and realized gains). This is incredibly misleading for two major reasons. One problem is that most people do not have their entire "net worth" in an investment account earning an average 4% annual return, which means that a 1.2% tax on wealth could only be calculated on a case by case basis. For example, if someone lives in a 2 million dollar house(appreciated over time), has 1 million in an retirement investment account , and is currently in retirement, according to the proposal would have a 4% appreciation of assets, which would equate a 40K gain for the investment acct and 80k gain in the value of their property - adding up to a total of 120k (80k of which is very illiquid). The proposed "wealth tax" would tax the "net worth" of 3mil at 1.2%, which is a tax of 36k. The person in the example has a 36k tax liability and 120k in annual returns. The person will have to take almost all of the4% return from their investment account to pay the 36k "wealth tax", leaving them to most likely draw down their principal or sell their house. You could argue that even under this scenario they could get by through retirement under the "wealth tax", but there is an even great key idea missing from this "wealth tax" proposal. When you tax "wealth" at 1.2%, and then claim that it is just like having a 30% tax on a deemed investment return of 4%, you will be very upset to realize that something called "inflation" ruins that claim. If you take the average inflation rate over time of 3% and include it in the calculation of the deemed 4% return, the real rate of return becomes 1%. Now you can not claim that taxing wealth at 1.2% is the same as a 30% tax on 4% investment returns. The reality with inflation is that the 1.2% tax on wealth now translates into a 120% tax on the 4% (1% real rate) investment returns, which I highly doubt you would want to continue to use as the prime support for this "wealth tax". Adrianw61 (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

How it's actually done is not as you're painting it. The reference leads to this tidbit:

"Box 3-- Income from savings and investments falls in this box. The rate is 30% and is levied on a deemed fixed yield of 4% of the total net worth. Net worth is the value of the assets, which may be savings deposits, rented property, shares etc., after the deduction of debt, based on the average balance for the year."

The $2m property is not taken into account, and the pension investment liability can be offset against debt. There is also the argument of the fact that this isn't hypothetical; it is actually done in the Netherlands. If it didn't work, as you imply, then the tax would have been repealed. That it has not been repealed shows that at the very worst, it works. ConorBrady^.ie (caint) 04:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

One of the purposes of a wealth tax is to encourage wealthy people (so-called "job creators") to do more with their wealth than hoard it. This might be seen as better policy than taxing (and thereby penalizing) investment, which is a priori a social good. Also, your argument from inflation doesn't hold water: generally speaking, good investments will track inflation, making a constant return of 4% pretty reasonable. One might further presume that in a meritocracy, someone capable of becoming wealthy in the first place should be capable of managing his or her affairs to achieve a return of at least 4% on his/her net wealth -- this should be directly implied from the premises of how the free market operates. Thus, any already-wealthy person incapable of continuing to achieve good enough returns is probably just not working hard enough. And on the topic of real property: this is simply a matter of personal choice. If you choose to remove your wealth from the economy, this will come at a cost. LeoTrottier (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2011 (UTC)