Talk:Welsh language

Number system

The section on counting / number system claims a system based on 20's, my understanding (eg from the Usbourne Learn Welsh?? IIRC) is that the 20's system is prevalent in the North and the Chinese style one-ten-two (12, "twelve") is used more in the South. The former may be traditional, but the later is certainly used in schools, on buses and trains and in the post offices around here - never heard an actual Welsh speaker use it, but then people tend to use the international lingua franca of business in these parts. It would be interesting to note whether the National Curriculum for Wales mentions both counting systems and which it uses (particularly as the Chinese style is reportedly easier to pick up for kids) and whether this might standardise usage across the principality (I guess a similar reference for the language as a whole would be of interest). Pbhj (talk) 03:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

What you call the "Chinese" style is certainly easier to learn, but my dear departed Mam certainly regarded it as kiddies' talk and a sure sign of a dysgwr if an adult used it (this was back in the 70s). -- Arwel (talk) 00:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please remember this is the English language Wikipedia, dysgwr means learner? Like I said it's the official method around South Wales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbhj (talk • contribs) 14:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The number system based on 10s was introduced in the mid-nineteenth century in Welsh, per Gramadeg y Gymraeg, Peter Wynn Thomas, p295 (1996, University of Wales Press), as it is simpler than the system based on 20s. Both systems are still used. The ordinals, however, are still based on the 20s system. The system taught in schools for the cardinal numbers is indeed the system based on 10s (only) so eventually the older system should die out, except perhaps for some vestigial survivors, although native speakers have not been in any hurry to ditch the older system - having both systems seems to have worked for a century and a half!

The distinction made between North and South is in this case oversimplistic - you will find the 20's system used in everyday speech amongst native speakers all over Wales. The industrial South is perhaps somewhat different in that the proportion of native speakers from other parts of Wales relative to native speakers originally from the South is high. Also the proportion of children in Welsh medium schools in the industrial South who don't hear Welsh from native speakers at home has also been high for a long time. So current language patterns in the industrial South can differ somewhat to patterns elsewhere. Lloffiwr (talk) 21:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, the 'traditonal system' is still used very widely in south Wales. ALL south wales dialects have it recorded as the normal system of counting, however the influence of schools across Wales has lead to a decline in this system. There is no such thing as an 'official system' in south Wales or in any part of Wales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 01:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that the usage is highly context dependent. So the 'traditional' system is always used in certain contexts (dates, ages, time, ordinals etc.) while the 'new' system is always used in others (mathematics etc.), with some generational differences, I'm sure, and some contexts where either could be used. (And years are named differently, too.) But the article only mentions the use of the decimal system in Patagonia.

One of my tutors the other day mentioned that children in Welsh schools (i.e. Welsh medium schools) initially perform better in maths than their counterparts in English medium schools because the Welsh decimal system is easier than the English one. (e.g. 'eleven' is just 'one ten one' etc.) --Dienw (talk) 14:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Registers

I believe that "formal" and "literary" Welsh are also commonly distinguished although I haven't got far enough in learning Welsh to have been formally introduced to the latter yet.

One of the biggest differences between the formal (and literary) and colloquial registers is the use of concise impersonal verb forms where "cael" would be used in colloquial speech.

• telir fi for dw i'n cael fy nhalu/caf i fy nhalu (I am/will be paid)
• talwyd fi for ces i fy nhalu (I was paid)
• telid fi for ro'n i'n cael fy nhalu (I used to be paid)

Why pick the different endings in the third person plural out? There are similar differences in at least the first person plural as well. There are a lot of similar differences here - in the actual pronouns, in inflected prepositions, in the verb stems and in the endings. Maybe it would be better to make a more general comment and then just give an example (such as the third person plural ending change mentioned at present). It's worth noting that some of the differences shown in the article really reflect nothing but silent letters in speech.

I think the variation in verb forms used in this article makes it more confusing than necessary. That is, it includes "rydw i", "dwi" and "dw i", for example, which may not obviously look related to somebody with no knowledge of the language.

What's mentioned and what's not seems rather arbitrary to me but it is hard to say without knowing more about the history of the article and the intentions of the authors. It might, though, be worth mentioning the use of 'wedi' when discussing tenses since this is very common in speech. And it might be worth noting that the tenses in Welsh don't correspond exactly to those in English without going into the details of the complexities. (For example, af i is not exactly "I'll go". It's considered the "continuous present" rather than a future tense, even in the colloquial register. And both bues i and ro'n i tend to be translated the same way because English, unlike Welsh, doesn't distinguish these tenses.)

It isn't true that inflected forms of verbs are "invariably" used in formal/literary Welsh. Elsewhere the article correctly notes that they are much more commonly used in these registers, but there are certainly cases of the periphrastic forms in the 1955 Bible, for example. (I can't say about the 1588 version but I'm assuming the formal/literary registers covered here are intended to modern.)

--Dienw (talk) 15:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

There was a 1955 Welsh Bible? I only knew about the 1588 (and its 1620 revision) and the 1988 versions. Our article doesn't mention a 1955 version. —Angr 15:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

The distinction of "Colloquial Welsh" and "Literary Welsh" is at best a useful guide to registers, at worst a misleading categorisation which encourages slackness in language use. Gareth King is wrong in his extreme view that they might be considered separate languages (as cited in this article), and his arguments are little more than sophistry. You could do similar thing with English, and suggest that "If ah wuz gunna do va'" is "Colloquial English" while "Were I to commit myself to that" is "Literary English" - such differences are merely questions of register, sociolect and orthography. Most differences between "CW" and "LW" consist in what teachers of most other languages would simply label spelling mistakes (e.g. absense of word-final -f, elision of verbal particles, simplification of non-accentuated diphthongs; elision of dental fricatives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwybedyn (talk • contribs) 11:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Literary Welsh is a pro-drop language that tends to inflect its contentful verbs directly. Colloquial Welsh is a non-pro-drop language that almost exclusively uses periphrasis, inflecting auxiliary verbs and combining them with the nonfinite verbal noun. These are highly significant differences in syntax – by no means "merely register, sociolect and orthography" – and register differences in English pale in comparison. +Angr 13:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Periphrasis is far from absent from the written language of any period. Here is one easy example from the Bible: "Boed i chwi, sydd â chariad yn wreiddyn a sylfaen eich bywyd, gael eich galluogi..." (Paul to the Effesians, 3:18). That is anything but "Colloquial" in register. Here's another example taken at random from the web: " fel yr oeddid yn dod yn fwy hysbys yn llenyddiaeth y cyfnod a flaenorodd ei gyfnod ef, deuai'n fwyfwy tebygol fod rhai o wreiddiau barddoniaeth serch a barddoniaeth natur Dafydd ym marddoniaeth ei flaenorwyr..."

Such examples could be multiplied endlessly: periphrasis is present in both formal and informal registers and is far from being an indicator of separate languages. The spoken language frequently uses inflected verbs nonperiphrastically, as all the following show - "des i adre' am chwech"; "weles i'r ffilm ddo^"; "yfon ni ddigon i feddwi eliffant"; "ffonia' i ti fory, iawn?"; "wela' i chi wedyn". These could all be rephrased periphrastically, of course, but that is not the point. The recent habit of over-using 'gwneud' as an auxiliary verb (especially visible in online news reports) is unwarranted and stylistically poor - Welsh, as any language, has various possibilities of expression for good reasons, among them flexibility and avoidance of monotony.

You are of course correct that in speech pronouns are used more frequently (and differently), but that is a rather small and singular point (in any case, cf. the use of the pronoun in the first citation above). Arguing for 'CW' vs 'LW' on this basis is much like arguing for a 'Literary English' on the basis of its more frequent usage of the subjunctive, its less frequent use of fillers such as 'like', 'y'know', etc., or its more consistent representation of consonants (as in my previous comment).

I repeat that the majority of differences between so-called 'colloquial' and 'literary' Welsh are of register, etc., and in the example I gave previously the differences are indeed *merely* as I stated. The drawing of a distinct 'language' line between the registers does violence to the language and injustice to its users (especially those younger users who are at risk of being miseducated into speaking - and writing - merely an impoverished patois).

It is one language in all its richness.Gwybedyn (talk) 09:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It's rather a red herring to say that the differences are "merely" of register. Register just means that two or more different language varieties are used dependent on context. It says nothing about how different they have to be. Imagine a country where one language (say French) is used in some contexts, and another (say Swahili) is used in others. This would be a matter of register. It doesn't matter that the two language varieties used are unrelated. Nor, incidentally, is this just a hypothetical example distant from reality. This kind of bilingual situation is actually relatively common.

It's also something of a meaningless debate whether or not literary and colloquial Welsh are separate languages or two forms of the same language. There just isn't a principled way of making the distinction. It's like asking how many grains of sand make a pile. The important point about what Gareth King said is that the differences between the kind of Welsh you get in colloquial contexts and the kind of Welsh you get in literary contexts are notably greater than with English and with many other languages.

And of course both periphrasis and nonperiphrasis are used both in colloquial and literary Welsh; but there is a notable trend towards more periphrasis in the colloquial varieties than in the literary varieties.

All that's really being said is that there are reasonably large differences between the forms of Welsh used in colloquial registers and the forms used in literary registers. This is a fact, but it isn't a negative fact, nor a fact unique to Welsh, or to minority languages. It's just something interesting about Welsh. garik (talk) 10:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and to give some perspective on the separate languages question: it's probably true to say that the differences between colloquial and literary Welsh are greater than between some Romance languages, but smaller than between some forms of Arabic.

In any case, I think, Gwybeden, you may be inferring too much from the claim that they could be treated as separate languages. They could be, but that doesn't mean anything bad. We should still expect school leavers to be able to both write formal letters and chat to the milkman, just as we expect the same for English in England (and Wales). Saying that they're far enough apart to be considered separate languages has no bearing whatsoever on that. garik (talk) 11:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

One further point of grammar: "Gwybed-YN" is a masculine noun in either 'colloquial' or 'literary' Welsh. Perhaps you are indeed thinking of a different language, Garik ;) Gwybedyn (talk) 09:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Neu efallai mai "typo" oedd hi (neu "thinko", fel maen nhw'n deud/ys dywedir — meddylo, tybed?)... Mae'n ddrwg iawn gen i, beth bynnag! garik (talk) 07:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Garik, on the English Language wikipedia you are required to use English Language. You are allowed to talk about other languages here but you must do it in the appropriate language. If I remember I'll check and see if it's appropriate to delete comments made in the wrong language, I assume it is as it is effectively spam. Pbhj (talk) 16:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

As a user with basic Welsh, I can assure Pbhj that there's no need to delete the above message on a misplaced assumption of spamming - it's a gracious apology for making a typo in Gwybedyn's name, and wondering how you'd say "thinko" in Welsh, that's all. Bencherlite^Talk 16:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Spoken in borderlands of England?

Does anyone have any figures for this? I think it needs to be a significant population, if your Auntie lives in Hereford and speaks Welsh when you visit that doesn't count ;0) Welsh is barely spoken at all in the South East of Wales. Perhaps the Middle/North East is different? Specific towns and numbers of Welsh speakers need to support such a claim IMO. The only relevant stats I could find were from the 2006 Labour Force survey showing 0.4% of UK population speak Welsh at home vs. 93.7 English. Non-indigenous languages aren't queried and are only grouped as 5.4% "Other". I suspect Urdu would be a large percentages of this. Pbhj (talk) 11:13, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I doubt you'll find a specific number of speakers on the boarders between England and Wales (how for do these boarders stretch? Yards, metres, miles?). I resent your remark "Welsh is barely spoken at all in the South East of Wales;" I come from South-East Wales, and speak Welsh! Mid-Wales is scarcely populated, though both Mid and North Wales have a high percentage of Welsh speakers. Xxglennxx (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It certainly is spoken in England. In the last report I saw, some villages in England still had a Welsh-speaking majority. Mainly concentrated in Shropshire, close to Oswestry. I think it is likely that the language may no longer be the majority language anywhere in England, but there are certainly a number of villages in England where the percentage of Welsh-speakers remains much higher than the average percentage of Welsh speakers in Wales.JdeJ (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Reference a specific village in which more people speak Welsh day to day than English then we can at least have a marker. 91.108.128.119 (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to see a reference for this. A village that's similar to, say, Aberffraw in Ynys Môn, which is 81% Welsh-speaking :D Xxglennxx (talk) 17:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

JdeJ, you seem to be saying two things: first, that you've seen a report suggesting that, in some villages in England—mainly in Shropshire—more than 50% of people speak Welsh. I find this really interesting, and would love to see the report! However, you also say "I think it is likely that the language may no longer be the majority language anywhere in England". So how old is the report you saw? And if it's recent, what makes you think things have changed? Then you say that there are "certainly a number of villages [roughly how many?] in England where the percentage of Welsh-speakers remains much higher than the average percentage of Welsh speakers in Wales." So that means well over 20% (I suppose at least 30%?). Do you have evidence you can cite for this? In any case, I don't think, as the anonymous user suggests, that we need to find an English village where "more people speak Welsh day to day than English". If we can find a village in England where more than 20% of the people can speak Welsh, even if as a second language, then I think that's interesting enough! garik (talk) 18:38, 11 January 2010(UTC)

Canada, the US, Australia

For some reason, these countries were listed in the infobox. While it is true that we can find speakers of almost any language in almost any country, that is not a reason to list every country in the world in the infobox for every language. The numbers listed for Canada, the US and Australia in the infobox here were below the numbers for French speakers, Swedish speakers, Spanish speakers etc. in the same countries.Jeppiz (talk) 23:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Just had a quick check to make sure I'm not saying too much, but Australia is absent from the infoboxes for French, Swedish and Spanish, the US absent from the infoboxes for both Swedish and French (despite more than 100.000 native French speakers and 1.6 million total French speakers in the US compared with less than 3.000 for Welsh).Jeppiz (talk) 23:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Without wanting to sound blunt - what's your point? Xxglennxx (talk) 09:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

His point is that there are so few speakers of Welsh in Canada, the US, and Australia that it is not worth mentioning those countries as places where Welsh is spoken in the infobox, and I agree. And it's not just absolute numbers - the absolute number of Welsh speakers in Argentina is probably pretty tiny too - but that there is no coherent community of Welsh speakers in those countries. +Angr 09:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Angr, that was precisely my point :-) Jeppiz (talk) 18:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

It surely is of use - and interest - to note where Welsh-speakers are around the world, especially where these are using the language in, e.g., their families or cultural pursuits. Numbers of Welsh-speakers are going to be "pretty tiny" wherever they're found (even in Wales), but that should be no justification for ignoring them. People are raising their children to speak Welsh in, e.g. the USA, Australia, and this is of obvious socio-linguistic interest, as it would be for any lesser-used language. Gwybedyn (talk) 11:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Gwybedyn, no one is ignoring the fact that there are people who might speak a traditional Welsh Language outside of Wales and Patagonia in day-to-day parlance. It is simply not notable enough to receive a mention here. If there were, say, a whole town of Welsh speakers in USA then this would be of note. Even if there were a region where material is published in Welsh as a second or third language for that region. Pbhj (talk) 16:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

But there have been very large communities. In Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, and Kansas. Still spoken in some churches in these communities. Add the USA back to the list. There were many Welsh speakers in Maritime Canada as well, and still some today. Add Canada back as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.115.32 (talk) 19:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

It may well be noteworthy. Do any reliable sources mention it? If so, please either add text to the article with the reference(s), or if you aren't sure how, note here what you think should be included, together with a link to the source(s) and someone will take a look. Daicaregos (talk) 19:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. Added sources from the US and Canadian governments. However, it seems that the majority of Welsh speakers in Canada are no longer in the Maritimes.

There used to be significant Welsh community in Ipswich, Queensland Australia. I'm sure there would have been Welsh communities around other mining areas of Australia as well. They have probably become less pronounced though in recent years. Unfortunately I'm having a difficult time finding reputable sources of such information. Spuzzdawg (talk) 10:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. There is some more information about the Welsh in that area here, and we have this article - but really there needs to be a lot more work done on developing and expanding that article. I'll give it some thought - my great-uncle, whose parents were Welsh-speaking, emigrated to Queensland. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Map

Missing the dark green legend for (I assume) 37.5 to 50 % speakers. Tiddy (talk) 05:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that too, and asked about it some years ago. In fact, there are no counties in Wales where the number of Welsh speakers is in that range. Every county has either less than 37.5% or more than 50% Welsh speakers. +Angr 07:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead image.

It appears to have six different colours but only five different percentages?

Ceredigion appears to be incorrectly coloured. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I've replaced it with a better image where the two counties in question have the same color. +Angr 14:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Excellent... --Frank Fontaine (talk) 18:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Still looks like six different shades but only five different percentage ranges to me! 80.176.88.21 (talk) 11:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Anon is right. Ceredigion is miscolo(u)red. It has a colo(u)r assigned to no percentage range. (signed without being logged in - signing the comment again) Dylansmrjones (talk) 13:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep. File:Siaradwyr y Gymraeg ym Mhrif Ardaloedd Cymru2a.svg has a color problem that File:Siaradwyr y Gymraeg ym Mhrif Ardaloedd Cymru.png doesn't have. Until someone corrects the SVG, we should continue to use the PNG. +Angr 09:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm no good at rendering these maps, but I find this 'county' level map way too crude. Is there a way of requesting new maps with ward levels, like this, or better still like the one on this PDF (bottom left hand side)?--Rhyswynne (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Percentage question

It says this - The most recent census figures (2001) presented in "Main Statistics about Welsh"[5] by the Welsh Language Board, indicate 582,400 (20.8% of the population of Wales in households or communal establishments) were able to speak Welsh and 457,946 (16.3%) can speak, read and write it. These 2001 figures mark a substantial - 9% - decline when compared with the figures of 508,100 (18.7%) for 1991. Where has the -9% substantial decline nonsense come from?

457,946 is over 9% (in fact, almost 10%) less than 508,100. +Angr 19:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Problem with comparison is that the same questions were not asked in 1991 and 2001. I'm not 100% of my facts here, but in 1991 I don't thing the various 'skills' (speak, read, write) were broken down into seperate questions, there was just one global one.--Rhyswynne (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes so where does this mark a substantial -9% decline the numbers speaking Welsh are increasing and the artiacle contradicts itself as when you go further down it says that there are more speaking Welsh than in 1991 and that is certainly the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamjones416 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Um, the official UK census body reports a 9% decline in Welsh as the language of the home and trumps your assertion. Sorry. There are however more potential speakers of the language as it is mandated in schools. Pbhj (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Are there any figures on how many speak Welsh, but not English? I'm just interested. 131.111.220.6 (talk) 12:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The census does not ask for speakers of "Welsh only". It is assumed that (with the exception of very young children and maybe a handful elderly people in remote areas) everybody speaks English.Unoffensive text or character (talk) 09:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately I doubt you'll find any good stats on this. If you're just curious, as you say, and can put up with OR and anecdote for want of anything better, my own experience tells me that most children from all-Welsh-speaking families won't know much English before starting school. The elderly people in remote areas are dying off though. There are very few adults in Wales now who could be called non-English speakers, if any. On the other hand, you'll find a large number of Welsh speakers of all ages for whom English remains very much a second language, and not one they feel entirely confident in. A lot of Welsh speakers will not speak English often, and then only in fairly restricted contexts. Accent is not necessarily a good indicator of this. I knew a young guy from North Wales, who'd studied at Manchester, and who a lot of people took for English, but he admitted he still didn't feel like a native in the language. garik (talk) 14:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I met a native Welsh-speaking academic at the University of Dublin who admitted to feeling more comfortable speaking Irish than English. +Angr 15:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I see, more first language speakers than I realised then. 131.111.220.6 (talk) 09:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Dialects

To quote from the article on Welsh phonology: "The vowels /ɨ̞/ and /ɨː/ occur only in Northern dialects; in Southern dialects they are replaced by /ɪ/ and /iː/ respectively." Isn't the fact that the high central vowels have completely disappeared in the southern dialects a rather major difference, worthy of mention? Jakob37 (talk) 04:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Notes section

A number of the references have no date -- can this be fixed? Jakob37 (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of up-to-date information in introduction

A new report has been published in 2010 by the Welsh Language Board, here, which gives some more up-to-date information on use of the language. My assessment of the figures is that the numbers and proportion "able to speak Welsh" have risen since the early 1990s, but the numbers speaking fluently, particularly of older people, have fallen, as have the numbers of entirely Welsh-speaking households. At the same time, bilingual classes, Welsh language theatre performances and so forth seem to have increased. It appears very appropriate that this new information is included in the article - I've added it as an external link - but the overall picture that it gives is complex, as different indicators suggest different pictures, and therefore difficult to summarise. But, in my view, it leaves question marks about whether the simple statement "Welsh is therefore a growing language within Wales" is justified by the evidence. I will make no changes to the article before there is some further discussion and (hopefully) consensus here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Argentina

There are a lot of Welsh speakers in Argentina, can this be added to the infobox? (i dont know thenumbers)(Lihaas (talk) 00:46, 1 October 2010 (UTC)).

It is there in the infobox already: speakers=750,000+: Wales: 611,000, England: 150,000, Chubut Province, Argentina: 5,000. Daicaregos (talk) 07:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Persecution

Forcible persecution of the Welsh language before the 19th century is not mentioned in the article. Possibly this silence is intended to avoid putting Henry, Elizabeth and the like in a bad light. Hitler also persecuted non-Teutonic languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.151.149 (talk) 09:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Readers are directed to the main article on the history of the language at the beginning of the History section by this:

Main article: History of the Welsh language

where the subject is covered in more depth. You are welcome to make comments to/help improve that article too. Daicaregos (talk) 09:39, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The article mentioned only has the vague phrase "The legal status of Welsh was inferior to that of English...".

This confirms my claim that deliberate vagueness is being used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 11:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

This article concerns the Welsh language as it is now. It has only a very brief summary of the language's history, with a link to the main article, History of the Welsh language. It is at that article that any comments or improvements concerning the history of the language should be made. Daicaregos (talk) 13:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Informal Vote: Official Status of Welsh

Please see Talk:United_Kingdom#Informal_Vote:_Official_Status_of_Welsh where an informal vote is taking place on displaying the Welsh translation of "United Kingdom" at the top of the United Kingdom infobox. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 17:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

"Anglo-Latin"

From the article: Welsh vocabulary draws mainly from original Brythonic words (wy "egg", carreg "stone"), with some loans from Latin (ffenestr "window" < Latin fenestra, gwin "wine" < Latin vinum), and "Anglo-Latin" fideo ("video").

Sorry, as much as I respect the right of those who speak the Welsh language to defend it, and to fight off the Anglophone hordes (like myself - though I'm a typical British mongrel, so far I've not discovered any Welsh ancestry), I think we have a rather pointy euphemism here: "Anglo-Latin". Is anyone actually going to claim that this word has managed to sneak into the Valleys by way of Rome and Schleswig-Holstein without passing through England? Not wishing to impose, I've not made the edit myself, but I'd suggest it might be a little more honest if it were done. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

There is this short list of Welsh words of English origin at Wiktionary, and at least one book on the subject. I'll amend the text. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually, I think the new examples are better, in that they show how a 'loan word' will change as it is adopted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Removal of "continuing struggles"

I removed the follow as I don't think it belongs in the article - or at least where it was put. The text "often faced with anti-Welsh sentiments within the Welsh-speaking heartlands" I think is POV. The piece is written free-style and again has POV.

Continuing struggles

Despite the recently granted official status of the Welsh language, Welsh-speakers are often faced with anti-Welsh sentiments within the Welsh-speaking heartlands. In April 2011, for example, the English owner of restaurant in Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Anglesey, prohibited her staff from speaking their native Welsh language during working hours, insisting that they should only speak English when at work.. [redacted the next bit per WP:BLP] Also in 2011, the broadcasting company Town and Country Broadcasting, owners of Cardiganshire-based local radio station Radio Ceredigion, proposed that provision of Welsh-language songs on their radio station should be cut to 10% from 50%. A row ensued with many local residents voicing concerns regarding Town and Country Broadcasting's track record of systematic anglicisation of other local radio stations within Wales, including Radio Sir Gâr and Scarlet FM. Ultimately, the proposal was rejected following a consultation conducted by the telecommunications regulatory authority Ofcom.

Agree this section is inappropriate; particularly as it claims as fact some criminal behaviour on the part of an identifiable person when we are still at police investigation stage not conviction, so I have redacted it here. We have original research, "recentism" and a claim about the LlanfairPG hotel that is not supported in full by the source (the source does not say that the owner was involved, referring instead to the general manager, who is not described by the article as English, and the apparent ban was not absolute as the article makes clear). Bencherlite^Talk 14:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Spoken version

I removed some clicks and snaps (and other noise) in the spoken article and uploaded the new version. -- Andrew Krizhanovsky (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

Perhaps we should include the United Kingdom, as we've already got Argentina listed. It would be less confusing for readers, as England & Wales are not sovereign states, whereas Argentina is. GoodDay (talk) 17:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a big problem with that, especially given that we elaborate below. garik (talk) 17:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The edit summary making removing the infobox fact that Welsh is spoken in Wales says: "This would be more understandible to readers. As Argentina is a sovereign state, unlike Wales & England" You think readers wouldn't understand that the Welsh language is spoken in Wales … because it and England are not sovereign states? What evidence do you have to support your theory? The fact is that Welsh is spoken in Wales. It is also, to a far lesser extent, spoken in England. It is not spoken in Scotland or Northern Ireland. Showing Welsh as being spoken in the UK would mislead readers, rather than be helpful to them. If you have a problem with how to show the way Welsh is spoken in Argentina, please address that, rather than changing that Welsh is spoken in Wales. Daicaregos (talk) 08:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Daicaregos. UK could imply that Welsh is also spoken on the Shankill Road and the Gorbals which is not the case. Welsh is spoken in Wales, however, would not confuse readers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Good point by Jeanne. Also GoodDay, aren't you meant to be talking to your mentors about edits in this domain which you know will be opposed? This one was fairly harmless so no issue --Snowded ^TALK 09:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm convinced by Dai and Jeanne's points. garik (talk) 15:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why or when the terms British & United Kingdom became taboo on these articles. But, I'm already sensing hostility towards me & so I'm not going to bother fighting against 'the wall'. GoodDay (talk) 15:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's an issue of those terms being taboo. They are just too imprecise in this context. Sure you can narrow the scope of "UK" periphrastically but why bother when terms like Wales already exist with nearly perfect precision built-in? Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 15:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)