Talk:White Rose

• Talk:White Rose/Archive1

Details added to account of July 1942-Feb 1943 activities

Additional details were obtained from

• Weiße_Rose
• monograph by Dr. Bernd Kleinhans
• the leaflets
• The White Rose (Die Weiße Rose) (more information)

DwightKingsbury 08:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Influence during the war?

Is anything known about how the White Rose was generally received by Germans during the war? Ben moss 23:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Are the newly discovered Gestapo transcript copies in public domain? How does the new (2005) film compare to the transcripts? Victorianezine (talk) 16:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)victorianezine

Ludwig-Maximilians-University

There is a small group of students at the LMU which want to rename the university to Geschwister-Scholl-University. The renaming is not supported by most of the university.Stone 13:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Why the White Rose?

Does anyone know why the group chose to call themselves the White Rose? ThePeg 00:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

On page 58 of Sophie Scholl and the White Rose by Dumbach and Newborn it is stated that the choice of name remains ambiguous. To quote the book, it "was obviously intended to represent purity and innocence in the face of evil: it is a poetic or artistic symbol rather than a political one... Under Gestapo interrogation, Hans would say the name came fro a Spanish novel he had read..." It goes on to state that there was actually a novel written by the German B. Traven about exploitation in Mexico in 1931 and that there is a chance that Hans and Alex had read it. Hope this helps. David Le Sage, Australia. 202.138.16.82 01:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I've put this information into the article itself, too, now. Someone will probably want to rectify my citation so that it conforms to guidelines. Cheers, David Le Sage, Australia. 202.138.16.82 02:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that a likely source of the group's name is the poem by Cuban philosopher, lawyer, poet, and freedom fighter José Martí titled "Cultivo una Rosa Blanca" (I Grow a White Rose"). The theme of the poem can be understood as suggesting that one love both one's friends and enemies (or, depending on the meaning ascribed to the white rose, at least extend the same courtesy and respect). Martí railed against Spanish tyranny and slavery; he promoted freedom, equality and republican government.

After almost two decades of advocating for Cuban and Puerto Rican independence through his writings (for which he was jailed and exiled repeatedly), Martí co-founded the Cuban Revolutionary Party and helped to formulate war plans. He died a couple of years later, at age 42, during a skirmish in the colony's war for independence from Spain (aka the Spanish-American war) and his writings, most originally in Spanish, were widely disseminated and translated during the first half of the 20th century.

José Martí (includes the text of the poem and an English translation)

Marti: Thoughts

ileanadu 22 February 2007

The 'Spanish novel' is actually a misunderstanding. Hans Scholl said during his interrogation he had taken the name from the poet Clemens Brentano, who had written a series of what he called Spanish romances - one of which was titled Rosablancke (rosa blanca or white rose). The Gestapo officers - not very educated, it seems - mistook this as being about a novel written by a Spanish author. There is another theory (cruelly hampered, though, by lack of evidence) that the name of the group might be inspired by French aristocrats in exile, who supposedly bore a white rose in their coat of arms. --91.34.15.92 20:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment (09/04/2007): the second paragraph of this section is overly long and largely speculative. If it is to remain, then it should be significantly revised in order to sound less like a conspiracy theory and more like a reasonable argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.141.106 (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of the name "The White Rose" is taken from Church history as well. The rose was the medieval symbol of the Roman Catholic Church (note how many medieval paintings have the Virgin Mary holding a rose, signifying her care over the Church). The color white is the color of purity. Thus the White Rose was the "pure" church -- as opposed to those Christians who cowered in the face of adversity. The Scholls especially tried very hard, in their own youthful ways, to try to help Jews and others in concentration camps, even if only to sneak a bar of chocolate to workers on the road, etc. Danwaggoner (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

In an interview I had with Ruth Hanna Sachs, a translator and White Rose fanatic, she told me the following about the name of the resistance:

Excerpt from White Rose History, Volume I:
    Now the letter she received from Fritz Rook, that was a letter worth saving. He thanked her profusely for the basket of cherries. She had been absolutely correct in trusting her instincts when she agreed to be the young soldier’s pen pal. His words stirred her, lit a fire inside her. She kept going back to it, fingering the free flowing words on cheap paper. This was a letter she saved, putting it in a place where she could access it quickly.
    Yesterday, late in the evening, I spied a white rose. It is said that white flowers are for the dead – but death, love, and youth are all one and the same. (The dead, insofar as they really live inside of us, live transformed as the image of shining youth!) Therefore it is precisely the white rose with its fragrance and its fragile purity that is the symbol of eternal youth. I thought of that this very moment. I love to give people white flowers (and all Christians make the sign of the cross when they see one). I am sending a white rose petal to you with a kiss. F.
    (Chapter 26)

    About the same time that Hans Scholl saw Heinz Brenner’s secret post, Alex Schmorell read words that fascinated him. For some reason that even she cannot now recall, Lilo Ramdohr showed Alex the beautiful letter from Fritz Rook, along with the postcard of a white rose he had written her on October 14. The imagery captivated Alex and he asked Lilo for permission to make a copy of Fritz Rook’s letter. He wanted to show it to his friend Hans Scholl.
    Lilo noted after the war that it was a shame Fritz Rook never knew what an impact his words had had on her friends. Alex showed that letter to Hans, and it made the round of their friends. To this day, she believes – and I concur – that Fritz Rook’s poignant symbolism was the reason they ultimately chose the white rose name for the leaflets they would eventually write. The “explanations” they gave the Gestapo in 1943 would have merely been a cover to protect both Lilo and Fritz.
    That November conversation between Alex and Lilo had consequences far beyond the eventual name of the Leaflets of the White Rose. Lilo read aloud from letters she had received from Muhmi Harnack, and from Mildred. This was the first time she realized how strong was his connection to Russia.
    (Chapter 28)

Excerpt from White Rose History, Volume II:
    But before they could type the stencil or pick an address from the phone book, they instinctively knew that their cause needed a “brand,” an image that would set their leaflets apart from the written propaganda and counter-propaganda of 1940s Munich. It is unknown whether Hans or Alex recalled the letter from Fritz Rook to Lilo Berndl that Alex had copied out a few months prior. It is, however, clear that while they were working in Alex’s room, someone remembered it and latched onto its symbolism:
    Yesterday, late in the evening, I spied a white rose. It is said that white flowers are for the dead – but death, love, and youth are all one and the same. (The dead, insofar as they really live inside of us, live transformed as the image of shining youth!) Therefore it is precisely the white rose with its fragrance and its fragile purity that is the symbol of eternal youth. I thought of that this very moment. I love to give people white flowers (and all Christians make the sign of the cross when they see one). I am sending a white rose petal to you with a kiss. F.
    Fritz Rook’s exposition on the white rose icon, long a “death flower” in Germanic literature, would have appealed to the students (and especially Alex) on many levels. Death, love, and youth; fragrance; fragile purity – these notions resounded in their personal correspondence as well as in their public declarations of rightness and righteousness. It was the perfect emblem for what they were undertaking.
    Despite their choice of ‘logo’, the students never considered themselves the White Rose. Even when they later organized into a more coherent movement of sorts, they called themselves the German Resistance Movement, not the White Rose. It is only recent history (since the late 1960s) that labeled the students and their mentors “the White Rose” and considered icon and identity one and the same.
    (Chapter 5)

FrauleinFish (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

simple english..

Can someone please make "white rose" and "german resistance" in simple english, so people that just know rough english will understand it? thanks, --Steve 02:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written in English, not Pidgin English. However there are many articles in Wikipedia that cannot be readily understood by native English speakers, because they are badly written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 20:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The TOC

Is there a reason the TOC on this article is not the standard Wikipedia one? If it's just personal preference, I think it should be changed to the normal one. Xiner (talk, email) 17:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I boldly removed the TOCright tag. Hope it's okay. Xiner (talk, email) 22:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Intro

The intro is too long and needs to be shortened. Xiner (talk, email) 22:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Large sections of the introduction are rather nonsensical! 82.113.121.12 (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Obvious errors

Please note that the first sentence under "The group" reads: "The White Rose consisted of five students — Sophie Scholl, her brother Hans Scholl, Alex Schmorell, Willi Graf, and Christoph Probst, all in their early twenties — and a professor of philosophy, Kurt Huber." at this moment. However, the article Hans Conrad Leipelt refers to Leipelt as a member of The White Rose as well. Furthermore it is known that there were more members than "just" five. The German movie Sophie Scholl – The Final Days even lists more than a dozen members:

• Death penalty:
  • Hans Scholl
  • Sophie Scholl
  • Christoph Probst
  • Alexander Schmorell
  • Willi Graf
  • Hans Leipelt
  • Kurt Huber
• Prison:
  • Helmut Bauer
  • Heinrich Bollinger
  • Willi Bollinger
  • Eugen Grimminger
  • Heinrich Guter
  • Hans Hirzel
  • Susanne Hirzel
  • Marie-Luise Jahn
  • Traute Lafrenz
  • Franz Müller
  • Gisela Schertling
  • Katharina Schüddekopf

--141.43.39.53 13:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

publicist's text included in article?

does anyone else feel the "Legacy" section feels like it was written by a publicist? it spends a lot of time dwelling on the book, and it reads like a press release to me. perhaps this book is being over-emphasized in the article? just looking for other opinions here. ADM 17:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There being no defense of the current text since your post, I've gone ahead and edited the reference to Sophie Scholl: The Final Days down to a appropriate level for a neutral reference in an article. Don (talk) 17:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Last words of Sophie Scholl?

The article on her reads in part, "Her last words were "Die Sonne scheint noch," meaning "The sun still shines" while this reads 'Last words of Sophie Scholl: "…your heads will fall as well". There is, however, some dispute over whether Sophie or Hans actually said this; other sources claim that Sophie's final words were "God, you are my refuge into eternity."' Can anyone determine which is correct? Thanks --Fitzhugh 06:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

How they died

The introduction implies that they were sent to concentration camps and/or starved to death. This is not true. Hans, Sophie and Christoph were executed by guillotine. Karlotta (talk) 03:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

His name is my name, too?

The section on their capture states that the dropping of leaflets was "observed by the custodian John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt." Is this a joke, or a real German name? Moarbeer (talk) 03:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Quotes

The Iraq war tie in the quote section has nothing to do with White Rose. Maybe as a reference in the a "References in popular culture" but it most certainly isn't a quote of the white Rose. Smells of unrelated political bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.38.144 (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Despite Sturunner (talk · contribs)'s assertion, the quoted article does not contain a mention of "White Rose" or the Scholl siblings. That section was originally introduced in this edit in December 2006 by Mike.lifeguard (talk · contribs). I'm going to remove it. Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The same quote from the White Rose leaflet appears twice, in two different English translations. Whoever is managing this site should probably decide which one to keep, and perhaps insert another quote in place of the one that is dropped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.84.212.57 (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

An insane person is claiming that they are not the same, or even from the same leaflet, despite the text below both clearly saying "From the first leaflet." I'm trying to take out the redundancy, but crazyperson keeps reverting, possibly due to being crazy?!? I cannot even say. Echeneida (talk) 03:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh god, I just realized it might not be psychotic blindness on Smartse's part, but confusion. Smartse, look at the first quotebar in the article, the one at the opening of the first section of the article, the "Members" section. This is the one which is identical to the one I keep deleting, which, like the latter, says "From the first pamphlet". Do you see? Echeneida (talk) 03:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Notes Section - Citations

In the Article, Notes Section, three citations, [1], [3] and [8], lead to a web site www.jlrweb.com which has no information on the subject. There is a sub-heading "Hans and Sophie Scholl" on the web site, but it leads to a dead end. This looks to me like a purely commercial site, and should not be included in these citations.

Signed: James Toner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.175.51 (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I found the same thing. I'm going to disable those links. (Although I would like to find out what happened to that domain/website.) Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Merge

IMO information from this article should be linked to, not duplicated in, Die weiße Rose. --Kleinzach 00:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this merge discussion might be in the wrong place. This is the article about the group of Munich students "Weiße Rose". The article about the Zimmermann opera Die Weiße Rose lifted a paragraph from this article — that's where the duplication lies and that paragraph and all images should be removed from the opera article. This article mentions the opera, as it should, but is otherwise not affected by the opera article and there is no need for a discussion to merge here. Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In the chapter "Capture and Trial", 5th para, reference is made to "female wiles". What exactly does this refer to ? and is it not a rather offensive phrase, or am I being too sensitive? Basissuit (talk) 13:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Add new PDFs of leaflets?

Due to their scan quality, I had trouble reading the PDFs of the original leaflets in the "Further reading" section. The text only versions would be fine, however they use standardised spelling (e.g. "daß" instead of "dass", typos are corrected, etc.), different formatting, and don't give the 'flavour' of the originals. As such, I've made up some PDF transcriptions of the originals. I've tried to make them as close to the scanned versions as possible, including reproducing their formatting and spelling. Although they don't provide new information, I believe they would be useful and interesting to include. They give the reader a legible version of the original leaflets while retaining most of their feel.

I would be grateful if anyone could help me with the following:

1. Would the new PDFs help to improve the current page (i.e. are they wanted)?

2. Do the PDFs have to exist on an external site first, or can they be uploaded directly to Wikipedia (and if so, how)?

3. Might there somehow be copyright issues with adding them?

4. If any of these question would be better asked elsewhere, please point me in the right direction :-)

Cesses (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Removing confusing text

Removing this text added to the lead by 84.191.110.223 on 26 May 2009 with the edit summary "Weiße Rose and Royal Airforce", as it is confusing and possibly inappropriate.

"R Freisler was stopped effectivly by an Allied Bombardement at 3 Feb 1945 in Berlin-Tiergarten in further criminalizing, humiliating, killing f.i. Hitler/nazi- and Amnesty opponent Mr v. Schlabrendorff ("They all are guilty and must be persecuted within and towards the Rule of Law.") and was stopped successful too in targeting, humiliating, terrorising and breaking family, partners in this law-evaluation f.i. the Supreme Commanders of the Lawenforcemnet at Buckingham Palace. All who shared and share this values. Before the deadly Allied Air Raid the censored, notified leaflets of the "Weiße Rose" have been dropped by the Royal Airforce, Mr von Moltke had brought them over Scandinavia to the helpers in the United Kingdom, but the (not opposition/justice respecting, helping) people prooved to be inable to free themselves from Hitler and injustice at that time, after that destruction, aggression, crime and "lawhumiliation" (Copyright von Moltke, 1943 - no trial till 2009, extrem)."

Please revise before re-adding. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Film name?

Does anyone know the name of the fictional story about the White Rose? Not a documentary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.33.155 (talk) 03:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

If you mean "film adaptation" there was a German movie by the name of "Die Weisse Rose" that came out in the early 80s. I believe it was based on the book of the same name written by the Scholls' older sister, Inge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danwaggoner (talk • contribs) 19:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

"Die Weisse Rose" (The White Rose) by Inge Scholl

I find it odd that the author of the article nowhere cites the Scholls' siter, Inge as a source. She wrote a very insightful book (1970) about her siblings in which the family's life and religious background is given in detail. I also find it odd the the faith of the students is so downplayed, when many of them were devout Christians. Danwaggoner (talk) 20:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Removed "Three Things about Islam" from External Links

Someone placed a link to an article "Three Things about Islam" (http://newstime.co.nz/three-things-about-islam.html )that may have been written by a group called "The White Roses". That group appears to have no connection with the subject of this Wikipedia entry, and the linked article is unrelated. I removed the link. Jrdeardorff (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC) jrdeardorff

Hans Werner Henze's 'In Memoriam: Die Weisse Rose'

Could someone with more Wiki-skills than me kindly add that this eight-minute work was composed in 1964-65? http://www.analogartsensemble.net/2007/12/hans-werner-henze-in-memoriam-die.html Bhasi23 (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

POV

It is easy for articles on Nazi Germany to be influenced by prejudice. So we must be very conscious not to include POV references. The statement that "Gisela Schertling — who had betrayed most of the friends, even fringe members like Gerhard Feuerle— redeemed herself" is clearly one. This should be changed to a more neutral explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)