Talk:Wine

Wine to FA by end of the year?

This is one of the more interesting topics in Wikipedia and it should have an article worthy of FA status. I would like to see a collaboration effort to try and get this article to FA by the end of the year. Any one interested in giving it a go? Agne 07:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I think not. There are still enormous archeological discoveries to be made in Armenia that are killing the wild Georgian speculations. We don't need a Joseph Stalin like propaganda to be arbitrated before the discoveries in Armenia can be implemented. There are still glaring inconsistencies with ancient maps and etc....People still have serious doubts with regards to the Georgian claims especially in light of the discoveries being made in Ancient Armenia. Those who control the past control the future. ["1984"]. I would like to see the world Churches get involved with this topic since Jesus Christ himself said this about wine: "This is my blood....."Monte Melkonian (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Some thoughts for improvement

• Content Forks - I think this should be priority #1. The article is quite cumbersome in its current capacity due to the breadth of its subject matter. I think we should treat the wine article like a country article and make productive use of splinter articles and content forks. (FA Examples Canada, India, and Australia). To that extent I think we need to work on some splinter articles based on our current section headings like History of Wine, Wine Production (which should go more into wine making techniques), Classification of Wine (Condense some of the material in the Wine article but keep the material intact in the splinter), Uses of Wine or maybe even more detail in uses and Religious views of Wine and maybe Medical uses of Wine.
• Better in-line citations.
• Get rid of some of the list (which ties into better use of content forks as noted above) and get some pretty tables for some of the data.

Those three are the most glaring to me. Any other thoughts? Agne 08:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I cut and pasted the current history section in this article into the splinter article History of Wine as a first step. Obviously this is just a starting point and some work needs to be done so that each article has a life of its own. From here we need volunteers who are willing to A.) Continue to work on writing and developing the History of Wine article, with particular notice being paid to good, solid referencing. B.) Consolidate and summarize the historical information from the splinter article into 1-2 paragraphs for inclusion into the main wine article with a link to the splinter article. Again we need to focus on good, solid referencing. Agne 20:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This fork was very useful. Still the history section is too long. Why not shorten it? (by half?) Winetype (talk) 20:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is their a contradiction on where wine originated? There is now archeological proof (oldest wine making operation discovered in Armenia) that wine originated in Armenia. Why is Georgia mentioned as the only place where wine originated when there have been no discovered operations other than in Armenia? These contradictions are confusing to the readers. Moreover, why isn't the Armenian word "Gini" (pronounced Keenee) in the Indo-European languages mentioned? Whys isn't the method/technology and culture (namely, language) of production of wine that was passed to other tribes by Armenians mentioned in the wine making process? Moreover, historically and culturally, why are semetic tribes mentioned in the language section when these tribes were nomadic and had no vineyards to tend to or pass on the technology? Monte Melkonian (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Why include wild speculations without archeological proof that wine originated in Georgia? Isn't it true that the Georgian language is neither Indo-European or semetic? Then if so, why confuse the readers on how the technology/culture was passed to other tribes through language? These are just some thoughts that I find disturbing. Monte Melkonian (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Melkonian, because it is sourced and the publisher is certainly more respected than some shady Armenian sources which have been cited by the BBC and others. How on earth can 6000BC Armenian wine-making sites be older than 8,000BC ones in Georgia? True, the title does claim that it is the world's oldest but the numbers are provided and the rest is simply a matter of math.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 23:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC) Please follow the guidelines of respect on this forum with Wikpedia. Archeological evidence by UCLA scientists is hardly shady. They have no atelier motives. However, proclaiming Georgian origination by Georgian paid scholars with wild speculations is not only self serving, but, indeed harms the neutrality of Wikpedia guidelines. There are no wine making operations discovered in what is the so-called "Modern" Georgia. Implying that Georgians invented wine just because they found some residue on wine jars in far off locations is indeed jarring. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

1.I find it puzzling that you accuse me of not following the guidelines of respect even as you accuse a legitimate University of Pennsylvania scholar of being "Georgian paid" without providing a shred of evidence. If you are against "wild speculations," as you said, I think avoiding such accusations would be a good start.

2. I do not see any claims that Georgia invented wine, they are simply saying that the earliest evidence discovered points to that. If they find something dated earlier elsewhere, they will most likely attribute the origins of wine to that place. I'm afraid this is as specific as archaeology can get when dealing with millenia of history. For this reason, I suggest that you vent your nationalistic feelings elsewhere. --ComtesseDeMingrélie 19:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC) Please don't engage in silly accusations. As I recall, you began the conversation by accusing the scientific and archeological finds with a wine making operation by the "BBC" and "UCLA" as "Shady." That violates the neutrality requirements for these posts. Thus, I see a lot of misinformation and obfuscation from reality. Nobody is going to believe you. Not even the Devil himself Joseph Stalin. Monte Melkonian (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

When Jesus Christ said "This is my blood...", was he talking about Joseph Stalin's Georgia? Or, was he talking about the First country to adopt Christianity like Armenia? Didn't Joseph Stalin spit out the wine in Church in exchange for power as the leader of the Communist Party? These are some the questions that have religious significance with regards to wine. I hope you have some succinct answers without engaging in bating. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:23, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

White/Rose images

One of these is clearly a recolouring of the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.79.253 (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Photoshopping can change water into wine... /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Health Effects

I find this part confusing: "Professor Valerie Beral from the University of Oxford and lead author of the The Million Women Study asserts that the positive health effects of red wine are "an absolute myth." Professor Roger Corder, author of The Red Wine Diet, counters that two small glasses of a very tannic, procyanadin rich wine would confer a benefit, although "most supermarket wines are low procyanadin and high alcohol."[69]" I don't understand why Beral thinks it is a myth, was this somehow indicated in the Million Women Study? I found an article [1] where she expresses concern for the link between alcohol and breast cancer. But this doesn't really mean that the positive health effects of red wine don't exist. So I think these quotes from the BBC article should be deleted, and possibly replaced with information about the breast cancer link. --Aronoel (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that whole passage you quoted comes from the cited source. It explains that Beral thinks it's a myth because "the Million Women study reported that just one drink a week increases your risk of breast, pharynx and liver cancer" (quoted from the article).

The passage should be clarified, or expanded using the information in the second source you found. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

India

Removed a rather tall claim about wine being made "for thousands of years" based on "some Vedic scripture" [2], as it is based on a website www.indiamarks.com, which does not appear to be reliable source, especially for a claim like this. Athenean (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Wine

The recent edits of this article show that in addition to Georgia, wine also originated from Armenia. The claim about the oldest winery being discovered in some cave in Armenia as of January 2011 needs to be checked for accuracy. The only sources that I've found so far point to some articles in Armenia trying to claim that the oldest winery discovered so far is from one of the regions of that country. A thorough check and review of the sources that are included on this page would be sufficient to determine whether such claims are accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.43.1.66 (talk) 06:43, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you. First off, I'm not sure the provided source can be used as a reliable source. Second, source claims winery from Armenia dates back to approximately 6000 years ago. How is that winery the oldest when a vintage in Georgia exist 8,000 years ago. [3] January 2011 edits need to be checked. We need reliable sources about this issue. –BruTe ^Talk 11:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you two should see [4] and [5], I'm shure CNN and BBC aren't Armenian.--Aram-van (talk) 04:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I see two possible sources for the confusion:

• The claims about Armenia were published before the Georgian discovery
• One claim is about the oldest winery discovered, while another concerns the oldest wine. Not the same thing.

I think both facts can be included with the proper explanation and context. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions and say that one is about "winery" and the other not. Just because the Independent article does not specifically mention a wine-making facility does not mean that those jars have been laying out in the fields or on a shelf in someones house.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 23:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Me personally, any sources from democrat countries and their scientists are more reliable than former communist aparachi such as Georgians and their beloved serial killer Joseph Stalin. The novels "1984" and "Animal Farm" by George Orwell were written just for Stalin himself. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Those who control the past control the future. Monte Melkonian (talk) 19:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Wine vs beer consumption - ambiguous and irrelevant?

User:BernhardtP recently made this edit to add a table showing wine versus beer consumption, ranked by ratio.

This is meaningless. The measurement is in units of liters of pure alcohol, which is fine when reporting just wine, but it's apples-to-oranges when comparing with non-wine. I mean, if the comparison was wine versus orange juice, or wine versus chicken broth, you couldn't use alcohol content, you'd have to use volume.

And that's the problem with this table. In terms of volume, assuming wine has 3 to 4 times the alcohol of beer, the table simply shows that the beer consumption in most countries equals or exceeds the wine consumption. So what? That isn't surprising.

Because it isn't a valid comparison, I am inclined to remove this table, but I want to see someone else comment first. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Comparisons by alcohol level might be useful for medical or social analysis. Binksternet (talk) 00:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Also: comparisons by cost, or by single unit of sale, or by single serving portion might be of interest for business segment analysis. Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the cited source purely has the context of alcohol consumption and its demographics, distribution, health effects, etc. This isn't an article about alcohol, it's about wine, so I'm still not sure how a digression into a comparison on the consumption of alcohol by country belongs here. I have a problem with that source in general for use in this article. It's all about alcohol, so everything there is expressed in units of alcohol. That has little relevance to the article topic, especially since the wine industry worldwide uses volume (bottles, barrels, liters) of actual wine, not volume of alcohol in the wine produced. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I like having the table. Wine and beer are very very commonly compared counterparts. In fact, many legal jurisdictions placed them together in an entirely different category from most alcohol (for licensing purposes and in statistics). It is useful, verifiable, and generally enlightening to have their consumption compared. Steven Walling 04:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Wow, the "consumption" tables are truly a liability. First of all, the country selection is arbitrary at best: The left-hand table seems to be drawing on the countries with the second- through eleventh-highest per-capita wine consumption, while leaving out the country with the highest per-capita consumption. The right hand table is maybe showing the countries with the highest wine/beer ratio?, but that's completely unsourced, is not an intended use of the WHO data and may not be statistically valid. Additionally, as mentioned by Amatulic, measuring by liters of ethyl alcohol is an unusual and misleading presentation of the data. In short, the selection and presentation of the data has rendered it into decontextualized, useless trivia. --Sneftel (talk) 12:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

It's true the table lacks Luxembourg, the highest per capita consumer, but of course that can be easily fixed. Otherwise, the table does not elucidate the health concerns of alcohol and it does not use prose to describe the situation. I think it should be moved to the article Long-term effects of alcohol. Comparing beer to wine consumption is commonly done but not usually by unit of ethanol. The beer v. wine table should be replaced by prose discussion of relative sales and production. Binksternet (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Good points all. I found a source for per-capita consumption of wine, measured by total volume rather than alcohol volume. (I don't want to spoil the surprise, but it turns out Luxembourg is number two.) --Sneftel (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

New World

Native grapes were abundant in parts of the now-United Sates, but as far as I know, no wine-making was ever done by Native Americans. An explanation of this phenomenon if possible would be of interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.127.174 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Potential references

• Forester, S.C. / Waterhouse, A.L. “Metabolites Are Key to Understanding Health Effects of Wine Polyphenolics”, Journal of Nutrition (2009),139(9):1824S-1831S.
• He, S. et al. “Red Wine Polyphenols for Cancer Prevention”, International Journal of Molecular Sciences (2008),9(5):842-853.
• Yoo, Y.J. et al. “Should Red Wine Be Considered a Functional Food?”, Comprehensive Reviews in Food Science and Food Safety (2010),9(5):530-551.

Centralized discussion on such links in Further reading: here --Ronz (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)