Talk:Disappearance of Natalee Holloway: Difference between revisions

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{{talkheader}}
{{ArticleHistory
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|action1date=02 May 2006
|action1link=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Natalee Holloway
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|action3=AFD
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|action6=GAN
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|action8=FAC
|action8date=03:35, 30 May 2008
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|topic=law
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|maindate=October 21, 2008
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{{WikiProjectBannerShell |blp=yes |1=
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{{WikiProject Caribbean|class=FA|Aruba=yes|nested=yes|listas=Holloway, Natalee}}[[Category:Netherlands Todays FA]]
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{{maintained|[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]], [[User:AuburnPilot|AuburnPilot]], [[User:Kww|Kww]]}}

==Thai sex ring...==
{{cite web |url=http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=6221163&page=1 |title=Suspect in Holloway Case Allegedly Caught Arranging for Sex Workers |accessdate=2008-11-11 |date=2008-11-10 |publisher=ABC News}}

It doesn't look like there's anything particularly relevant to this article, but Joran seems to be in the spotlight again. Might bring some increased traffic here, though. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 22:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I have been following this rather sordid offshoot of the story. This is not an article on Joran, we've agreed he doesn't pass notability (yet). This is too far removed from NH to cover. We covered the Patrick saga because it had to do with Natalee's vanishing (allegedly). This is irrelevant to that. I say this because we may get drive by editors in the next few weeks over this.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 23:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
:More of an argument to give him his own article than to add material to this one, but it doesn't look like we should do either to me.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 00:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

::According to [http://stats.grok.se/en/200811/Natalee_Holloway this tool], traffic to this article spiked yesterday. I guess we should watch out for unhelpful edits.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 04:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


This guy Joran is being hunted in Thailand currently for the murder. He admitted on camcera that he did it. I don't see how on earth you can say he doesn't 'pass notability' or that he shouldn't have his own article... <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:DegenFarang|DegenFarang]] ([[User talk:DegenFarang|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DegenFarang|contribs]]) 07:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Being hunted in Thailand for what murder?&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 11:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

==New evidence==
*{{Cite web |url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081118/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_aruba_missing_teen |title=Aruba police pursue new evidence in Holloway case |accessdate=2008-11-18 |date=2008-11-18 |publisher=AP}}

*{{Cite web |url=http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/grace.coldcase.holloway/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail |title=Tips renew hopes of solving Holloway case |accessdate=2008-11-18 |date=2008-11-18 |publisher=CNN}}

Supposedly a woman has come forward claiming Joran confessed to her quite some time ago. I figure this should be mentioned somewhere, since it's the only thing to happen in quite some time, but I'm not exactly sure where to stick it. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 00:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
:I'd give the story a couple more days to bake. I can't find any coverage in the local press. If you feel that you have to put it in now, a couple of sentences at the end of ''De Vries footage and "confession"'' is where it should go.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 00:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Kww. I would hold off for a bit, but we will have to say something. CNN is the best article I think.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 05:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

:Unless there is something tonight on Greta which creates a MAJOR splash, I don't think there is anything to add to the article, notwithstanding my prior comment. Mos's office has said "no new developments" basically. I think we continue to sit back and wait to see if Mos will prosecute or close the case.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 09:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

::Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to catch Greta's supposedly damning evidence she intends to reveal tonight, as I'm traveling for the Thanksgiving holiday, but I agree we should hold back for now. If something major happens, there's plenty of time to properly add it to the article. - [[User:AuburnPiIot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot's</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPiIot|<small><font color="#000080">sock</font></small>]] 02:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

:::I won't summarize here, but it is another story by Joran wildly inconsistent with each of the others he has told, he sold Natalee into white slavery. I've reverted an unsourced add of material relating to it, and propose to continue to do so. If there is third party reaction, especially something official from Mos, then I would suggest reassessing then, but for right now, I see no point in adding anything.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 06:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
::::As usual, I like to let things ripen a few days, but this should get added. One way or the other, the existence of yet another version of that night needs to be mentioned.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 17:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::I tend to agree. I simply suggested keeping it out until we have good reliable sources, and an accurate account of what was said.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 00:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
As events are running away with us, and I don't feel like having to revert good faith, but crude edits, I have put the info in. The sources really aren't there yet, I imagine we will wind up expanding to cover the allegation about Paulus and the cops, once we have better refs.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

== coupla things ==

The International Safe Travels Foundation [http://www.internationalsafetravelsfoundation.org/MS/MS10/index.php site] seems to be dead. I guess they weren't careful while traveling. I've made a slight rephrase of the info in the article so that it is unclear if the entity still exists, but we have a dead link to deal with. Thoughts?

Also, there's a red message uppage under the WikiProject Alabama banner, something about a default sort key being overridden.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

:I added an [[Internet Archive]] link for the dead ISTF reference, so that's taken care of. I'm not sure about the default sort key issue. As far as I can tell, the one given in the WikiProject banner matches the one given on the article's {{tl|DEFAULTSORT}}. - [[User:AuburnPiIot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot's</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPiIot|<small><font color="#000080">sock</font></small>]] 16:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

::Is there someplace we can get help with that?--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

== Slant ==
I realize there will be little change in this page and recent developments aren't likely to be included, but [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natalee_Holloway&diff=253966713&oldid=253955317 additions and edit summaries like this] continue the concern about the direction this article slants. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 12:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

:Sandy, you yourself passed this article for FA and that includes a requirement of NPOV. This article has changed little since then. The edit you complain of is the woman's own words, not dissimilar to other statements she has made, but it provides readers with the most current information. Since both Joran and Beth insist on opening their traps and making fools of themselves (though they are not alone in that department), we will continue to cover their notable statements. We will almost certainly cover Joran's white slavery statement once Greta gets done with her programs and there are sufficent RS. I saw one from Radio Netherlands this afternoon but don't want to use it as it contains factual errors and there will be other RSs. If you insist on cursing the darkness, such as it is, I will say to you this:

:Thank you for your suggestion{{{{#if:notsubsted||subst:}}#if:|&#32;regarding [[:{{{1}}}]]}}. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the '''{{lcfirst:{{int:edit}}}}''' link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to [[Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages|be bold in updating pages]]. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out [[Wikipedia:how to edit a page|''how to edit a page'']], or use the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|sandbox]] to try out your editing skills. [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|New contributors are always welcome]]. You don't even need to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]] (although there are [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|many reasons why you might want to]]).
:--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 00:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

== Reversion of Sturman's edits ==

I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natalee_Holloway&curid=4779630&diff=254756811&oldid=254754672 reverted] several good faith edits by Sturman, which sought to greatly expand the material on the On the Record interview and place it into its own section. I did so for several reasons. First, there has been little third party media coverage of the OtR interview, and beyond mentioning the interview, we can't give it as much play as the DeVries interview, which got extensive coverage. Second, much of the material added was speculative, and to the extent it was sourced, was sourced to viewer responses to a blog, which certainly does not qualify under WP:RS. Lastly, it was rather POV in that it set out to show that it was not Paulus's voice on the chips, which we have no actual way of knowing. There is also WP:SYNTH problems. If WP:RS choose to further cover the matter after the weekend, then I can see adding more. For now, not.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 11:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I improved the section by making it much shorter and by citing a newspaper source rather than a blog. If you think it is necessary I will give more newspaper sources. Leaving this part out is rather NPOV because this whole Van Susteren story is bad journalism, as they just did not check the story and tape out well enough. I think you should either take that whole section out, or if you do mention the show it has to be countered by the testimony of prosecutor Hans Mos and others that the tape (and thereby the whole story) is a fake.
[[User:Sturman|Sturman]] ([[User talk:Sturman|talk]]) 13:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

:I agree it is bad journalism, and apparently they sat on it for four months, leading me to believe they knew it wasn't true, since four months is probably rather a long time if you are being held in white slavery. However, until a RS says that kinda thing, we can't. I've taken your word for it that the Dutch says what it says, and no doubt Kww will let us know if it isn't the case. I've also shortened it considerably, for example Mos needs no introduction to the reader of this article by this point. Please let us know if there are further developments in the Dutch press that are not covered in the US, but I'd hate to see this section grow much more.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 14:33, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
::The translation isn't incorrect, but isn't necessarily the part I would have chosen. The Telegraaf says it's Joran faking a low voice, but Mos ties it down to the pronunciation of the "g" sound. I would go with the Mos quote, but I'm not sure the average reader would understand why that's important. A Dutch "g" is a strange gutteral sound, and varies from speaker to speaker. It is kind of a tell-tale for background and region. Most importantly, Mos is not quoted as saying it's Joran, just that it's not Paul. The Telegraaf does unequivocally state that it's Joran.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 14:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
:::I would avoid the whole g thing, but certainly if it is Mos talking, not the Telegraaf itself, then we should say so. Kww, as you've read the thing, you should probably make any necessary edit. We don't have to give reasons, the interested reader can get the article and at least use Google translate. Summary style and all that.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Then I'll leave it alone. Avoiding the whole g thing means avoiding Mos's quote and going with De Telegraaf's statement, which is what is currently in the article.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 13:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

== Archive, redux ==

AuburnPilot, when you get back, do you think you could archive? I'd suggest current threads 1-16. Of course, if there is opposition to archiving, we should talk about it, but all of those threads are dead now.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 14:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
:Will do. I'll have my hands on an actual computer sometime this afternoon, and will take a look at the archive situation. - [[User:AuburnPiIot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot's</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPiIot|<small><font color="#000080">sock</font></small>]] 17:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
::Done. I've archived all threads that lacked comments within the last month. Archive 4 is now 264kb, just over the typical 250kb, so the next bunch should start a new subpage. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 06:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:::My blackberry thanks you.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

== Ax the reward? ==

It strikes me that we should ax the reward section and perhaps insert a sentence into the chronology sections, perhaps in July 2005 which in a sentence or perhaps two, says what the reward is. The reward section is rather short and we should probably integrate it into the article.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 13:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
:Not a big issue with me either way.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 14:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

==FAQ==
I was thinking about putting together a {{tl|FAQ}} to place at the top of the page. Traffic has been slower recently, but having the usual questions already answered could be beneficial for people not familiar with Wikipedia practices (and those who are, but have a different opinion). In my mind, the FAQ would cover topics like:
*"Why do you mention that Joran is an honor student? He's scum!"
:*Wikipedia's policies require that articles are written from a [[WP:NPOV|neutral perspective]]. This doesn't mean... (this is boilerplate/actual wording will differ)
*Why isn't this article titled [[The Natalee Holloway Story]]/[[Disappearance of Natalee Holloway]]/[[It was Her Fault]]/[[He did it]]/etc
:*Explain reasoning for current title, link to previous discussions
*Natalee has an article. Shouldn't Joran, Deepak, and Satish?
:*Explain why other articles redirect here, link to previous discussions
*Why are you attacking Natalee and her mother? Their behavior isn't relevant. / Why doesn't this article cover all the horrible things the students did?
:Again, explain.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is it even worth doing? - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 23:39, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

::Dunno. If you want to do it, I'll help, but what we seem to get are people intent on imposing their POV. My question would be, is it worth it when it takes relatively little effort to revert them, and the FAQ will take time.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 05:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

== Lifetime Original Movie. ==

So I can't sleep and therefore am watching 1:00am Will & Grace reruns when I see a promotion for the Natalie Holloway Lifetime Original Movie. I'm speechless at just how fucking retarded this is. Anyhow, let's add something about it to improve the article cuz it's notable and, IMHO, wikipedia are srz bzniz. [[Special:Contributions/96.237.59.92|96.237.59.92]] ([[User talk:96.237.59.92|talk]]) 06:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

:It is in the Twitty section already, has been for some months. Thanks for the thought.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 07:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:36, 3 March 2009

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