Talk:Gjergj Pelini

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Move[edit]

Closed discussion after a request at WP:ANRFC. There is clearly no consensus between the two editors. As the previous move doesn't have consensus, therefore the un-discussed move will be reverted per WP:BRD and Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Determining consensus:

However, sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name that cannot be undone without administrative help. Therefore, if no consensus has been reached, the closer should move the article back to the most recent stable title.

If Antidiskriminator wants, that this article is renamed, than xe should initiate a requested moves discussion. Armbrust The Homunculus 13:48, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This move goes against most common name in English: A simple research in google books will yield nothing for Pelinovic. Most common name is Gjergj Pelini, but I will agree to a move to George Pellinus, which is what Robert Elsie calls him in his historical dictionary. I really think that Pelinus should be middle ground, and a good solution. If we had to do a google books research Gjergj Pelini would be way more numerous than Pelinovic. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

This person has not received significant attention in English language sources. There are plenty of Serbian language sources that frequently refer to him as Пелиновић. I think it is obvious that Đorđe Pelinović was his native name. There is some wikipedia rule which says that if subject of the article has not received significant coverage of English sources then it is recommended to use name from sources of the native country. Don't you agree?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
If he was Pelinovic or Pelinov or anything else, it is not actually relevant (even if you found a birth certificate of him, which I doubt). Ђорђе Пелиновић has no coverage in any English source, whereas Gjergj Pelini yields Elsie in English and Armin Hetzer in German, as well as Albanian sources. So we both agree that there is no significant coverage in English. The policy says "When there is no single obvious term that is obviously the most frequently used for the topic, as used by a significant majority of reliable English language sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering the criteria listed above." The criteria are these. There is nothing that I can see here, but there will always be more sources in Albanian than in Serbian for Pelini, since he was Skanderbeg's ambassador, so redirects will be a problem. Changing into George Pellinus, an Englicized version, is really middle ground, and it's actually what's suggested by a scholar (Elsie), for use in English. That's why I propose George Pellinus. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Elsie is quite clear that Gjergj Pellini is Albanian language neologism, not English language name. Elsie is respectable scholar, but a couple of his works do not provide significant coverage. I will find wikipedia rule which I mentioned before. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I didn't say that he presents significant coverage, on the contrary, I said that I agree with you that there is no significant coverage. --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Here is what I mentioned earlier: WP:ENGLISH guideline says:
  • "It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low Google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.)."
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
And the next sentence goes "If, as will happen, there are several competing foreign terms, a neutral one is often best. The sections "multiple local names" and "use modern names" in WP:NC (geographic names) express some ideas on resolving such problems.". Don't you think that George Pellinus is a neutral one? --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any neutrality issue here. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
How don't you see it? We have Gjergj Pelini in Albanian and Đorđe Pelinović in Serbian. Don't you think the policy is applicable and we have to go with a neutral name? --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
French name is Djordje Pelinovic, Italian is Georgius Pelino, Albanian neologism is Gjergj Pelini. "Neologism is the name for a newly coined term, word, or phrase, that may be in the process of entering common use, but has not yet been accepted into mainstream language." Albanian neologism does not mean that the name of this man has a problem with neutrality.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:26, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if it's a neologism or not. Gjergj Pelini is the name in Albanian, Đorđe Pelinović in Serbian. No significant coverage in English, so we need to find a consensus for a neutral name. The policy is clear. The name in French and in Italian are irrelevant, btw. If you can't see it, than I'll have to ask for a third opinion. Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Why do you think that Albanian neologism is relevant here? Đorđe Pelinović never lived in Albania. He was not Albanian. There is Albanian language neologism for every name in Serbian language. Gjergj for Đorđe, Gjon for Jovan, Ndre for Andreja, Kole for Nikola, .... Just because there are Albanian language neologisms for those names does not make those names non-neutral. Especially if those names are native names of this people who never lived in Albania. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:36, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Elsie says simply that we don't have written sources from the 15th century with Gjergj Pelini, he is not saying anything else. Ndre, Gjergj, Gjon, Kole are not neologisms, they are simply the respective forms in Albanian of Andrew, George, John, and Nicholas, and not necessarily they are for the Serbian forms of the saints names. Christianity existed in Albanian areas before the Serbians language and Serbs, so those names are not substitute of Christian names in Serbian, they already existed. This is a discussion that is going too far, and actually is defamatory for the Albanian culture and people, so I'll just leave it there, and ask for a third opinion. And Gjergj Pelini, a 15th century person, didn't live in Londonian Albania, he lived in 15th century Venetian Albania --Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 22:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

  • Đorđe Pelinović was born in Serbian Despotate and lived in it until his abbey was captured by Venetians 20 years before he died.
  • The article about Venetian Albania is quite clear. It was another name of Lower Zeta which is now coastal area of Montenegro. It has nothing to do with Albanian language, modern day Albania or Albanians.
  • "Christianity existed in Albanian areas before the Serbians language and Serbs" - irrelevant nationalistic mythology.
  • The current name corresponds with guideline I presented here. If you still believe that the name of this man is not neutral feel free to propose renaming. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:23, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

RFC[edit]

As per my argument above, we had a move of the article from Gjergj Pelini (name in Albanian, and used by Albanian scholars, and some international ones (Elsie and Hetzer) to the current name, Đorđe Pelinović, used exclusively by Serbian scholars).

Since significant coverage in English doesn't exist, we have to go by consensus for this. Policy says in WP:English says:

It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. Very low Google counts can but need not be indicative of this. If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.). If, as will happen, there are several competing foreign terms, a neutral one is often best.

According to this policy, and also taking upon how the only scholar we can find in English (Elsie) calls Pelini/Pelinović in English, I suggest that the article be moved to Georgius Pellinus. The other party (Antidiskriminator) is not consenting to this. A comment will be appreciated.--Perkohesisht ai i vjetri (talk) 23:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment - In case when you insist that an article should be renamed and another editor does not agree with you the appropriate way to check if you are right is to propose renaming, not RfC.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:29, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.