# Talk:Ł

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## MediaWiki: 1, Foot: 0

One would naturally expect Ł to be a valid page title. However, due to an unfortunate placement in the UTF-8 encoding, MediaWiki refuses to acknowledge its existence entirely. Those interested in the fate of this unlucky letter may find an explanation in bug 1587. ᓛᖁ 08:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately some people are violently opposed to moving the en wiki to the UTF-8 encoding (from ISO-8859-1), so letters like Ł remain invalid titles. Nor is it the only case: take a look at [1] and despair….Jordi· 08:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

## Pronunciation

I would be very interested to hear someone pronounce this out of context (if possible) and then in various contexts. Thanks. gren グレン 04:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

It sounds like english w. For example, mały would sound something like mahwe, [máwe] in IPA.

"However, the old pronunciation is preserved in eastern part of Poland (...)" Could someone add the 'old pronunciation'?

Yeah, he's right. What was the "old pronounciation"?

 There you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velarized_alveolar_lateral_approximant


## Origins

Anyone have any information as to the origins of this letter? It does not appear to come from the proto-slavic, more likely it is an import from another language: except, which? bofh 22:18, 7 Feb 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean? You might be mixing up a letter glyph with the soud it represents, which doesn't need to have much to do with each other. (J in English, German and French are mostly pronounced completely different, and words beginning with J in the different lnaguages are seldom related.) The sound the letter represents has evolved from the Proto-Slavic velarized alveolar lateral approximant, as the page says. The glyph itself is a variation of Latin L, possibly because the letter was still pronounced similarly to a Latin L when the alphabet began to be used. 惑乱 分からん 10:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

## Reason for additional references (verify) tag

In accordance to the very wise principles endorsed by WP:RESPTAG, I now explain my reason for restoring the verify (additional references needed) tag:

While Anton has provided plenty of references to back up the usage of the letter in modern Polish, he has provided none to back up the use of the letter in other languages, nor in archaic Polish.

I have also added citation needed tags to clarify exactly what it is that needs that additional verification, again, as suggested by WP:RESPTAG. Cromulent Kwyjibo (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Anton Mravcek (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

## łt?

How do you write ł in handwriting without it looking like a t? 212.137.63.86 (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Łł —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.18.76.220 (talk) 12:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but a joined ł has a tail just like a t. I've checked the font Mistral and the only difference is that ł is a bit taller. ??? 212.137.63.86 (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Handwritten Ł ł (well at least in my parents' handwriting) looks like $\ \ell$ with a wavy line on top. Kasnie (talk) 17:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've even seen it as an L with a tilde on top or through the middle. Probably due to a typewriter workaround. Anton Mravcek (talk) 19:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Handwritten Ł looks like L with a line crossing the main line of the letter and ł looks like l with tilde above it. native speaker --84.10.185.230 (talk) 12:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be tilde, may be straight line. The important fact is that the stroke is at the top of the letter, to disambiguate it from t.

Capital Ł in cursive writing looks much like the £ sign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azarien (talkcontribs) 13:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

## diacritic

Is this considered to be a diacritic symbol? Tkuvho (talk) 21:10, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

No, it's a letter. A diacritic is something added to a letter (for example, the ¸ on ç). rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Our article diacritic uses the term in both senses, whether the addition of the sign produces a new letter or not, for example it says "The Scandinavian languages, by contrast, treat the characters with diacritics ä, ö and å as new and separate letters of the alphabet, and sort them after z." According to this usage, the slash should be viewed as a diacritic sign even though it creates a new letter according to the Polish convention. I wonder why the slash is not mentioned there. Tkuvho (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't see much difference between the two. Ł is considered a separate letter in Polish, but it's obviously derived from L.--Azarien (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
A diacritic is what is added to the letter, here the slash is the diacritic and L is the letter. Sometimes diacritics are used to create new letters with different meaning, and sometimes they just create variants of letters with added meaning, and sometimes even it's style variants with no added meaning. They way the are used in alphabet's order varies from one language to another or even within one language. -Moyogo/ (talk) 13:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)