Talk:.22 Long Rifle

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Inappropriate[edit]

As a 22lr rimfire enthusiast and a Wikipedia reader I find the following entry curious to say the least and I sense it is innapropriate, or perhaps not the best use of space.


"The .22 LR has also been found to be the weapon of choice for several suspected Mafia assassinations, with the victim usually being shot at close range in the head. Such inexpensive Saturday night special pistols used in this way are called doctor guns, the implication being that they are most effective when inserted into an orifice (such as a nostril, or ear) before being fired, and then being disposable by virtue of their very low cost"

Regarding the 22lr rimfire round, this is not the sort of thing I would come to Wikipedia to read about. Talking about how one can insert a 22 into the orifices of another person thus the "doctor gun" designation would seem to lend itself to some urban legends website and not Wikipedia. I am suggesting the claim is untrue, I am questioning whether that sort of thing is appropriate for this Wikipedia article.

I am sure there is some nutcase out there who has put the barrel of a 22 in the vagina of a woman and pulled the trigger, should we go research that use of a 22 and document it here as well? Perhaps have sopme links to vagina/22 lr killers?

And are we going to document every nut job who has used a 22 while committing a crime and document it here? Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or a vehicle to hype weird and unusual urban legend sort of information. Is that the purpose of this page? To document uses other than what the bullet was intended to do?

The 22lr rimfire is a small game, plinking and target bullet, why do we need to find grotesque instances where it was used for reasons other than its designed purpose? Yeah some special ops allegedly use 22s sometimes. Fair enough but "doctor guns" and orifice shooting? Do we really need to put stuff like that in a Wikipedia article? And although only one criminal who used a 22 in a crime is mentioned, suppose someone wants to document every psycho who ever used a 22 during a crime?

Perhaps a more suitable page might be "Gun Psychos and Crime: Their methods and preferred calibers" and leave this 22 Long Rifle article to discussing the 22 Long Rifle.

Anyhow, call me square if you will, but I just find some of this article to be highly questionable.

Mr Christopher 20:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I agree that stuff should probably go on a separate page, or maybe a subsection on "Mafia" or "Hit Man". I think the bit on suppressors should probably be kept, since the .22 LR seems to be the caliber of choice due to the small volume of gas, and countries that put little limit on suppressor possession often sell cheap, all plastic suppressors for .22 LR firearms. I'd also like to see some real external validation of the "assassin's weapon of choice"--certainly the Ruger MKII shows up lots of movies as such, but is that a reflection of reality, or just Hollywood? My general rule of thumb is any information on firearms given in a movie is 99% likely to be entirely false...
As for the term "doctor gun", I think it can be yanked as unverifiable--certainly I see no mention on the web, other than here. scot 20:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and supressors for a 22 are pretty common outside of the United States. And I failed to mention that otherwise I think this entire article is exceptional. Mr Christopher 21:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with previous concerns that material regarding the use of .22 LR by hitmen was written in poor taste, but the use of suppressed .22 LR in professional killings is in fact documented. I think there is enough evidence to support the notability of statements regarding their use in such a manner on the website Crime Library, which has articles that describe a vast range of crimes. Its articles provide accounts of the use of .22 LR rounds and suppressors in killings. However, according to its articles, the use of suppressed .22 LR rounds for murder is almost exclusive to hitmen. There are two articles that mention use of suppressed .22 LR by the Italian Mafia, John Gotti -The Last Mafia Icon and "What're You Gonna Do Now, Tough Guy?", and an article on the murder of Vincent and Margaret Shelley in 1987 by the "Dixie Mafia," Biloxi Confidential. There are an additional two article that describe the use of .22 LR with homemade suppressors, BLOOD BROTHERS: GARY AND THADDEUS LEWINGDON, about a pair of serial killers, and The Artist and the Killer: Frank Bender and Hans Vorhauer. Those two articles are of almost no relevance because the first is about serial killers and not hitmen while the second is about a hitman but does not give specific examples of when he used his attaché case gun for murder. I can see why the mention of .22 LR in crimes might seem repugnant and irrelevant, as any firearm caliber can be used for nefarious purposes, but the truth should not be censored.

By the way, Strong Men Armed confirms use of suppressed .22 LR by Marine Corps Force Recon. However, it does not give very many details, only that they are in their arsenal.--TDogg310 (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Doctor Gun[edit]

"Doctor gun" is verifiable. See talk under "doctor gun" for links to where it is documented as having been used. It is a common term used among quite a few mailing lists on handguns. I have seen it used for several years now, and have also heard it used in various parts of the country. As for the use of 22 LR with suppressors, read the articles on the OSS and Wild Bill Donovan, head of the OSS in WWII, and especially silencers where he even demonstrated a silenced 22LR for the President inside the White House, no less. Also, the favored gun of the OSS during WW II was definitely a silenced 22 LR. The reason for this choice of caliber was that it was especially effective at being a quiet gun, while still providing enough firepower. (It is almost impossible to silence a large caliber semi-automatic pistol, which probably won't cycle if a suppressor is attached. It is likewise impossible to silence a revolver.) Using a silenced 22 LR is mentioned in several biographies of Wild Bill Donovan. It was also claimed by a former (and now late) professor of mine who had graduated from University of Chicago and who was recruited from there by Wild Bill during WW II for service in Europe circa 1943. He claimed he carried a silenced 22 LR pistol as his primary weapon. Yaf 07:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

OTs-38 Stechkin silent revolver. You're welcome. 124.169.146.247 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC).

Cleanup[edit]

It should be cleaned up a little. First of all, as has been mentioned, suppressed 22 pistols are common outside of the US. In general, any pistol 'nice' enough to accept a suppressor is expensive enough/well made to avoid the 'Saturday Night Special' moniker, which is a pretty imprecise label that I admit I have never actually heard or seen except in the non-gun media.

Question[edit]

I have some question about how the effective range of 150 meters was arrived it. In my experience, we have generally regarded 22 LR as having an effective range of about 75 yards for hunting, which is less than half the value stated in the article. Tony Belding 19:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

C.S.Landis in "Hunting with the .22" recounted how he took a killing shot at a groundhog at what was later measured at 175 yards; he wrote that in hindsight that was irresponsible. He recommended shooting small game under 100 yards with a .22. Target shooting with the .22 LR at 200 yards is common. So effective range comes down to what you are using the gun and ammo for. For hunting, 75 yards is probably maximum for most small game. For target shooting, 200 yards to 200 meters is not uncommon. While most .22 rounds will penetrate six 3/4 inch pine boards spaced 1 inch apart at close range and will break window glass at an extreme range of about a mile, they will not penetrate a metal water bucket at 400 yards. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup[edit]

A significant majority of the world uses the metric system of measurement, And as such it might be helpful to list distances in meters, as well as yards.

Yes I agree, although in the firearms world distances are frequently measured in yards but I believe both should be specified —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.228.75.44 (talk) 09:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
I would also agree, but I would suggest that the article be standardized: some measurements are listed as '40 grain (2.5gram)' and others are vice-versa, with the metric first. I don't know which way it should go, maybe there's a policy on that, but in any case I think it would be a bit more readable if all measurements were shown the same way. 4.249.147.40 15:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. WP:UNITS says:

"If for some reason the choice of units is arbitrary, choose SI units as the main unit, with other units in parentheses. For subjects dealing with the United States, it might be more appropriate to use U.S. measurements first, i.e. mile, foot, U.S. gallon."

This is not a specifically USAian subject, so SI units should go first. --Wasell(D) 08:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
This is en.wikipedia.org so the units used by English, American, Canadian and Australian shooters should be listed first, although I do find metric conversion useful information that should be included. Naaman Brown (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Of the the English-speaking countries listed, only the Americans make little or no use of the SI (Metric) System. The point is not which system "shooters" use, but which system is most common in English-speaking countries. This is not a special-purpose reference, but is intended for the general public.Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


the 22lr can kill at 1 mile, people underestimate it! Cj3006 (talk) 10:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This is true. I seem to recall reading tests done by forum members at some military-themed firearms forum site (I cannot recall which one) circa 2009 in which they discovered that .22 LR was capable of penetrating things like, for example, a mostly-frozen turkey wrapped in several layers of heavy winter clothing from distances past 400m, if the marksman has the skills to hit it from out that far. "It's only a .22" is a term that should cause us to raise an eyebrow when we hear it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 19:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

A rifle or pistol round?[edit]

Is a .22lr legally considered a rifle or pistol round since it is a common round for both? 71.227.210.125 07:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Dylan Porter.

Both. If, for example, you purchase a brick of .22 LR at Wal-Mart, they will ask you if it's for use in a rifle or a pistol; if you say "pistol" you must be 21 or older, if you say "rifle" you must be 18 or older. The only difference between the .22 Long and the .22 Long Rifle is the overall length, which is longer in the Long Rifle since it typically uses a longer, heavier bullet. scot 15:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I was told once that if the ammo can be used in a handgun, it can't be sold to anyone under 21. At Wal-Mart a "customer over 21?" (or similar) pops up when they are scanned. I tried to buy some when I was under 21 but some stores wouldn't sell them to me. Once I went to buy some at a Wal-Mart and after asking for my id to see that I was over 18 when shotgun shells were scanned the cashier saw my id then scanned the .22 brick and answered yes that I was over 21, even though I wasn't. --Kalmia 05:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Federal law is 18 for ammo intended for use in rifle and 21 for ammo intended for use in pistol. On dual purpose rounds (and I own both pistols and rifles in .22 and .357), the federal rule is what the purchaser is buying the ammo for. "WalMart rules" seem to vary from store to store, locality to locality, and reflect store policy more than federal law or even local law. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Practically, most .22 LR rounds are loaded as a compromise between a pistol round and a rifle round, to give adequate performance in a four-inch pistol barrel as well as common twenty to twenty-six inch rifle barrels. The Remington Nylon 66 was introduced (~1959) with a 19.5 inch barrel because the Remington Golden .22 LR began losing pressure in ~19 inches. Naaman Brown (talk) 18:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Quick Question[edit]

The article makes reference to 'a brick' of ammunition, which I'm guessing is a reasonably large number of rounds. Could someone link in an article or put a number to how many this is? It's a bit non-obvious for someone not versed in the subject (like me). [—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.9.60.221 (talkcontribs)

Usually 500 to 600 rounds. Depends on the ammo maker I think. I could add a reference but it would be to a retail site more than likely, and would be deleted as link spam. I'll see what I can do. Thernlund (Talk | Contribs) 05:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It's already listed in the article in paragraph 2. Arthurrh 05:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Bah. So it is. I hadn't looked yet. I'm sure I'd have spotted it once I began to investigate the original question. Thernlund (Talk | Contribs) 05:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Specification table erroneous[edit]

The table attached to this article lists the diameter of the base of a .22LR cartridge as .571" -- hello? well over half an inch? The measurement should be .271. I didn't see a way to edit the inset spec table. 70.243.39.148 06:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the infobox. It's generally at the top of the article, I've fixed it. Arthur 21:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Aye. A "brick," so nicknamed for its size, shape, and weight, is a carton normally containing ten individual 50-round boxes for a total of 500. I think Federal Ammunition packages some of its red-box "American Eagle" line in cartons of 400 with individual boxes of 40, for what reason I cannot guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 (talk) 16:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


I think these articles should reference SAAMI specs, which have different dimensions than shown in article. Markbrumbaugh (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)MarkBrumbaugh

Questions[edit]

1: When were .22 bullets first produced?

.22 Cartridges common name, year of introduction, developer;
BB bulleted breech cap, 1845, Flobert;
Short, 1857, Horace Smith & Daniel Wesson;
Long, 1871, ?Frank Wesson?;
Extra Long, 1880, ----------;
Long Rifle, 1887, J Stevens Arms & Tool Co;
CB conical bullet cap, 1888, ------------;
WRF Winchester RimFire, 1890, Winchester;
Win Auto, 1903, Winchester;
Rem Auto, 1916, Remington;
WMR Winchester Magnum Rimfire, 1959, Winchester. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

2: Is it true that they were the favorite weapon of the mafia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.229.163.166 (talk) 20:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

1. The direct ancestor of the modern .22 Long Rifle is the .22 Short, which dates to 1873. There were, I'm sure, .22 caliber bullets before this, but that was probably the first time a .22 caliber rimfire cartridge was widely sold.
2. That's hard to say. It is, however, a provable fact that the suppressed .22 rimfire is a "secret agent" gun; the US has used both Ruger MK II and High Standard pistols fitted with suppressors for various special forces and CIA operations. Gary Powers, for example, was armed with a suppressed .22 Long Rifle High Standard pistol when his U-2 was shot down over Soviet territory. scot (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
3. The kidon teams, or assassination units, of Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service, used suppressed .22 caliber Beretta Model 70S's in their firearm-based assassinations during Operation Wrath of God. There were usually two 'alephs', the Kidon terminology for the actual assassins, both of whom were armed with the suppressed eight-round .22 Beretta. They would shoot the target fourteen times in the upper torso, and once the target fell to the ground, one of the alephs would fire two more rounds — Preceding unsigned comment added by L.J. Tibbs (talkcontribs) 19:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

3: Is it true that a .22 may enter the skull, of a human or large mammal, but not exit, and possibly ricochet inside the skull? I heard this somewhere, and got laughed at when I mentioned it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.53.223.133 (talk) 04:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It can happen; how common it is, I can't say. A quick search of Google Books with the search string ".22 caliber bullet" "head wound" ricochet gave the a number of hits, including the following:
  • "Terminal Ballistics: A Text and Atlas of Gunshot Wounds‎ - Page 41 by Malcolm Dodd, Karen Byrne The .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns."
So you're right, and you can go laugh back. scot (talk) 13:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Worst case scenario--the .22 bullet enters the skull and follows the curve of the skull--is also the least frequent case, depending on a lot of factors (velocity, point and angle of impact on skull, bullet structure, etc.). Sometimes a .22 may fail to penetrate the skull, causing only a concussion. Sometimes there is penetration and the bullet stops within the brain. Sometimes the bullet strikes the opposite side and stops or penetrates and exits. Sometimes it bounces off, causing a secondary wound path in the skull. You cannot depend on the .22 Short or Long Rifle ricoheting inside the skull of a human or large animal, but it has happened. It can happen and deserved or not the .22 has the reputation of doing it. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

A 22lr can do great harm and out of a derringer at point blank range it will hardly be heard , in the city the noise will get lost or will be thought of as a backfire .Cj3006 (talk) 10:19, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008[edit]

Reassessment of this article was completed. Still a Start Class. dashiellx (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"Aftermath of woodchuck killed by single .22 shot."[edit]

I've just come across this page from the olympic shooting pages. The "Aftermath of woodchuck killed by single .22 shot." photo seems at best a little bizarre, and at worst very disturbing. It's unnessiary, doesn't illustrate any point whatsoever and should be removed. Kantokano (talk) 21:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it's completely unnecessary. I removed the picture after it was first added, but it was re-added by User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles and I didn't notice the edit. So I'm going to remove it now. — DanMP5 22:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Suppressors on .22 LR[edit]

The article includes this line:

    "a .22 LR firearm with a suppressor is often favored for plinking, as it
     does not require hearing protection or disturb the neighbors"

Unless something has changed, silencers and suppressors have been illegal in the United States for many years--1933 as I recall. It would seem appropriate to add some explanatory text to that effect to the article.

137.159.79.11 (talk) 23:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC) DJ

But what does this sentence have to do with the United States? It clearly says that this is only the case "where firearm suppressors are only minimally restricted", and there certainly are (a few) places with less gun restrictions than the US. (A real problem with the sentence would be that it's entirely unreferenced.) -- Jao (talk) 00:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
For the record, the year is 1934 and only the manufacture or possession of such a device without the appropriate legal documents is illegal. -- Nevard 05:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
My cousins have legal suppressors on a Ruger 10/22 rifle and a Ruger Mark III pistol. You get an ATF Form 4 for transfer of registration from a Class III dealer and pay a $200.00 excise tax. They are not illegal but are strictly regulated under US federal law (although a few states and some cities do have bans). They are fun for plinking without requiring ear protection; you can hear the bullet hit a tin can (often making more sound than comes from the muzzle of the gun) and do not disturb the neighbors or their livestock. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Sweden, Finland, France and England are noted as countries where legitimate use of silencers is recognised and less restricted than in the USA. Not long ago, two British visitors were outraged that the air gun silencer they had brought from England as a gift to their American host was siezed as contraband (they had believed the US had less restrictive gun laws than England and in England air gun silencers (mufflers or suppressors) are essentially unregulated). Naaman Brown (talk) 19:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Note: Airgun suppressors are only for CO2 weapons. They won't do anything for spring-piston weapons like Gamo or Beeman (no wiki article for Beeman...hmm) which are already lower sound volume than the CO2 guns. The reports on spring-piston style weapons are comparable to suppressed .22s. Airgun suppressors are mostly marketing hype...not worth the money let alone the trouble.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Depending on the exact jurisdiction in the US, a noise muffling device intended for an airgun or CO2 gun may be legally regarded as equivalent to a "real" silencer for "real" firearms, requiring all the same permits, forms, registration, transfer taxes, etc. The state of Michigan is one example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.21 (talk) 17:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you happen to have a citation for that? It does NOT require the same forms. There are no transfer taxes on that. Definitions for BATF Form 4 and Form 5 weapons do not include anything for airguns. National Firearms Act of 1934 and a few other associated laws are federal. Now, if it is added to an actual firearm and suppresses the report then yeah, someone better try to get a paperwork or they will be committing a crime.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 05:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun_laws#United_States states it but provides no details. I am aware that there were in the last few years recalls by the Cabela's stores in Michigan, and signs were put up saying that air guns sold with muffler devices had to be returned for a refund as they had been found to be illegal in the state of Michigan. But this was before the recent Attorney General opinion that firearm suppressors were not illegal after all and could be possessed lawfully by Michigan residents providing appropriate Federal licensing paperwork had been done, transfer stamps purchased, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

International standard of units[edit]

Why is the international standard of units written in parenthesis throughout the entire article? It should be imperial units in parenthesis not the other way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.54.219 (talk) 20:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Why do you believe this? Please draw on WP:UNITS for your answer. NJGW (talk) 20:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Weasel! Weasel!!![edit]

Quote: .22 LR is effective within 150 meters (490 ft), although practically this range will be much less.

Why not just write the effective practical range there and stop wasting my AvGas ... AND my furping time? Maikel (talk) 15:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Effective range is almost wholly dependent upon the skill of the user. The trajectory of the round is such that shooting past 150m requires fairly precise knowledge of the distance to the target plus sights with considerable elevation adjustment, but there are people who shoot the .22LR out past 250m--using very expensive match rifles and high-end telescopic sights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 15:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Too US-centric[edit]

This article's content almost entirely refers to US practices, rules, etc. Even manufacturers and brands mentioned are all American. Please try to globalise it. Roger (talk) 17:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's an American subject...no need to globalize.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh really? Please explain how it is possible that I as a South African citizen and resident own a .22 handgun manufactured in Switzerland and that I practically always use South African manufactured ammunition in it. Roger (talk) 11:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Because the .22LR is an American Cartridge designed by an American company whose popularity is most concentrated in the United States. Now you can discuss the brand of ammunition you purchased in South Africa and the pistol from Switzerland in their relevant articles, but until the origin of this cartridge points to either of these other countries it will remain an American-centric article. 174.126.63.208 (talk) 23:19, 5 June 2010 (UTC) Mitya
Gentlemen, gentlemen. If anyone has additional information to add to the article to make it more international and less US-centric, by all means, please add it. Those who use Wikipedia and read articles like this one are always eager for any relevant information that anyone may wish to add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.61.156.96 (talk) 02:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree, any useful, well-sourced information is good for the article. This is an international encyclopedia. Someone once before took out the metric caliber and I had to reinsert it. However if someone needs the article to be broader, then they (Roger) could be the impetus to do it. MartinezMD (talk) 03:56, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

parking this here for now[edit]

Variations in Long Rifle cartridges and firearms

The .22 Long Rifle cartridge and firearms for it have been in production since 1887 by different makers on every continent. Cartridges and firing chamber dimensions in new firearms may vary within minimum and maximum European CIP or U.S. SAAMI specifications. Makers may tend to adher to the minimum or to the maximum range of the standard specification; also, dimensions may vary toward the maximum as equipment wears during manufacture. Firearms are also subject to wear and erosion in use that may affect chamber size and bore diameter. While most .22 rimfire firearms have barrels with a rate of twist of 1 turn in 16 inches (40.6 cm) (optimum for the standard 40 grain (2.6 gram) bullet), that is not always the case. If the bullet weight varies significantly from the typical 36 to 40 grain range, some .22 firearms do not fire very light or very heavy bullets with the same degree of accuracy as the standard weight. Most firearms authorities recommend testing a .22 firearm with ammunition from different makers to find the most reliable or most accurate match to the individual gun.

Cartridges Long Rifle in name only

The standard .22 Long Rifle has a case length of .595 inch (15 mm) and typical overall of .985 inch (25 mm) with the 40 grain (2.6 gram) bullet. Cartridges nominally labelled .22 LR may actually only match the overall cartridge length. The Aguila SSS uses a .22 Short case length of .423 inch (11 mm) and a long 60 grain (3.9 gram) bullet. The CCI Stinger uses a case length of .71 inch (18 mm)[Spanish language cartridge identification site] and a short 32 grain (2.1 gram) bullet. While overall cartridge length of the Aguila SSS and CCI Stinger are within nominal .22 LR specification and load, feed and chamber the same as .22 LR in most firearms, some firearms chambered for .22 LR have difficulty ejecting the short or extra long empty cartridge casings.

Comments and additional sources welcomed. Naaman Brown (talk) 15:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

"High Velocity" Section is a CCI Advertisement[edit]

Does it seem to anyone else like this article is rather CCI centered? Look at the section on "High Velocity." Lots of praise for CCI Stinger & CCI Velocitor rounds, no mention by name of other manufacturers:

"The CCI Stinger was the first hyper velocity .22 LR cartridge, and provided a significant increase in velocity and energy... The Stinger uses a longer case, a stronger powder charge and a lighter bullet... make the most use of the length of a rifle barrel... the powder used in the Stinger increases velocity... reducing barrel wear... The CCI Velocitor is a hyper velocity round... a proprietary hollow point design to augment expansion and trauma for hunting... Velocitor performs better at longer range compared to the light bullets of other hyper velocity rounds."

This is not only POV, this is a commercial for CCI. 0x539 (talk) 02:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually CCI carved its niche in the rimfire ammunition market by innovating hypervelocity rounds; some of the hypervelocity rounds introduced by Remington, Federal and others just did not stay on the market (Viper and Spitfire for example). CCI stinger was first and has stayed on the market while others have disappeared and is kinda hard to ignore. Aguila (Mexico) is making some innovative rimfire loads. Naaman Brown (talk) 04:02, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Can someone add reference to back up what Naaman Brown said? --81.103.103.78 (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, it may depend on what stores one goes to, but locally (I am a Michigan resident) I can find Remington's hypervelocity .22 LR ammo in stock without having to special-order it, and it appears to be current production, as of spring 2012. Both the "Viper" (copper-plated solids) and the "Yellowjacket" (hollowpoints with a brass colored plating) loads are available packaged in the little plastic trays of 100. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 21:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect figures, Popularity section[edit]

In the Popularity section, a few numbers seem a little out of whack:

".22 LR ammunition is available in a very wide variety, and a very wide price range. Bullet weights range from 20 to 60 grains (1.9 to 3.9 g), velocities from 575–1,750 feet per second (110–530 meters per second)."

Since one grain = 64.79891 milligrams, the correct figures would be:

20 grains = 1.3 g
60 grains = 3.9 g

575 ft/sec = 175.3 m/sec
1750 ft/sec = 533.4 m/sec

Someone seems to have changed the minimum figures for both bullet weight and velocity without redoing the metric conversions. Does anyone know whether or not these minimum figures (20 grains, 575 feet/second) are correct?

I'm not sure what you're saying. The numbers are created using the convert template and seem to be properly converted when I spot-checked. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 04:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
It currently reads:
"Bullet weights range from 20 to 60 grains (1.9 to 3.9 g), velocities from 575–1,750 feet per second (110–530 meters per second)."
It should read (IF the minimum given Imperial mass (20 grains) and velocity (575 ft/sec) are correct):
"Bullet weights range from 20 to 60 grains (1.3 to 3.9 g), velocities from 575–1,750 feet per second (175–530 meters per second)."
I'm going to go ahead and change it. Can anyone provide citations for a 20 grain .22LR bullet and a low-velocity (subsonic) round at 575 feet per second? Heavenlyblue (talk) 02:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
AliveFreeHappy, slight misunderstanding - I notice that you had made two or three alterations to the unit conversion template minutes before and minutes after I wrote my original message. Your final one seems to have been successful in fixing the problem. Of course, I was referring to the situation before your repairs. Sorry, I neglected to check the article first today before checking the Talk Page response. Heavenlyblue (talk) 03:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, for your interest, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit):

"A grain is a unit of measurement of mass that is based upon the mass of a single seed of a typical cereal. Historically, in Europe, the average masses of wheat and barley grain were used to define units of mass, with the troy grain based on barley."

barley grain ~65 mg
wheat grain ~50 mg

Heavenlyblue (talk) 01:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Bullet Construction[edit]

The standard .22 rim fire cartridges (BB, CB, short, long, long rifle) differ in construction from most other cartridges in the way the bullet is constructed and held in the case. In "normal" cartridges, the bullet is inserted completely within the "neck" of the cartridge case, being held in place by tension from the case neck around the bullet bearing surface and, in some cases, a small crimp at the very top of the case around a cannelure (groove) in the bullet. Military grade ammunition also use a sealant around the case neck (and primer) to prevent intrusion of moisture (or other foreign matter) that may affect reliability. The sealant also acts as a glue, assisting in bullet retention.

Bullets for the standard .22 RF (does not include the .22 Rim Fire Magnum or .22 WRF/.22 Remington Special) are constructed with a "heel" (stem) on the rear of the bullet which is inserted into case and the case mouth is then crimped around that stem, leaving the majority of the bullet bearing surface exposed. This construction method has an inherent weakness in that it does not protect the cartridge from exposure to moisture or other elements that adversely affect ammunition reliability. One may take one of these cartridges, hold the case with the fingers of one hand and the bullet between the fingers of the other hand and actually turn (twist) the bullet without turning the case (a little resistance may be encountered at first). This means that the seal between the bullet and case is minimal.

Overall reliability of todays rimfire ammunition is extremely high, but is considerably less reliable than "standard" type ammunition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdigirolomo (talkcontribs) 15:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

.22 for trap and skeet????[edit]

using reduced scale versions of clays? This is simply not possible. Trap is a 12 gauge game, skeet shoots 12 gauge down to .410 shotguns. There are no .22 shotguns to shoot trap or skeet with, and no such reduced versions of trap or skeet targets. That paragraph has got to be a hoax. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.167.224 (talk) 22:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

No, it's correct. Not sure how many models there may be but there was at least the Remington Model 572 with a Routledge bore as well as the Mossberg Model 42TR Targo which had smoothbore barrels. They could be used with a Mo-Skeet-O mini-skeet launcher or Mossberg's Targo launcher. See this and this. Here is a Mo-Skeet-O.
These were for home fun but also were found in carnivals as games as well as used with Boy Scouts from the 1950's until the 80's.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Dead link[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Link removed
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 04:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Ballistics source gone[edit]

The page cited for all the ballistics figures no longer exists. Attys (talk) 21:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Ballistic performance - barrel length?[edit]

Most ammo infoboxes state what kind of barrel the tests were performed with. Not only is that missing from the .22LR infobox, is round is probably the single one with the greatest variation in barrel lengths used. I came here looking for the difference in muzzle energy between this round as fired from a handgun (let's say 4" barrel) vs a rifle (let's say 22" barrel). No luck! Though, I am going to imagine that the cited figures are for rifle performance. No way to tell, though, since as mentioned immediately above, the source links are dead. --67.180.106.165 (talk) 03:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles[edit]

"A standard rimfire cartridge can have a ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles (2,400 m).citation needed"


A citation is not needed in my opinion, it's written virtually on every 22lr ammo box. Plus, this affirmation is already present in the intro. There's no need to doubt manufacturer warning.

ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles[edit]

"A standard rimfire cartridge can have a ballistic range of up to 1.5 miles (2,400 m).citation needed"


A citation is not needed in my opinion, it's written virtually on every 22lr ammo box. Plus, this affirmation is already present in the intro. There's no need to doubt manufacturer warning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.37.252.220 (talk) 23:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)