Talk:2005 Tour de France

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Most reports have Ullrich as the most likely challenger to Lance Armstrong, or at least one of the top 2. This page has him at 14. Nroose 1 July 2005 05:27 (UTC)

  • The names of the contenders are arranged according to the alphabetical order of their surnames, they are not listed in order of probability to win the race.
  • Perhaps a new page should be created especially for the stage recaps.
Indeed, last year (2004 Tour de France), the stage recaps are on a separate page so as not to take up too much space in the main article. Unless someone can suggest a better method to the 2004 model, I'll change this year's format to that model after a couple of more stages. --Commander Keane 3 July 2005 11:32 (UTC)
Last year we moved the stage recaps after 10 stages and again at the end of the Tour. Snowspinner July 3, 2005 14:48 (UTC)
  • Please remember that you must write "Crédit Agricole" not "Credit Agricole"; and the first man to wear the yellow jersey is Dave Zabriskie, not Zabriske.
  • Do we really need to write out every team's full name after the rider? Couldn't we use the three-letter initial for them? --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 6 July 2005 19:09 (UTC)
We probably don't, but since I get yelled at for typos, I tend to just copy-paste lists of names from the newswires, and so tend to adopt whatever conventions they use. :) That said, I like full names. Snowspinner July 6, 2005 21:07 (UTC)

Rider retirements[edit]

I have noticed that Constantino Zaballa, (Saunier Duval) has been listed as retireing at the end of Stage 5.

At List of teams and cyclists in the 2005 Tour de France there are 21 teams with 9 riders each, which means 189 riders started the race. However, in Stage 3 Robbie McEwen was relegated to 186th place (the back of the field). Who are the additional retirements, or did some riders not start the tour? --Commander Keane 6 July 2005 19:15 (UTC)

He was not relegated to the back of the field, but to the back of the pack that came through with him, which was of 186 riders. Three people finished behind the peloton. Snowspinner July 6, 2005 19:20 (UTC)
Guys, care to respond to my question above? :P Also, Snowspinner is correct in saying that even though the riders finish the same time (members of a group all get the same time as the first person across) you still have the stage classification (for tiebreaking purposes). --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 6 July 2005 21:03 (UTC)

Team naming convention[edit]

Above, Penwhale has written:

Do we really need to write out every team's full name after the rider? Couldn't we use the three-letter initial for them?

I prefer to use the shortened form of the team name, rather than the 3 letter abreaviation, but not the extended form. By this, I mean the format used on the List of teams and cyclists in the 2005 Tour de France. This is easy to understand, without having to refer elsewhere to decipher the 3 letter code.

An example of this for Stuart O'Grady would be using "Cofidis", not "COF" or "Cofidis, Le Credit Par Telephone" (which appears to include the company slogan, which is not needed).

I'm not to sure about teams like Française Des Jeux, where this is the team's offical name, but is shortened to fdjeux.com in the List of teams and cyclists in the 2005 Tour de France --Commander Keane 7 July 2005 11:38 (UTC)

I can work with that. The longhand is way too long, though. for FDJ... eh. We can work something out (although I think Française Des Jeux is still too long...) --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 7 July 2005 13:38 (UTC)
What about the following short names? They are widely used by media:

-Discovery Channel -T-Mobile -CSC -Illes Balears -Davitamon -Rabobank -Phonak -Fassa Bortolo -Saunier Duval -Liberty Seguros -Crédit Agricole -Liquigas -Cofidis -Quick Step -Bouygues Telecom -Lampre -Gerolsteiner -FDJeux.com -Domina Vacanze -Euskaltel -AG2R unsigned comment by 83.34.231.12

I think it's a good idea. --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale
We just cannot link to those names, for instance CSC is different from Team CSC and Liberty Seguros is not Liberty Seguros team. -Fred Bradstadt 06:25, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
Although it is more difficult, you can link from these shortened names. For example, to link to Team CSC from CSC, you use [[Team CSC|CSC]]. This will result in the correct link being made: CSC. However, I'm not sure if shortening "Team CSC" to "CSC" is really worthwhile. --Commander Keane 11:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Zabriskie TTT-crash[edit]

There was a lot of speculation about this in the Danish media (Team CSC is, after all, owned by Riis Cycling a/s = Danish tour-winner Bjarne Riis), and after seeing a lot of replays from the crash, Danish former toprider, now expert on the Danish TV2-transmission, Rolf Sørensen came to the conclusion, that Zabriskie's knee hit the handlebar, because of the chain "jumping out" (don't know the English expression for that), in a gear change. Sørensen could quickly dismiss Zabriskie clipping another rider's wheel, as there was plenty of room to the rider ahead of him. In the beginning, a puncture was considered as well, but after reviewing it, he could - the day after the TTT - conclude, that Zabriskie crashed because of the beforementioned reason. I have changed the TTT-section accordingly. Feel free to comment. /AB-me 8 July 2005 00:22 (UTC)

In a post-race interview with David Zabriskie, Dave said that his bike hit a hole in the road. Could this have caused his chain to jump out? If this was the case it was not a mechanical bike malfunction. --Commander Keane 9 July 2005 12:21 (UTC)
I haven't seen that interview, but Dave must know best - after all, he rode the damn bike. :) /AB-me 18:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Personal Naming Convention[edit]

Question: When the List of teams and cyclists in the 2005 Tour de France and letour.com differs the name of riders, which ones do we use? --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 09:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

We should fix list of teams to comply with letour.com. Snowspinner 16:28, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
One question that I raised was because the rider who failed the blood test has diff names on here and on letour.com. --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 16:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Also, Michael Rasmussen of Rabobank is misspelled Mickael on letour.com. I think we should keep the correct version of his name (Michael) -Fred Bradstadt 16:53, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that we should use letour.com because it's a French site and they spell names the French way (even in the English language mirror). An example is Andreas Klöden. The German way (which is spelling used in the Wikipedia article) is Andreas Klöden, but the French way is Andréas Klöden (with an accent over the e). Clearly letour.com is wrong in this case, and probably many others. --Commander Keane 11:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Mountain climb ratings[edit]

Does anyone know how the mountain climb ratings (eg: Category 1 climbs are worse than category 2 climbs, see this diagram for an example) are decided? Are they specific to the Tour de France or road bicycle racing generally? --Commander Keane 14:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there is a UCI directive on it - but I do know that all stage races with hills do categorisation. I think that the TdF directors have their own way of working it out (as do directors at any race), based on the length of a climb primarily (under 1500m would be 4th, over 18km would be HC). After that, they'll take gradient into consideration, but they may actually have a mathematical formula. That probably isn't that helpful, but hey.
I - amazingly - am not playing Tardis Tennis at the moment. 17:59, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The commentators on the Danish tv explaines that there is no generel rule or mathematical formula for the categorisation. It is merely just an estimation of the difficulty of the climb made by the TdF directors. I'm pretty sure that the categorisation is only for the Tour de France, but I'm not certain. Interestingly enough the categorisation was originally not made for the riders, but for the cars. The mountains were introduced in the Tour de France in 1905 and the cars at that point didn't really have the raw power to drive the top of the mountains espescially for the HC mountains. --Maitch 13:38, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
The rating of a particular climb may vary from one year to another. One reason being the location of it during the stage that it is placed in... and possibly also because there isn't a direct rule of categorization, but I'm not sure about that. Peoplesunionpro 00:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Current sports events[edit]

How much liaising is occurring between the daily updates at Current sports events and this page? It seems a pity to have two seperate people write two seperate entries every day.

I - amazingly - am not playing Tardis Tennis at the moment. 17:49, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
None, and there's at least two people updating Current sports events depending on who gets round to doing it first, as can be seen by different styles of updates from day to day! Personally, I watch the days' highlights on ITV2 before I try to throw an item together... -- Arwel 23:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Rider's jerseys progress chart[edit]

Is there any particular reason that the Rider's jerseys progress chart is on a seperate page? It seems like it would fit perfectly well within this article. Akamad 07:19, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

At the time of creating it (From the French version) I thought it might be too big for the main page, but if you think not, then please be bold and move it.--Commander Keane 09:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I like having it on this page, good move. One question I do have is about the chart seeming a bit confusing. When looking at the yellow jersey, for example, Lance won the jersey on the TTT, which was stage 4. The thing is, the chart makes it look like he had it from stage 3 through stage 8, indicating he had won it on stage 3. Is there a better way of representing the chart, or am I just reading it totally wrong? IanMcGreene 13:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Problem is that the chart used a timeline template. We would have to create a different chart altogether if we are to use something different. :) --Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 15:52, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Couldn't we just edit the current template to reflect the stage they won the jersey? So, using the Lance example, couldn't we have him in the yellow between 4 and 9, indicating he won it after the fourth stage and lost it at the 9th? IanMcGreene 19:28, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Done. I think it looks much better. Instead of scaled 0-21, it's now 1-22, so the first block is Stage 1 and is labeled "1" (not "0"). There is a "22", but it's at the bottom, and there is nothing after it, which makes sense since there is no Stage 22. I think it's easier to read this way. Hopefully I realigned all the numbers for the jersey wearers correctly. Somebody should double-check... --Serge 20:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Serge - looks nice, man. I like it much better. IanMcGreene 20:42, July 14, 2005 (UTC)


A lot of info on the Dutch WP[edit]

Perhaps someone has the time to import some info from the dutch page on this years tour de france? There is a lot of information on it, including details on every individual stage and a complete start list. Dutch page on the Tour de France 2005

OK, too quick, I see that there are seperate pages here with that info. Still the Dutch one is even more comprehensive.
Thanks for pointing out the Dutch WP's way of covering the stage overviews, I feel its superior to our current EN version. --Commander Keane 09:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Removing 21st stage info from the standings table[edit]

In the top-right current standings table, now that the 2005 TDF is no longer a current event, shouldn't we remove the top 3 lines (about the 21st stage) and call it "Final standings"? Who won the 21st stage is no more important than who won any of the previous stages. (Ok, it may be a bit premature, just half an hour after the race ended—but when should we do it?) Also, I would like to shorten "Overall standings" to "Overall" or something else that is shorter, thus making the table more compact... -Fred Bradstadt 16:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Yes we should. --WS 21:13, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Most Aggressive[edit]

Oscar Perreiro (team Phonak) won the award for most aggressive rider in the Tour... he got his own podium, so shouldn't that get a mention somewhere? I was going to add it, but I wasn't sure where it would fit in.

Likely contenders section?[edit]

I noticed that in earlier versions of this article there was a "likely contenders" section which later was removed. I think it's useful and interesting to know who were the favorites for a given year, and this list should not be removed. I plan to restore it, if there is no objection. --Serge 02:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Source for teams+combativity[edit]

I updated the jerseys table with the leaders in team classification and the winners of the combativity award from [1], the official site of the 2005 Tour de France. It does not give a nice table, so I did not put it as reference in the article, but now it is on the talk page at least. --EdgeNavidad (talk) 15:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Cadel Evans[edit]

Didn't Cadel Evans finish 8th in the years' tour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harleyrules170 (talkcontribs) 11:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Third place in 2005 Tour[edit]

Ullrich's results for the 2005 Tour have been annulled. Currently, the UCI have not taken any action yet to upgrade the 4th place rider (Mancebo) to the third place, and it is not clear if they will ever do so; the third spot could remain vacant. This article should try to be as accurate as possible, so we should wait with upgrading Mancebo to third place until it has officially been done. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 12:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I give up. I have already reverted four times, which is one too many I guess. Too bad Wikipedia can not do better than other media. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 08:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Ullrich's comments about reinstating Armstrong's titles[edit]

i have removed the part in the lead about Ullrich's (another admitted cheat) comments that his fellow cheat should have his disqualifications reinstated, obviously he is voicing this because he is also a cheat. there is no room in cycling (or any sport) for cheats and there "wins" Nosdan (talk) 11:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not Wikipedia's place to make moral judgments (although I concur with your position); Wikipedia's role is simply to report the facts. I do agree that it should not be in the lede, though, per WP:LEDE. I'm reinstating it, but to the body of the article. TJRC (talk) 18:49, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
there is obvious point of view issues here, you also did not add it to the body but only undid my edit. i have undid your edit and would like some more conversation about this before my edit is undone again. (im also not pleased about my removed of spam that you also undid in another of my edits at hte same time) Nosdan (talk) 15:15, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
TJRC first undid your edit, and then moved it to the body, in two separate edits. In my opinion, Ullrich's comments deserve a place in the article (not in the lede but in the body), but there should also be information about Ullrich's disqualifiation in the same paragraph. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 15:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I propose:

In August 2013, Jan Ullrich—originally third-placed in the 2005 Tour, but as mentioned above removed from the results for being in a doping program—reportedly said that Armstrong should have his seven stripped wins reinstated, due to the prevalence of doping at the time.

Changes are welcome.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 15:46, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I'd suggest "but also removed from the results..." in lieu of "but as mentioned above removed from the results...", just because I don't like self-referential passages. But I can live with either.
Nosdan, please stop deleting the passage while it's under discussion here. So far it looks like the consensus will be to include it; but if it goes the other way, then it can be deleted. In the meantime, please leave it alone. See WP:BRD for the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle. You've been bold, and been reverted, now please allow for the discussion. TJRC (talk) 16:40, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
sorry i have not had the time to deal with this today but will try and give it some more time tomorrow. but just briefly (i think) i only again removed your "undo" which added it back to the lead of this article. i have not edited anything more than the lead of this article (yet). but (again briefly) i dont think Ullrich's comments have a place in this article of the 2005 tour when it is obviously about armstrongs many voided results. agian, sorry this is very brief i will try and add more once i get some more time. Nosdan (talk) 13:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
in fact, i have just reread it again, and am going to remove it again for now. even when in the body it has no relevance to the 2005 tour. it clearly says "In August 2013, Jan Ullrich.. etc" it either belongs in lances page, or his doping page, or ullrichs page. unless you can come up with a reason why it belongs in the 2005 page specifically (versus his other 7 cheated titles) i cant see what relevance it has to the 2005 tours page specifically. Nosdan (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)