Talk:2008 attacks on Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Maharashtra

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Good article 2008 attacks on Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Maharashtra has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

An unnecessarily loquacious sentence (probably)[edit]

The party was founded on the ideology of being the benefactor of the local Marathi Manoos (Marathi people), an ideology that the party members felt the Shiv Sena had given up on.

Is there a way to restructure this sentence to avoid the repetition of "ideology"? Also, would it be wiser to replace "given up on" with "abandoned"? --LaPianista!Sign! 21:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Added "abandoned"...in the meanwhile I'll try m best to restructure the sentence to get rid of the redundant "ideology". --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 13:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Overuse of prepositional phrases?[edit]

It seems to me that prepositional phrases appear too often in this article, especially in this sentence (in which I have colored the individual phrases):

Later on March 28 at a press conference for the International Indian Film Academy, when asked what his take was on the anti-migrant issue, Amitabh said that it is one's fundamental right to live anywhere in the country and the constitution entitles so.

Here's another:

A petition was filed in the Patna civil court on February 8 against him for his remarks over Chhath Puja.

Somehow, the majority of these sentences need to be restructured to avoid the possible exhaustion of the prepositional, adjective, and adverb phrases inherent here. --LaPianista!Sign! 22:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

prepositional phrases, whats that? I am a goner at English grammar! I am sorry but I should have told about my knowledge of good English or rather the lack of it before. :( KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 13:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

talkies?[edit]

The article says "In the night, 150 suspected MNS activists ransacked Pratap talkies in Thane, pulled out the print of the Bhojpuri film "Saiyan se Solah Singaar" and burnt it". Most US/other? readers only know 'talkies' to mean the motion pictures that started to have sound in the 1920s, replacing the silent motion pictures. What could 'talkies' mean here? Hmains (talk) 03:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Theaters were called talkies in India. The IP post below seems more logical. →KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 18:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Movie theaters were called Talkies even in the 1970s. I guess it must have been coined in the 1930s to differentiate this kind of theater from those showing the silent movies.--74.9.96.122 (talk) 16:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will review this article Canadakid2 (talk) 01:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess User:Canadakid2 has quit WP. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 12:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Review[edit]

Hello. I will be doing the GA review for this article. Here are some initial suggestions:

  • Per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize all the main points of the article in no more than four paragraphs. It is a technicality, but there should really only be four.
  • Under the February section, almost every paragraph begins with "On (date)". Try and mix it up a bit for a more interesting read.
  • The same issue in March–May, almost every sentence begins with "On (date)".
  • Per MOS:QUOTE, only quotes that are longer than four lines or are more than one paragraph should be blocked off. All shorter quotes can just be in the text. This suggestion is mainly in reference to "Political analysis" and beyond. There are several short quotes blocked off that would be better as part of the text.
  • People should be referred to by their last names in the text. Raj Thackeray, for example, is referred to as Raj throughout the article.
  • Make sure the references are in numerical order within the text. For example: [79][77][76] --> [76][77][79]

That's just the superficial stuff for now. I'll get into the text more once these are completed. The editors of this article will be given seven days to make this first set of changes. Nikki311 21:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nikki! Thanks for reviewing.
  • The LEAD has been made into 4 paras.
  • Raj Thackeray has been referred to as Raj as the article repeatedly mentions 3 Thackerays—Raj Thackeray, Uddhav Thackeray and Bal Thackeray.
  • Refs have been ordered.
  • The quotes shorter than 4 lines have been un-blocked.
    • However I am finding it very difficult to solve the "On (date)" issue. My prose-skills are very poor. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 12:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

--KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 12:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I got your message. I'll look everything over later today when I have a bit more time. Nikki311 17:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Prose seems to be the only problem left. It isn't quite up to GA standards yet. One option is to try a peer review or get someone from the WP:League of Copyeditors to look it over. It really helps to have as many outside eyes on an article as possible. You can't have a peer review and GAN simultaneously, but I think it is okay to request help from the LoC while a GAN is still open. You could also request assistance at WP:India, WP:HR, and WP:DISCR (all of which have tagged the talk page). While you do that, I'll do some minor copyediting, and see where we end up. Nikki311 02:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I've done some copyediting, and it wasn't as much as I initially anticipated. I think the prose is good enough for GA, but if you are planning for FA...I would definitely get some more people to look over it (it wouldn't hurt, anyway). One last thing...I don't think the timeline is altogether necessary, especially with the article already exceeding the general size guidelines by quite a lot. That is up to you, though. Long story short: I'm passing the article as I believe it meets all the GA criteria, so my other suggestions are basically for if you want to pursue FA or A class. Nikki311 00:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Problem with title[edit]

There is a little problem with the title, which says attacks on north Indians. The fact is, the attack was just on the people from Bihar and UP (to be more correct it's Bihar and eastern UP). Kindly refer the article - [1]. The migrants from Rajasthan, Haryana, Punjab, Uttaranchal were not at all effected by the violence, which the title of this article otherwise suggests. Moreover Bihar is not always considered a north Indian state. Many a time it is referred as an eastern state. Manoj nav (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

According to WP:Common name, "attack on North Indians" is the most common term used by the media (see the references). Titles are decided by popularity. Eg. Jerusalem bulldozer attack

On July 2, 2008, a man identified as a Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem named Hussam Taysir Duwait (Also referred to as Hussam Duwiyat[1], Hossam Dawyyat[2], or erroneously as Jabr Duwait[3]), attacked several cars on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, Israel using a front-end loader (erroneously referred to as a bulldozer in the media [4]), killing three people and wounding at least thirty other pedestrians, before being shot to death.[5][1]

  1. ^ a b "Two teachers among the dead in Jerusalem attack". Haaretz. 2008-07-03. 
  2. ^ "Olmert, Barak: Demolish terrorists' homes". Ynet. 07.02.08. Retrieved 2008-07-04. 
  3. ^ "Three dead in terror attack". TotallyJewish.com. 2nd July 2008. Retrieved 2008-07-04. 
  4. ^ "Jerusalem bulldozer 'terrorist' kills 3 in rampage". CNN. 2008-07-02. Retrieved 2008-07-02. 
  5. ^ "3 killed as Palestinian bulldozer driver goes on killing spree in Jerusalem". Ynetnews. 2008-07-02. 

Even though it was a front-end loader (erroneously referred to as a bulldozer in the media) the article title was kept as "bulldozer" due to WP:Common name. Thanks, --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 13:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, Raj Thackeray himself refer to them as agitation against aggression by uttar bhartiya. I doubt he welcomes Punjabi or Himachal or Rajasthani people while opposing bhaiyas from UP & Bihar. For him non-marathi is a bhaiya. --GPPande talk! 13:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Not really, this surely is an act of generalization. Article itself says that attacks were launched after clashes between two opposing parties and affected people were people from Uttar pradesh and Bihar. People from other northern states like rajasthan and gujarat have been living in MH since ancient times and by now are integral part of MH as such. They were never subjected to any sort of attacks this far. Then how in the world can you generalize it as attack on north indians. --Swaminworld (talk) 02:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Tags[edit]

This article reads extremely lopsided. It is an attack piece on MNS and Raj Thackeray from start to finish. The article reads less like an encyclopedia and more like a magazine... complete with cherry-picked and boxed quotes. Apart from the serious NPOV and {tone}} issues, the article is blind to key facts like a) The court dismissed Amar Singh's case against RT as "false and malicious" b) There is nothing wrong or illegal in what MNS/RT are demanding - be it the demand for jobs for Maharashtrians or the demand for use of Marathi. The article keeps quoting soundbites from MNS' political opponents throughout including the one who filed the "false and malicious" suit and his political allies. Just because you attribute a Sonia Gandhi or Lalu's comment to them does not make for NPOV! The very fact that you're quoting MNS and RT's sworn political opponents is POV. Also, while the article is quick to keep the score, it conveniently turns a blind eye to the support Raj has got even from political opponents like Rane and Pawar. It is equally blind to the attacks on Marathi schools and people in Bihar. Unless this egregious POV-pushing is stopped and the article is rewritten to tone down the sensationalism (by omission and commission), I will be tagging the article. Sarvagnya 20:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

We got your WP:POINT! [2] --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 15:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with all your arguments. No single editor can decide that the article is long or article has POV; or it is not neutral. It should be based on consensus since this is no ordinary article, but a Good article on Wikipedia. Please refrain from adding tags. Discuss first why?I'll answer more later. But for now, no tags should be added KensplanetTalkContributions 17:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Image deletion.[edit]

Image:Raj Thackeray as Hitler.jpg has been nominated for deletion by Sarvagna. This message has been posted here because this is the only article for which the image is intended for. Please leave your opinions here --GPPande talk! 12:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Another[edit]

A group of unidentified men beat to death a 25-year-old migrant labourer from Uttar Pradesh in Mumbai on October 28 2008. Dharam Dev, along with three other labourers from UP, were travelling to Kurla on a Mumbai local train from Khopoli to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus when the group started beating them up after a brawl. Following the incident, Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati has written to the Prime Minister, seeking the Centre’s immediate intervention and a probe into the case.UP migrant lynched on Mumbai local train; Mayawati demands probe

It is a terrible incident. What the article does not mention is if there was any other personal motive other than that he was a from UP. If the only only reason was he was from UP, well, I dont know what to say. It is horrendouns. That aside, I guess this article also becomes innudated with too many such details. Maybe an one liner would do. 12:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, a sad incident...BUT the reason I posted this here is ... I don't know where to put this in the article...the Attacks section is bloating. --KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 15:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Remedy in sight.[edit]

While political leaders struggle for some solution to solve the hate crime problem - few scientist can be much more helpful to solve this crisis. Read this - this is out of discussion of WP - but not a spam. --GPPande talk! 20:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


Recommend Change Title[edit]

North Indian is a large area. whilst this entry is only baout UP and Bihar. The title needs to reflect this recommed it changes to 2008 Attacks on Uttar Pradesh and Bihari migrants in Maharashtra or somthing like that Not-Ashamed (talk) 16:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I remember KHP2 mentioned once that the title was kept this way in accordance with how the incident was described in secondary sources. But, your idea to tweak the title to reflect reality makes sense to me. Docku: What up? 16:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I had already raised this issue in the past - here. Based on WP:Common name, a new page '2008 Attacks on Uttar Pradesh and Bihari migrants in Maharashtra' can be started and the page can be directed to the current article. Manoj nav (talk) 05:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Ok thats great, we have agreement that the title chould change. What shd it cvhange too? I suggest "2008 Attacks on Bihari and Uttar Pradeshi Migrants in Maharashtra"? Any takers for this change? Not-Ashamed (talk) 11:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC
or 2008 Violence against Bihari and Uttar Pradeshi migrants in Maharashtra. "violence" instead of "attack". Docku: What up? 14:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Agree wit Docku (for a change!) :) Not-Ashamed (talk) 01:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I am happy you do and have a smile on your face. Let us see what the main author has to say before we move further. Docku: What up? 01:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Why wait? I mean, no one hwrw waits when discussing changes made to Bihar Racism. What's the point in waiting and showing courtsey here? Manoj? Not-Ashamed (talk) 10:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
North Indians is a collective term used by the media to refer to "Bhaiyas" (UP, Bihar and Jharkhand). Lets stick to it. --KnowledgeHegemony talk 19:32, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
The term North Indians does not just refer to UP, Bihar...This is about UP and Bihari migrants....this must be reflected in the title. "North Indians" could mean anyone from Kashmir, Punjab, MP, and even West Bengal. Lets not stick with it...and move the name to what "2008 Violence againt Bihari and Uttar Pradeshi migrants in Maharastra". Adding Jharkand to your "north India" doesnt make it any better for the entry either...Jharkand is the former south Bihar. "Bhaiyas" is just a racist term for the people of those states. Not-Ashamed (talk) 01:24, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, It looks like "violence" is more appropriate to describe than "attacks". Attack word has been used for articles like 2008 Mumbai attacks. What MNS seems to be doing is promoting "Anti-North-Indian sentiments". Also, 2008 is nearing its end but MNS campaign does not seem to be dying soon. I am sure it will spill over in 2009 when Maharashtra legislative state elections are scheduled. I think both these words would have to replaced soon. --GPPande 20:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
For the reasons you mentioned above and for there are no similar incidents to disambiguate, the year in the title is seemingly pointless. Besides, i reiterate that Notashamed has a point about having an unambiguos title. His suggestion sounds factual, non-POV and non-controversial. We all know Raj has no romance left for other North Indians (not just UP and Bihar) and much less for South Indians, but, that doesnt seem to be the theme of this article. Violence againt Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Maharashtra. --Docku: What's up? 03:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Mentioning UP and Bihar in title is not good. For a reader outside India, it projects UP & Bihar Versus Maharashtra in manner symbolizing some kind of state/civil war is brewing up. Read the articles failed FAC to understand how difficult it was to explain even basic reason behind violence mentioned in this article to readers from outside India. I would strongly oppose such objective titles citing NPOV and OR policies. Raj himself addresses his tirades against Uttar Bhartiyas (not to be confused with Uttar Pradeshsi). Also, Raj is not so welcoming towards Delhi-walas either. Also, article contains mention of not just Raj but Shiv Sena which too uses same term. When two sects of Sikhs clashed in Mumbai, Bal Thackeray strongly made remarks saying "take your fight outside Maharashtra". As said by KHP2 - bhaiya is the word used to describe all non-Maharashtrians. I would suggest leaving it as it is. --GPPande 18:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I dont mind either title. Both titles are not incorrect. I dont understand how this fits to your definition "Do not sensationalize the title - this is not a movie title". it projects UP & Bihar Versus Maharashtra in manner symbolizing some kind of state/civil war is brewing up, not much changes calling it "attack against North Indians". I just want to remind myself that we are not in a business of writing articles to sound in a particular way to readers. could u pls help me locate the FAC? --Docku: What's up? 18:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/2008_attacks_on_North_Indians_in_Maharashtra/archive1 Spotted it]. Thanks. --Docku: What's up? 18:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what Raj says. His violence in this case was linked to people from UP and Bihar. The title needs to change to refelect the reality of what happened. We have an entry where the title does not reflect the entry. The violence in Maharashtra was not directed againt Bengalis, Kashmiris, Punjabis, people of MP....it was specific to two states in the Indian Union. Those states are; Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. Anything else is seriously midleading Not-Ashamed (talk) 09:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree with you on changing the title. Saying attack on North Indians surely is an act of generalization. When article itself says attacks were launched after clashes between two opposing parties and affected people were from Uttar pradesh and Bihar, then there is no point in retaining the title as such. People from other northern states like rajasthan and gujarat have been living in MH since ancient times and by now are integral part of MH. They were never subjected to any sort of attacks this far. Then how in the world you can generalize it as attack on north indians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swaminworld (talkcontribs) 03:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Move Done as per suggestions by many users.--Swaminworld (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Lokmat or Loksatta?[edit]

There seems to be a little error in the sub-section Local vernacular media. It mentions Indian Express editor Sudheendra Kulkarni's open letter in Lokmat (Marathi newspaper owned by The Indian Express) to Raj Thackerey. Lokmat is not owned by The Indian Express groups, it is Loksatta. Lokmat belongs to a different group, i.e. Lokmat group. Also, Sudheendra Kulkarni usually writes in Loksatta. Please verify and make changes if needed. This article is a good article; it should not be left with such error. Shivashree (talk) 06:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Dead link[edit]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 15:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

The article 19 October 2008 All-India Railway Recruitment Board examination attack is about one incident in the 2008 attacks. It is proposed that it be merged in this article. Geeteshgadkari (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

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