Talk:23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)

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GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Retrolord (talk · contribs) 10:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll start this one shortly. RetroLord 10:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct.

" Fierce fighting broke out between the Ustaše, Chetniks and Partisans in NDH territory."

Not sure how that sentence links to the one before it, is one of those groups the muslims reffered to in the previous sentences?

"The Bosnian Muslims' dissatisfaction with the Ustaše rule of the NDH and their need for protection were combined with nostalgia for the period of Habsburg rule in Bosnia and a generally friendly attitude towards Germany among prominent Bosnian Muslims. " This sentence does not make sense, it just lists four things. I recomend a rewrite of it and the next one so it is clearer.

"The Germans wanted to establish a second Muslim SS division,[14] as Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler had a goal to expand Waffen SS recruiting in the Balkans and form two territorial corps of two divisions each in both the Bosnian region of the Independent State of Croatia and in Albania, which with the 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen would form a Balkan SS mountain army of five divisions." This whole sentence needs to be rewritten for clarity. It is confusing and doesn't flow well due to it's length, would recomend splitting into two or perhaps 3 sentences.

Request: I won't let this negatively impact my review, but could you please not list the full German rank and then the English equivalent as it becomes quite long and ruins the flow of the article. Example " SS Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of Waffen SS (Brigadier) Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig" But i'll leave it up to you.

Article claims it was named Kama in the lead, but in the infobox it lists it as a nickname?


1b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

"immediately launched a vicious campaign" Coudl you rewrite to remove the vicious?

"The Germans wanted to establish a second Muslim SS division" Could you rewrite this to be more formal?

"the key Waffen SS recruiting office" I think we should remove the word "key"


2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
2b. all in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines.

Some paragraphs are missing/unclear regarding citations

This para: "Despite Pavelić's assurances of equality with the Croats, many Muslims quickly became dissatisfied with Croatian rule. An Islamic leader reported that not one Muslim occupied an influential post in the administration. Fierce fighting broke out between the Ustaše, Chetniks and Partisans in NDH territory. Some Ustaše militia units became convinced that the Muslims were communist sympathizers, and burned their villages and murdered many civilians. The Chetniks accused the Muslims of taking part in the Ustaše violence against Serbs and perpetrated similar atrocities against the Muslim population. The Muslims received little protection from the Croatian Home Guard, the regular army of the NDH, whom the Germans described as "of minimal combat value"." This paragraph only has one reference? Makes some fairly bold unreferenced claims?

This bit: "On 28 May 1944, Hitler gave his formal approval for the creation of the division, and its formation began on 19 June. It was initially to be created and trained in Bosnia but Himmler, following the advice of the then commander of the 13th SS Division, SS Brigadeführer and Generalmajor of Waffen SS (Brigadier) Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, agreed to form the division in the neighbouring Bačka region occupied by Hungary instead. Sauberzweig believed that if the division was raised in the NDH, Ustaše interference would undermine the morale of the recruits. Orders were given to the 13th SS Division to provide a cadre for the new division, and SS Standartenführer (Colonel) Hellmuth Raithel, a regimental commander from the 13th SS Division, was appointed as the new division's commanding officer."

This bit: "The 10,000 men necessary to form the division were to be obtained through a combination of volunteers, conscription of Muslims born in 1926 and 1927 who had not volunteered for particular Ustaše units, and if necessary, from the various Muslim militias in the NDH. These men were to be made available to the Germans by 15 September 1944."

"Anti-Partisan operations" Can we get a citation for this bit in the infobox?


2c. it contains no original research. None that I can see
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.

"In early 1943, Hitler authorised the raising of the first SS division to be recruited from a non-Germanic people, the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)" Was this division comprised of the autonomists mentioned in the previous sentence?


3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

"They included three non-commissioned officers from every company of the 13th SS Division." I think this is unneccessary detail.


4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6a. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content.
6b. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
7. Overall assessment. Pending

Thanks for the review. I take issue with a number of your comments on the basis that some of the points you have raised are probably specific to military history articles (ie the way we deal with foreign ranks) and others (including a couple of paragraphs in the background) are straight lifts from an article I successfully took to FA. I will address your points on merit and re-submit. FYI, military is misspelt on your user page. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

If you'd like I can reassess it as soon as you nominate it again, just to speed things up for you. And thanks for the warning about my user page. Regards, RetroLord 10:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I have now addressed almost all of the points listed above. The German rank formatting is as per numerous FA and MILHIST A-Class articles, and I don't intend to change it. Some German ranks are long, but using purely British or American equivalents is often not exact, and it is important that the full rank is provided to ensure the relative and comparative responsibilities are clear. The inclusion of the information about the NCOs shows the extent of the cross-pollination between the 13th SS and its sister division, and I do not believe its inclusion constitutes unnecessary detail.

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dank (talk · contribs) 02:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Starting review. - Dank (push to talk) 02:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

  • The best I can tell, prose has been rewritten and additional cites were added as requested in the previous review, except no cite was added for "Anti-Partisan operations" in the infobox, which is fine with me. I don't have the same 3a- and 3b-objections as the previous reviewer had.
  • Toolbox links check out. - Dank (push to talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • For the record, I believe the page title is nonstandard: "23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian)". We don't generally list three different ways of referring to the same thing in a page title, per WP:TITLE. Regretably, FAC reviewers were okay with this for 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian), so I'm not in a position to object here.
  • "The division commenced formation on 19 June 1944, but was never fully established and never saw action as a formation, however elements ...": Begun in 19 June 1944, the division never reached full divisional strength and never saw action as a formation, but elements
  • "Several factors led to a push for autonomy by the Bosnian Muslim population. These included their; dissatisfaction with Ustaše rule of the NDH; need for protection; nostalgia for the period of Habsburg rule in Bosnia; and a generally friendly attitude towards Germany among prominent Bosnian Muslims.": I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this right? "The Bosnian Muslims wanted protection and independence from the Ustaše rule of the NDH, and were willing to get that protection from the Central Powers. Prominent Bosnian Muslims were friendly towards Germany, and Bosnians were generally nostalgic over the former period of Habsburg (Austro-Hungarian) rule."
  • "The resulting push towards autonomy": repetition
  • "The 10,000 men necessary to form the division": The 10,000 men for a full-strength division
  • "obtained through a combination of volunteers, conscription of Muslims born in 1926 and 1927 (with some exceptions), and if necessary, by absorbing the strength of the various Muslim militias ...": obtained from volunteers, from Muslim conscripts born in 1926 and 1927 (with some exceptions), and if necessary, from the various Muslim militias ...
  • "given the fact that": after
  • "... Hungary. Rumours that the Germans were going to abandon the Balkans and leave the Muslims to defend themselves, along with the deteriorating military situation, both contributed to this.": Hungary; the war was not going well, and there were rumours that the Germans were going to abandon the Balkans and leave the Muslims to defend themselves.
  • "Due to high rates of desertion": Faced with high rates of desertion
  • "Due to high rates of desertion from the 13th SS Division, Sauberzweig proposed a plan to disarm the Bosnians in both divisions, but Himmler instead opted for a plan to transport the 2,000 Bosnians of the 23rd SS Division to the area of operations of the 13th SS Division in Bosnia and re-organise both divisions there, with key support arms units from the latter being centralised under the direct control of IX SS Mountain Corps, which would also move to Bosnia.": Faced with high rates of desertion from the 13th SS Division, Sauberzweig proposed a plan to disarm the Bosnians in both divisions. Himmler instead opted for a plan to transport the 2,000 Bosnians of the 23rd SS Division to the area of operations of the 13th SS Division in Bosnia and re-organise both divisions there. Arms units from the 13th were to be brought under the direct control of IX SS Mountain Corps, which would also move to Bosnia. [But I don't know what "Arms units" or "Support arms units" mean.]
  • "The plan included the German cadre of the 23rd SS Division being used to form a new SS infantry division": The plan included the formation of a new SS infantry division under the German cadre of the 23rd SS Division
  • "Andrijaševci, near Vinkovci in the Srijem region on 3 October 1944": Andrijaševci, near Vinkovci in the Srijem region, on 3 October 1944
  • "It became partially operational": What's "It"?
  • "regained control of the situation": regained control
  • I'm not in a position to know if this article covers all "major aspects"; I can say that its coverage resembles that of similar articles, which may be good enough. Were you planning to take this to A-class?
    • Thanks Dan, all addressed. You might just want to check the couple of edits where I've not quite gone with your suggestion. I am planning to take this one to ACR, hopefully I'll get all the Balkan SS divisions to A Class eventually. Thanks for the review! Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
      • Yes, well, I'm glad you didn't go with my "Central Powers" suggestion :) Your edits all check out. I'm going to read a few articles before I sign off on the "major aspects" criterion. - Dank (push to talk) 13:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Otherwise:
  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:  Yes
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:  Yes
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. Has an appropriate reference section:  Yes
    B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:  Yes
    C. No original research:  Yes
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:  Yes
    B. Focused:  Yes
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:  Yes
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:  Yes
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:  Yes. Images are good.
    B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:  Yes
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail: Pass. - Dank (push to talk) 02:12, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dan! Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:17, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Names[edit]

I notice this article uses names such as Srijem instead of Syrmia and Zombor (the Hungarian name for Sombor). Is there any particular reason for this? If not, they should be reverted (i.e. Srijem→Syrmia, Zombor→Sombor) per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. 23 editor (talk) 23:15, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi 23. A couple of good points, the article isn't consistent. The Syrmia one I've resolved by reference to the NDH Posavina County (which was the historically correct political unit at the time) rather than using a vaguely defined regional term with multiple versions. The other issue of naming is that at the time, the Hungarians had re-named quite a few geographical places to the Hungarian version. I think the approach suggested by WP:PLACE is probably appropriate here, inter alia "...former names (Constantinople, Ragusa, Stalingrad or Leningrad) are also used when referring to appropriate historical periods (if any), including such article names as Battle of Stalingrad and Sieges of Constantinople; not to mention separate articles on Constantinople and Byzantium on the historic cities on the site of modern Istanbul - or part of it. It is sometimes common practice in English to use name forms from different languages to indicate cultural or political dominance. For example, Szczecin is often written as Stettin (the German name) for the period before 1945, likewise Gdańsk is called Danzig." As the area was under Hungarian political dominance at the time this article refers to, I suggest the appropriate approach is probably to use the Hungarian name, with the Serbo-Croat name in parentheses on first mention (or a permutation of that format). Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any problems as long as place names in the article are consistent. The Serbian or Croatian names should probably be mentioned in brackets for clarity. 23 editor (talk) 15:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

"never formally part of the Wehrmacht"[edit]

Isn't that a tautology? As I understand it, Waffen SS units were never part of the Wehrmacht. Am I mistaken? Terry Thorgaard (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

But nevertheless always under the command of the Wehrmacht, as the Waffen-SS never had a command above Army, and all Army Groups were commanded by the Wehrmacht. It is an important distinction, IMO. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)