Talk:498 Spanish Martyrs

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(First comment)[edit]

Hi there,

There is an article on this already, check out "Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War". ;)

Dr Benway (talk) 14:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No, this is a different subject. Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War is the general article on the subject; this is about a particular grouping of them. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The list[edit]

This section was a bit of a mess; it was just a jumble of names as it was. I’ve changed it to a list, so we can see who is who. There’s also a number of mistakes in this, comparing it to the source, so I’ve corrected them. And links to articles on the people or the organizations mentioned couldn’t hurt. Moonraker12 (talk) 10:59, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits[edit]

I’ve deleted a load of stuff from the "Background", "Individual fates" and "Controversy" sections as it is just not relevant here.
Most of it was copied and pasted from the Red Terror article, with no indication in most cases whether any of the stuff mentioned happened to any of the persons beatified (where there is a connection, I have kept it).
The "Background" section gives figures for the period as a whole, not specifically to the 498, and refers in detail to the dioceses of Barbastro, Lleida, Tortosa and Toledo and Malaga, none of which are mentioned in the Introduction as places where the 498 came from.
The "Individual fates" section does the same, and where it refers to events in Barcelona, Madrid and Cuidad Real it does so without saying to whom they happened, or whether they were among the 498. It refers specifically to the Bishop of Jaen (who was Manuel Basulto Jimenez), whose cause is still awaiting consideration by the CCS, and to the bishop of Almeria (Diego Ventaja Milan), who was beatified in 1993.
The "Controversy" section copied verbatim from the source as well as being on the Red Terror page. It refers to Fulgencio Martinez, who is not one of the 498, and to “another priest of Lorca” who could be almost anybody, but is definitely not one of these, as Lorca is not in any of the dioceses listed. Also to Rigoberto Domenich, and to Eijo Garay, who were not killed during the Terror at all, and who are not even proposed for beatification. However I’ve left Cruz Laplana Laguna, who was one of the 498, and also Gabino Olasa Zabala, who was a companion of Avelino Rodriguez Alonso ( though the source given for the accusation against him is sparse, to say the least.
I’ve re-written the "Individual fates" section to be more about the individuals, and I’ve re-phrased the "Background" section to go from the general to the particular, rather than the other way around.
In short I've tried to make it more about the people it is supposed to be about, and less of a right/left controversy article.
I trust that is OK with everyone. Moonraker12 (talk) 20:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

(The section "Individual cases" was tagged for neutrality without explanation; this was removed and challenged. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC))

I thought that the reason I tagged the following text with NPOV was self-telling:

The 498 martyrs include bishops, priests, male and female religious and faithful of both sexes. Three were 16 years old and the oldest was 78. They were from all parts of Spain, [...]. Although Spain was the site of their martyrdom and the homeland of many of them, there were also some who came from other nations, from France, Mexico and Cuba. They were men and women who were faithful to their obligations, and who were able to forgive their killers. Cruz Laplana Laguna, the bishop of Cuenca, wrote I cannot go, only here is my responsibility, whatever may happen, while Fr. Tirso de Jesús María, a companion of Eusebio Fernandez Arenillas, wrote in the letter sent to his family on the eve of his execution: "Pardon them and bless them and amen to everything, just as I love them and pardon them and bless them.....".

The phrasing is simply not encyclopedic and neutral, but more suitable for an obituary: "religious and faithful"; "Spain was the site of their martyrdom"; "men and women who were faithful to their obligations, and who were able to forgive their killers". It sounds like taken verbatim from the source (which is, quote, "never a good idea") titled "MASS FOR THE BEATIFICATION OF 498 MARTYRS", which cannot be regarded as neutral. Not that I question its accuracy (although its bias is obvious), but the wording should certainly be changed. No such user (talk) 14:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
No, neutrality tags are seldom self-explanatory, and without an explanation generally seen as merely expressing an opinion. But if you are unhappy with the wording, perhaps you’d like to suggest some alternative?
As for the comments, I didn't write this section, so I don't have a big investment in it, but it looked OK to me before. Specifically:
  • "religious and faithful": Religious, and faithful, are technical terms; would some links help?
  • "Spain was the site of their martyrdom": Well, they did die in Spain, and they were beatified as martyrs; what do you think it should say?
  • "faithful...able to forgive...": And they are described as forgiving their killers etc in the source; would you prefer that caveat, with it rendered as a quote?
Also, there’s no bar on sources that have a point of view, the aim of NPOV is to provide a balance, by (for example) offering other sources that have a different view. If you have evidence the statements made about these cases were untrue (I did take some pains a while ago to remove statements that were untrue, or biased) then bring them to the discussion.
It's worth saying, though, this section is on individual cases; the article already has a controversy section that looks at the wider issues involved here. I'd have thought that provides balance enough. Moonraker12 (talk) 11:56, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
PS: Another thought; Cruz Laplana Laguna is mentioned in the Controversy section as well; is it worth moving the comments about him in the Cases section to there? Moonraker12 (talk)
Should the Spanish reactions and controversy be merged in one Reactions and controversy section? --Javierme (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Title[edit]

The article suggests that the RC Church prefers the wording Martyrs of Spain, since they were killed in Spain, but some came from other countries. Should we move the article from 498 Spanish Martyrs to 498 Martyrs of Spain? --Javierme (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2014 (UTC)