Talk:HIV/AIDS

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Lead[edit]

The lead says "AIDS is considered a pandemic", this should be rephrased as "HIV/AIDS is considered a pandemic", which is the expression that's also used in the given source. The point is that not all HIV-positive people will progress to AIDS. We should really be careful not to mix up the two terms in this article. Can someone change this please, as I am unable to edit the article. Chakalacka (talk) 18:05, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done -- Scray (talk) 18:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Since we are already at it, this sentence in the Virology section should also be fixed: "HIV is the cause of the spectrum of disease known as HIV/AIDS.". It just doesn't make sense. Maybe "HIV is the cause of the disease known as AIDS." or perhaps "HIV is the cause of a spectrum of diseases known as AIDS." Chakalacka (talk) 18:38, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
There is also "acute HIV" which is a disease caused by the HIV virus. So I think it is okay the way it is. The spectrum is HIV/AIDS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:46, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Has "acute HIV" actually been characterized/defined as a disease? I'm not a doc but I am wondering. Either way, I feel that the current sentence in a nutshell says "HIV is the cause of HIV" and somehow that seems more confusing than clarifying. Chakalacka (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes it is a disease. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2014[edit]

27.124.18.34 (talk) 13:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

What actually? Noteswork (talk) 13:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

"These" versus "The vast majority of these"[edit]

Disagreement with this edit that I wanted to discuss rather than just revert.

The full phrase in question, with the disputed part bolded, is:

A small group of individuals continue to dispute the connection between HIV and AIDS,[228] the existence of HIV itself, or the validity of HIV testing and treatment methods.[229][230] The vast majority of these claims, known as AIDS denialism, have been examined and rejected by the scientific community.

As it looks now, it is implied that there exist some disputes about HIV and its relationship with AIDS that have been examined and accepted. This is most certainly not the case: EVERY such denialist claim that has been investigated has been rejected, quite firmly. While "These claims" is technically imprecise, it does not give a false impression and is significantly more correct. Thoughts? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 15:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it to say that all denialist claims are answered. There are not any reliable sources presenting unanswered denialist claims. There is no controversy in the scientific or medical community. Anyone who wishes to state otherwise should present a source making a claim which has not been answered. So far as I know, by the late 1990s the debates had resolved in the scientific and medical communities, and no claims have been made since then. See Wikipedia's guide to reliable sources for medicine for information about how to present medical claims. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
What we had before which was "These claims" was perfectly clear. Thus restored to that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Removing very odd opinion from lead.[edit]

People are free to their opinions but I don't think they are needed in this Wikipedia article. I will be removing the line "The disease has also become subject to many controversies involving religion." Considering most people on the planet are religious, and most have different views of all subject matter, anything could be "subject to many controversies involving religion".Mantion (talk) 06:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

It's not an opinion or odd, and it's in the lead because it summarizes significant aspects of the article...per WP:Lead. Flyer22 (talk) 06:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes there have been some controversies revolving around organized religion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Congenital HIV/AIDS infection[edit]

No article on it. Surprised. Anyone smart?

How, exactly, does a newborn with HIV differ substantially from someone who contracts the virus later in life? Can you refer editors to reliable, third-party sources that detail the differences? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:16, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
It's described in the article, I don't see why it should be a separate article, and your comment is unsigned. Χρυσάνθη Λυκούση (talk) 19:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Red ribbon[edit]

Consider it a better image for the lead. Thus restored. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks appropriate. Χρυσάνθη Λυκούση (talk) 20:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) DavidLeighEllis (talk) 04:53, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


HIV/AIDSAIDSWP:MEDMOS#Article titles states that "The article title should be the scientific or recognised medical name that is most commonly used in recent, high-quality, English-language medical sources, rather than a lay term." Therefore it seems apparent that AIDS should be the title of this article, since the number of PubMed hits for AIDS far exceeds that of HIV/AIDS (219,347 vs. 23313). [1] [2] Jinkinson talk to me 03:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: See these two past discussions about the HIV/AIDS title: Talk:HIV/Archive 6#Merge of HIV and AIDS article into a single article called HIV/AIDS and Talk:HIV/AIDS/Archive 21#Article title. I'm weighing out of this discussion; I don't care as much as I used to about whether this article is titled AIDS or HIV/AIDS. The HIV/AIDS title has grown on me. Flyer22 (talk) 04:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Information: The searches above are inaccurate in that
A: the AIDS search contains all HIV/AIDS results. The following searches produced the listed number of results:
B:The second inaccuracy is that the search for "AIDS" is definitely picking up a large quantity of articles where the text "AIDS" is only found in either a category or a reference. Without significant further limitation, the numbers are inappropriate to use as a basis to compare the prevalence of usage levels between AIDS and HIV/AIDS. Filtering for use of the terms only in the title or abstract provides the following results:
The numbers when filtered for only searching for the text in the title or abstract show a much less lopsided usage of the two terms. Further, the numbers show a significant shift towards the use of HIV/AIDS instead of just AIDS on a percentage basis.
— Makyen (talk) 08:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes we must make sure we do not let google countitis infect us. Having made 604 edits to this article [3] and having read all the major guidelines while bringing this page to GA it is clear what is the most commonly accepted term. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Very strong oppose WHO uses HIV/AIDS. Thus I oppose. AIDS is the older term. HIV/AIDS is the newer term. This article is NOT just about AIDS which has a specific definition. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:46, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
This is the leading global publication on the subject [4] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Ironically, Jmh649, the WHO report linked above uses "AIDS" 249 times and "HIV/AIDS" only 185--which seems to provide more support for my proposed move than support for keeping the current title. IOW, "WHO uses HIV/AIDS" is a bit misleading, since while the report is entitled Global HIV/AIDS Response, the document seems to prefer dropping the "HIV/" to using it. Jinkinson talk to me 19:24, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Have you looked at the terms in question? What terms are picked up for AIDS? UNAIDS is one that occurs on nearly every page. But most importantly AIDS is a subgroup of HIV/AIDS which is the continuum of disease caused by HIV. This article is not about just the one part, AIDS it is about the whole continue of disease. We need to use an understanding of the literature and a reading of the sources not a simple counting of terms. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Do you have a reliable source that supports your argument, which seems to be that HIV causes a continuum of disease, HIV/AIDS, of which AIDS is but one part? Also, while the argument that major medical bodies refer to it as HIV/AIDS definitely has merit, I still think it's a bit confusing to have an article whose title consists of the name of a virus and a "continuum of disease" caused by it. Since I am now on the fence about what this page's title should actually be, I will let the rest of this RM play out until a consensus is (or isn't) reached. Jinkinson talk to me 23:54, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Read the "signs and symptoms" section of the article. When we state the number of people with HIV this is different than the number of people with AIDS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

"Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes HIV infection and AIDS."[5]. We could change the title of the article to HIV infection and AIDS but the current title is a more common abbreviation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:19, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. The article treats two related syndromes, HIV infection (before it manifests as AIDS) and AIDS. You can't replace the current title with the name of just one of those things. I would have no objection to Doc James's HIV infection and AIDS, however. But HIV/AIDS is widely used, and I don't think it causes any confusion.- Nunh-huh 01:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose The name HIV/AIDS is used by some reliable sources so it is appropriate. Beyond that, PubMed hits alone do not constitute enough of an argument for change. Blue Rasberry (talk) 03:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose there is a specific definition of AIDS, which refers to a subset of people who have HIV. A sentence incorporated into the lead explaining this difference may address Jinkinson's concerns/confusion, such as "AIDS is used to refer to individuals affected by HIV based on their symptoms or the levels of virus found in their blood". --LT910001 (talk) 07:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose There does not appear to be a good argument for moving the page. The current article name is "the scientific or recognised medical name" for what is covered in the article. AIDS is a subset of that. Which of the two "HIV/AIDS" and "AIDS" is actually most common in articles at this time has not been clearly determined. The numbers above indicate that it is reasonably close. "AIDS" is too short of a search term to be able to indicate solely by the numeric quantity of results for a search that it is more prevalent. Further, given that it is a subset of HIV/AIDS, it is quite possible that substantial quantities of articles are using the term to accurately describe just the subset. In addition, it is clear the trend is toward increasing use of the "HIV/AIDS" term. — Makyen (talk) 23:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose The term AIDS was around for almost a decade before HIV was accepted as its causative agent, and it is only in the last 15 years that HIV/AIDS has begun to supplant AIDS; that is why there are so many more references to AIDS. HIV/AIDS is the correct name and should remain the name of this article. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edit suggestion[edit]

In the "acute infection" section, "a rash, headache, and/or sores of the mouth and genitals" can be improved in its English language usage by changing it to "a rash, headache, or sores of the mouth and genitals". (see also Swan's book Practical English Usage for the correct use of and and or). Χρυσάνθη Λυκούση (talk) 20:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Sure Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:19, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories etc edit[edit]

Editor ShawntheGod added "Some people dispute the scholars consensus about the origins of HIV" to the page (see this edit for its context) without adding any references, in what appears to be a sentence where it makes no sense. I reverted, thinking it was vandalism, and wrote in my edit summary "rv point that made no sense in that locatino and is already made at the start of the para". The editor reverted my revert, saying "no it doesn't, it says "a small group of people continue to dispute the connection between HIV and AIDS", not the same thing", which seems to me to miss the point. Anyway, I have reverted them a second time, and suggested they take it up here. If anyone else has a different view, please raise it. Thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to make a section. As we all know some people out there aren't adherents of the scholar consensus of origins of HIV/AIDS. Even the Soviets themselves weren't believers of the scholarly consensus. I simply added some information in front of that to go along with that part and no citation was needed because one is already there to substantiate my sentence that says "Surveys show that a significant number of people believed – and continue to believe – in such claims." which affirms my editorial about how some people dispute the scholar consensus of HIV/AIDS. ShawntheGod (talk) 06:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The edit in that location does not make sense, and a new section would represent undue weight on fringe views. But you could post a proposal here and see what others think. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

How does it not make sense? Seems completely harmonious with the conspiracy section. ShawntheGod (talk) 07:00, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The edit in question is ungrammatical and a little vague, but it does raise the issue that this article does not discuss or link to Discredited HIV/AIDS origins theories, as distinct from AIDS denialism. Based on that article, there have been multiple conspiracy theories independent of the Soviet propaganda. Perhaps the section hatnote should be changed to
and a short summary sentence could be added before the sentence about INFEKTION, something along the lines of "Several discredited conspiracy theories have held that HIV was created by scientists, either inadvertently or deliberately." Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 10:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Come to think of it, the survey mentioned at the end of HIV/AIDS#Denial, conspiracies concerns conspiracies, not denial. It might be clearer to split the section into two paragraphs – the first about denial, the second about conspiracies. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 11:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Happy with Adrian's suggestion. People do not believe all sorts of stuff. Not sure the extra text is due weight on this page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:35, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

"concerns conspiracies, not denial."

Seems like it could be focusing on both, the denial of HIV's true genesis and a belief against the scholar consensus, a conspiracy theory belief or whatever. I think it's not necessary to split the denials and conspiracy theories into two separate sections because they can kinda be quite cognate with one another. ShawntheGod (talk) 12:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, I'm suggesting two short paragraphs within one section. It would look like this:
Denialism and conspiracy theories are certainly related, but I think this structure makes it clearer that the examples we mention have distinct foundations. (The South African deaths were the result of denial that HIV causes AIDS, whereas INFEKTION concerned HIV's origin, and wouldn't even make sense if HIV did not cause AIDS.) Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 14:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Looks good. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:37, 12 April 2014 (UTC)


I concur, looks good, no problem here. ShawntheGod (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Doc James and ShawntheGod. I've edited the article accordingly. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 12:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Looks good, likewise, thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Origins[edit]

I read an interesting book, 'Elephants on Acid: And Other Bizarre Experiments', part of which is given up to the history of transplant, transfusion and hybridization. A great deal of this work was carried out in the early half of the 20th century. Once such case being that of Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov, who saw possible benefits to the creation of a human / ape hybrid. The alleged date and location of his attempts to create his hybrid correspond relatively well with those identified as the origin of SIV's crossover into humans. With crossover being so unlikely from the consumption of SIV infected meat alone, there being such a high risk during transfusion, the level of interest in transfusion and lack of knowledge regarding it during this period, it seems at least plausible that crossover may have occurred as the result of such research efforts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.228.206.161 (talk)

Perhaps, but please be aware that Wikipedia cannot publish original research. (New threads go down the bottom of the page.) Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 22:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


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