Talk:Abbey of Saint Gall

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UNESCO World Heritage Site
Abbey of Saint Gall
Name as inscribed on the World Heritage List
Cathedral of St Gall
Type Cultural
Criteria ii, iv
Reference 268
UNESCO region Europe
Inscription history
Inscription 1983 (7th Session)

Confusion between Fürstabtei and Stiftskirche[edit]

This article created a terrible confusion by lumping together the Abbey of St. Gall (German: Fürstabtei St. Gallen), a large ecclesiastical principality that existed for several centuries, and the abbey church built in the 1750s and located in the town of St. Gallen (German: Stiftskirche St. Gallen).

As the core of the article shows, this article is about the state, and not the famous church building. I tried to eliminate the confusion by changing the lead and deleting the infobox on the church (I will try to add more info soon). Any article focusing on the church building as such could benefit from the German Wikipedia article titled "Stiftskirche St. Gallen" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiftskirche_St._Gallen). --Lubiesque (talk) 17:30, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but you introduced a worse error, as the whole abbey and cathedral are the UNESCO World Heritage Site. I'm rather neutral as to whether the WHS infobox should return, but it should probably be below the other one. It is perfectly legitimate to treat both in the same article. It should not be called a "convent" however - UNESCO doesn't do this. Johnbod (talk) 18:16, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Only one remark: WHS often uses strange names, and I don't think we are obliged to follow. Examples: Weimar City Palace. (City? Palace?) In Hildesheim: St. Mary's Cathedral. No, it's Cathedral of the Assumption of Mary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:26, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Pardon me to intervene, but most of the original text was correct. Let me explain:
  • An Abtei (Abbey) is a special kind of monastery, namley one with an Abt (abbot).
  • Secondly, in German, but I think in English this is also valid, a Kloster (monastery) can be used for any or all (!) of the following meanings: its summary of buildings and ground, or only its main building where the monchs live, or especially also its controlled and owned territory, or its political body, if you like, but those times it was a synonym anyhow! What is meant derives from the context. ... finally, the term monastery/abbey etc stands for all pof the articular meanings at the same time, including its history (!), even if the politcal part has been disappeared in the mean time! ;-) ... In liguistics, it is called homonyms, a linguistic construct we have thounsands of them and use them tacitly many times during a day.
  • Saint Gall or St Gall is the real and correct English transation of the German "St. Gallen", even though the touristic powers in Switzerland now (about since 2008) promote most Swiss cities with their local spellings! *grrrrh*
  • First of all, it was only a monastery (612-747)
  • Then it became a abbey (747)
  • Then it bacame also an Reichsabtei (imperial abbey, first half of ninth century, in steps: 818 (imperial immunity), 833 (right to choose its abbot), 854 (released from the obligation to pay tithes to the Bishop of Constance))
  • In 1207 the Abt (abbot) was called for the first time a Fürstabt (princely abbot), that means that he was also a Fürst (not a Prinz) of the Reich (Empire), and therefore the abbey was now also a Fürstabtei (princely abbey). And it still was also a Reichsabtei (imperial abbey).
  • But since the 17th century, the abbey has not not anymore been called with these imperial registers.
  • Nowadways, it is still commonly called the "Kloster St. Gallen" (Abbey of St Gall), even though in 1805 the abbey was dissolved.
  • More modestly, they speak about the Stiftsabtei, or simply refer to the Stift St. Gallen. Therefore the remaining ground and buildings and institutions, respectively, are called Stiftsbezirk (abbey precincts), or the church, since 1836 a cathedral, is also called Stiftskirche, or Stiftskathedrale (after 1838!), or just Kathedrale, and the library Stiftsbibliothek, and the archive the Stiftsarchiv in German. ... But not consistently ;-) The political body just call it the Abbey St Gall. The religious ones probably want to emphasize its special meaning by adding Reichs-, Fürst-, or Stifts- ... :-))
BTW: ... Never trust any wikimedia text, not even the ones of the local language! LOL
The simplest way is to stick with the Abbey of St Gall. Period. Anything else can be mentioned in the text body.
See also: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]
-- Cheers, ZH8000 (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

@User talk:Lubiesque: Please stop messing up things which were obvious and considered until now! It's obvious that a monastery has a history. And most European monasteries have a history in the past where they owned and sometimes even ruled a smaller (the samllest one would be only the territory of the monastery itself) or larger part of land and people in the past (perhaps some do even noadays). So it is no surprise at all (to the literate reader–otherweise he will learn by reading) that you will find such an explanation about a past principality. Therefore the template used for the Princely Abbey is called Template:Infobox '''former''' country and is part of the history paragraph (and must not be part of the lead)! Please, please, do stop messing up everything that is clear to the majority. Thanks!!! --> I will undo your last two edits.

  • I repeat, the WHS is the whole abbey complex, including the Cathedral. Please get this right. The lead should also mention that the abbey church is now the cathedral. Johnbod (talk) 05:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)