Talk:Abortion-rights movements

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Closed as consensus to not move as per WP:SNOW and the obvious POV issues with this title. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:42, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Abortion-rights movementsPro-abortion movements – This is a new article, discussing the abortion debate globally, rather just in the USA. The problem is what the title should be. The American article is United States pro-choice movement, but "pro-choice" seems to be an American euphemism. The most neutral and global title seems to be "pro-abortion". For example, see Pro-abortion activists rally in Argentina and Pro-abortion group fined in mainstream media outlets in Australia. Unfortunately, the article creator has already attacked me personally for even suggesting such a title. But the evidence suggests "pro-abortion" is both the most common and the most neutral designation. It also corresponds to the companion article also created recently, Anti-abortion movements (not "pro-life movements"). StAnselm (talk) 05:31, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

  • Strongest conceivable oppose. Seriously, we just managed to, against all odds, close WP:RFC/AAMC with a sensible and balanced result, and within 8 hours we have over-the-top POV pushing on the international articles refactored as a result? We couldn't take a break from that for an entire day? Unbelievable. So, yeah, okay. Describing movements in support of legal access to abortion as "pro-abortion" -- that is, in favor of abortion itself rather than against having the option forcibly taken away -- is a spectacular violation of WP:NPOV, designed as political propaganda, a demonization tactic that is anathema to everything Wikipedia stands for. So no, not neutral. And the assertion that this terminology is more common in the global media is, besides not being demonstrated by two cherry-picked links, a febrile, self-serving and transparent lie, as easily demonstrated by actual research, such as that below:
Abortion-rights movement Abortion-rights Pro-abortion movement Pro-abortion Sources
Google Books 11,000 233,000 2,540 50,900 [1] [2] [3] [4]
Google Scholar 573 21,100 180 4,880 [5] [6] [7] [8]
Google News Archive 7 10,900 6 2,100 [9] [10] [11] [12]
As we can see, the language the current title is based on is five times more common than the propagandist construction proposed. This POV-pushing nonsense, while nice for a break due to its hilarious self-caricature, does not have any place whatsoever on Wikipedia. The end. —chaos5023 (talk) 05:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Please, leave off the personal attacks. StAnselm (talk) 06:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I note the lack of specificity, which makes sense given that all my extremely irritated and disgusted language is reserved for your actions as a Wikipedia editor, not yourself as a person. —chaos5023 (talk) 06:18, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
That is absolute rubbish. You have described my requested move as a "demonization tactic", and called my assertion a "a febrile, self-serving and transparent lie". "Self-serving" is a comment on the contributor. Comment on content, not on the contributor. It is ridiculous to suggest that this does not include comments on people "as editors". If you are so irritated and disgusted can't discuss this topic sensibly and calmly, you should withdraw. StAnselm (talk) 06:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
WP:SPADE. —chaos5023 (talk) 06:28, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose this article is not about pro-abortion movements, it is about abortion rights movements. I don't seen anything about eugenics or population control here. And there have been abortion movements based on those stands in the past. "opening access to abortions movements" would work as a different name (a descriptive name). -- 70.24.186.245 (talk) 07:52, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose, analysis of the reliable independent secondary sources shows prevalence of term usage as current title of the page, therefore should not be moved, but redirects to this page title are cheap. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 17:22, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Of course not - what a ridiculous time-wasting proposal to destroy accuracy and make WP into a propaganda engine. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 03:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and speedy close - and really surprised, StAnselm is usually a sensible editor. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose and permanently topic-ban the nom. --213.196.209.251 (talk) 04:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
    It is not sufficient to topic ban someone for making a poor suggestion. A simple oppose or support, with reasons is enough, and the discussion will run its course and be closed soon enough. Often RM's are closed with a single support or oppose, and six to one, with valid reasoning, is sufficient to insure that this page will not be moved. Note to proposer, everyone is anti-abortion, no one is pro-abortion, just like everyone is anti-cancer or anti-falling into a river, or anti-getting run over by a car, but that does not stop people from being in favor of actions that lead to cancer, falling in a river or getting run over (going to the beach, kayaking, and crossing streets). Some people and some countries use abortion as a normal and accepted form of birth control. Some people abhor abortion as if it was some sort of plague, and think that anyone who obtains one is certain to go to someplace not nice. And abortion is one of the most hotly argued topics on Wikipedia, with editors of both viewpoints participating, until they get out of control and get topic banned. Apteva (talk) 06:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
It is not sufficient to topic ban someone for making a poor suggestion -- "Making a poor suggestion"? How about turning right around after a grueling RFC and forumshop to make a point and to aggressively and openly push a POV? --87.79.47.181 (talk) 07:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Believe me, I'm as irritated as you, but however we construct the situation it wouldn't be reasonable to topic-ban StAnselm based on it. Topic bans are extreme measures that cope with prolonged and intractable patterns of disruptive behavior, and even if this incident were much more disruptive than it is (it's a waste of all our time and stress-management capacity, but we're big kids, we can handle it), it wouldn't demonstrate a pattern of anything. —chaos5023 (talk) 15:22, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It is inconceivable that anyone could seriously think this to be a neutral descriptor. Many abortion-rights advocates are anti-abortion. Powers T 18:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Expanding (and some contracting) article[edit]

I've posted about this on that article's talk page, but now that United States pro-choice movement has been determined to have as its scope the United States and renamed accordingly, there is more general material there that should probably be moved or copied here. (Also from Abortion debate, although there's also less material there than there ought to be.) This should be the article where we discuss general philosophy behind the position, any forms of activism or historical facts that can be generalized across countries, ..., ... As well, I recommend removing unnecessary information about the legal status of abortion where it does not serve as context for the activities of pro-choice/abortion rights groups. There are other articles on the legality of abortion by country. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 03:23, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I generally concur, except that I would argue that all of the "movement" articles should be very light on general philosophy, with the bulk of material on the points of debate going in Abortion debate, Abortion in the United States, Ethical aspects of abortion and so on. This helps avoid the "dueling POVFORKs" situation where each of the two "opposed" articles winds up becoming a polemic for the position of its topic. —chaos5023 (talk) 03:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
That's a good point. Would you agree though that covering abortion-rights movements does ask that we include some discussion of their reasoning, even if the main debate is in another article? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, absolutely. I envision something like the usual Wikipedia "summary section with a {{Main}} crossreference" convention. —chaos5023 (talk) 04:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Maintain focus[edit]

I see I've posted about this before, but we should be making an effort to keep this article focused on movements, not simply on the legal status of abortion in these various countries. How did it come about that abortion was legalized in Iran and Japan (to take the recently added material as an example, though similar issues exist in other sections) - through the efforts of pro-choice advocates? That is what's in the scope of the article, really. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 16:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Name NPOV?[edit]

I honestly don't know what the answer to this question is, but calling this Abortion-rights movements, while we call the Pro-Life counterpart page 'Anti-Abortion movements' seems like we're breaking with NPOV and COMMONNAME, aren't we? Shouldn't they be 'Pro-Life Movements' and 'Pro-Choice' Movements? 72.224.172.14 (talk) 14:44, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Getting to the current names took an unbelievably long discussion-consensus process: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abortion article titlesRoscelese (talkcontribs) 17:27, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Ahh, I see. I assumed that there's been one of those, so thanks for the link! 72.224.172.14 (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome! –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 07:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)