Talk:Active measures

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Article should include...[edit]

This article should probably include examples of active measures conducted by KGB and FSB. Biophys 04:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

So, I started the list of examples. A lot more should be written here. Biophys 01:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Good job. Only I have two questions about the title.
    • First, is it a commonly accepted term in the West?
    • Second, is the term applied only to the USSR? `'mikka 02:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be rather well accepted. See for example book by Cristopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, page 292. They call it "political warfare". "Active measures" are also widely used in other books about KGB. The expression indeed came from "Soviet phraseology". Biophys 04:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolute nonsense. Are Vasiliy Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew (his book cowriter) represent the whole Western Civilisation on that issue?. Second there is no such thing as "Soviet phraseology".Vlad fedorov 10:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a common phrase in western thought although it is used interchangebly with "disinformation" at times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.76.89.7 (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Reverting recent edits by an unregistered user[edit]

My point here is very simple. I am not doing any original research or promote my own opinion. I only cite sources (as we all suppose to do), and these sources or people are very good experts and prominent enough, since they are described in Wikipedia. Any alternative views are very welcome, if supported by similar sources, but one should not simply delete the text supported by references. If an Internet link is dead, please mark this as {{Fact}} and wait for a few days until I can repair the reference. Again, we are not proving anything here; we are not judges in the court. We only summarize information from other sources. Biophys 19:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact you do promote your personal opinion that FSB and other stuff are secret police. By doing so you do also original research, for you don't have reliable sources stating that all these organization are a secret police. Ion Macepa should be properly indentified as an author of his allegaitions - that the sorrow consequence of you contributing only from one POV source.Vlad fedorov 05:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Vlad Fedorov edits[edit]

You modified my text: Active Measures (Russian: "Активные мероприятия") are a form of political warfare conducted by the Soviet intelligence services (Cheka, OGPU, NKVD, KGB, GRU, FSB, and SVR) allegedly to influence a course of world events.

But this is not a claim or accusation. This is definition: what is the "active measures"? So, you misled the reader. Of course these "measures" tremendously influenced the course of word events (all historians agree). That was a success of KGB. I must revert this. Biophys 05:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ion Macepa is not a historian, but a former spy who has his POV published.Vlad fedorov 05:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Clean up & a few remarks[edit]

Clean-up is really needed. Beside articles missing (the FSB, etc.), the article confuses everything, mixing operations in the 1920s with Chechnya ! I know that there are continuities from the Tsarist Russia to modern Russia, passing by the USSR, but that's not a reason to jump from the 1920s to the 2000s and back to the 1960s... Beside, as Vlad Fedorov notes immediately above, Ion Macepa is famous for being unreliable. So, when he claims that he heard Ceaucescu, another trustworthful source, to have said that Moscow had planned to... this is enough to suscite some questions. Although there are clearly no doubts that Moscow has engaged in such operations, as well as Washington and all intelligence agencies, over-simplification on the pretexts of ideological struggle is like shooting oneself in the foot. Beside, I am most intrigued about this "reference": Yossef Bodansky The Secret History of the Iraq War (Notes: The historical record). Regan Books, 2005, ISBN 0-060-73680-1, concerning events in the 1940s in Central Asia and the Ukrainian nationalist army. What's the relationship? Could the page be cited, and could we have a quote here on talk page? Finally, as a note, Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Provide context for the reader and WP:CONTEXT will be useful readings. Thanks, however, for the article! Tazmaniacs 13:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This part of Bodansky book (Notes: The historical record) describes active measures by KGB. I think you are right, and this part of Bodansky book must be explained better and more prominently in this article. As about history, this is exactly the point: the tactics ("active measures") are very similar over the time. Please provide at least one example when Ion Macepa claimed anyting obviously wrong (supported by reliable sources). Only then one can claim that "Ion Macepa is famous for being unreliable". Otherwise, this is OR and POV. Biophys 14:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Claims by him that USSR has nurtured and sponsored virtually all terrorists in the world. Unevidenced citations of KGB and USSR political leaders by Macepa, who was just a Romanian (periphery) bureaucrat, and wasn't a member of a general task force. He claims he had an access to all KGB information which render him as a clown at once. Nobody, nobody could say that he knows everything about KGB, CIA, FBI, MI5 and so on. It is just stupid. For intelligence agencies, at least...Vlad fedorov 19:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I may have moved too fast, but I'm not sure what "well poisoning" I did. Let's go slowly: do we agree that we need to chronologically divide this article, and that it has no sense starting in the 1920s, then jumping to the 2000s, then going back to the 1950s, to finally end back in the 2000s? Shouldn't we clearly separate 1920s, Cold War, and FSB period? This article really needs clean-up... Tazmaniacs 04:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Italian Mitrokhin allegations[edit]

I made a subsection for these claims reviving teh "Bulgarian connection" theory about Mehmet Ali Agca. Please see the Italian Mitrokhin Commission article and debate about the article over there. Tazmaniacs 04:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This is article about "active measures", not about Mitrokhin or Pacepa.Biophys 00:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainian insurgent army and the Iraq War[edit]

What is the relationship between the claims about the Ukrainien insurgent army and the Iraq War? The source given is that one: Yossef Bodansky The Secret History of the Iraq War (Notes: The historical record). Regan Books, 2005, ISBN 0-060-73680-1, concerning events in the 1940s in Central Asia and the Ukrainian nationalist army. What's the relationship? Could the page be cited, and could we have a quote here on talk page? See WP:CS please. Tazmaniacs 04:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see pages with title: "Notes: The historical record" (in the end of the book). It is written right there. I will include this material in the article more prominently when time allows. Biophys 00:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Macepa's allegations[edit]

They should be presented for what they are: allegations. Macepa and Ceaucescu are not the more reliable sources you can think of. His declarations and conspiracy theories that liberation national movement would have not existed without the KGB must be toned down; even if they have 1% truth, explaining decolonization by conspiracy theories is a quite interesting view of history. Tazmaniacs 04:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

National Review Online is a perfectly reliable source according to Wikipedia criteria. If you have any other reliable sources that tell about Soviet "active measures" (rather than about Mitrokhin) - you are welcome to cite them here. No one tells that liberation national movement would have not existed without the KGB; I only cite exactly what sources say. Biophys 00:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to criticism[edit]

After all, I can agree with you that parts about promotion of terrorism and assassinations could be improved. More sources should be cited (there are numerous publications on this subject). I will try to improve this as time allows. Biophys 00:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

So, I included more material from Bodansky book.Biophys 05:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

For all know-it-all's here[edit]

Read http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/31/060731fa_fact?printable=true Vlad fedorov 05:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Puppet rebel forces in Russia[edit]

It was not written anywhere that all Chechen rebels are "puppet forces". Certainly, they are not! The 15 sources claim that only some of them have been controlled by FSB, GRU (or perhaps were not Chechen at all), just as during Basmachi revolt and other events. Biophys 15:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Which sources state these facts? Delirium of Litvinenko would count as fact? He already wrote that Russia is responsible for September 11th attacks, which is cowardly disguised from his article, because it makes him a clown. Allegations of cold war veteran David Satter? Allegations of Beresovsky slave Sergei Yushenkov who has bought his position in Duma and wasn't elected really? Basaev never worked for GRU - it suffices to look at his biography in Wikipedia.Vlad fedorov 05:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I cite perfectly reliable and multiple sources that say: Basaev worked for GRU during certain period of his life (probably he stopped working for GRU after loosing his leg on minefields near Grozny). If you have any good sources that say: "No, Basaev did not worked for GRU" - you can cite them. But you can not delete my text supported by good sources simply because you personally disagree with these sources and believe that notable persons who wrote them are "clowns", "slaves", or "bought his position in Duma", as you say.Biophys 15:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Boiphys, if you would live in Russia, you would know more about it. And you would know, that it is possible to buy place in Russian parlament. It's just cost alot.--Oleg Str (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

New sources?[edit]

I used just a few sources here. There is enormous literature about "active measures", and I can bring it here if necessary.Biophys 15:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC) How about that:

Active measures include white, gray, and black propaganda, as well as disinformation. White propaganda was created by the Information Department of the Communist Party and included those publicly identified Soviet channels as Radio Moscow, Novosti, and pamphlets and magazines as well as official Soviet government statements. Gray propaganda was organized by the International Department of the Communist Party and used such channels as the foreign Communist Parties and the network of international Soviet fronts. Black propaganda was prepared by the KGB and included agents of influence, covert media placements, and until 1959, assassinations. Forgeries and disinformation were used by the Soviets in all modes. The first effective disinformation campaign was during the Korean Conflict. This was a major Soviet disinformation campaign that generated media attention. The Americans were accused of going into Korean villages during the Korean conflict (1950–1953) and shooting villagers, or killing them with biological weapons and chemical warfare. In fact, the Soviets used anthrax in Korea to kill men, women, and children, and then blamed it on the Americans.

An attempt is now underway with the Cold War History Project at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Smithsonian Institution, in Washington, DC, to counter this account, especially through the work of Katherine Weathersby who discovered that Soviet documents obtained through a Japanese researcher belied these rumors and accusations. The issue re-surfaced in the book United States and Biological Weapons: Secrets of the Early Cold War and Korea (Indiana University Press, 1999) by Stephen Endicott and Edward Hagerman. Endicott was the son of one of the men who helped to disseminate the disinformation campaign, James Endicott.

On September 9, 1982, President Ronald Reagan designated the United States Information Agency to lead an inter-departmental effort to counter Soviet propaganda and disinformation. For an advisory body, the administration created the Active Measures Working Group in 1981 to bring together the information the various agencies held to counter Soviet disinformation and forgery. It served as a clearinghouse to expose such information and it had permission to use classified documents and any other resources that were required to meet this goal. The Working Group was chaired by the State Department with representatives from State, Central Intelligence Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, United States Information Agency, and the Defense and Justice Departments. The Working Group ended in 1991, two years after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Bittmann, Ladislav. The KGB and Soviet Disinformation. Washington: Pergamon-Brassey's International Defense Publishers, 1985.

Romerstein, Herbert. Soviet Active Measures and Propaganda: "New Thinking" and Influence Activities in the Gorbachev Era. Toronto, Canada: Mackenzie Institute for the Study of Terrorism, Revolution, and Propaganda; Washington, D.C.: National Intelligence Book Center, 1989.

Shultz, Richard H., and Roy Godson, Dezinformatsia. Washington: Pergamon-Brassey's International Defense Publishers, 1984.

U.S. Congress. House. Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. Soviet Active Measures: Hearings. 97th Congress, 2d Session. Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1982.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Committee on Foreign Relations. Subcommittee on European Affairs. Soviet Active Measures: Hearings. 99th Congress, 1st Session. Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1985.

U.S. Department of State. Active Measures: A Report on the Substance and Process of Anti-U.S. Disinformation and Propaganda Campaigns. Washington, D.C.: The Department, 1986.

——. A Report on Active Measures and Propaganda, 1986–87. Washington, D.C.: The Department, 1987.

——. A Report on Active Measures and Propaganda, 1987–1988. Washington, D.C.: Department, 1989.

Periodicals

Douglass, Joseph D. "The Growing Disinformation Problem," International Security Review 4 (1981): 333–353.

Kux, Dennis. "Soviet Active Measures and Disinformation: Overview and Assessment," Parameters, Journal of the U.S. Army War College 15, no. 4: 19–28.

McDonnell, Sharon. "In From the Cold," American Journalism Review (June 1995): 16–17.

Romerstein, Herbert. "Disinformation as a KGB Weapon in the Cold War." Prepared for a Conference on Germany and Intelligence Organizations: The Last Fifty Years in Review, sponsored by Akademie fur Politische Bildung Tutzing, June 18–20, 1999.

Biophys 15:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

We must find a compromise[edit]

Let's talk. I have included all texts from our two different versions that are supported by references. Please tell me if any sourced text is missing, or if any particular source is unreliable in your opinion. Then, let's discuss the matter and decide. If the source is indeed unreliable according to official Wikipedia criteria, we will exclude the corresponding segment of text. But we can not simply delete large segments of text supported by references without any preliminary discussion. Biophys 01:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

So, I have included all referenced texts (also the fragment about Mitrokhin comission which I think is redundant) - to find a compromise. But you do not want to discuss anything and simply continue deleting all referenced texts, claiming that authors are "clowns" (in your opinion), etc. Biophys 15:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I am new to this dispute but I will have to go with Vlad, I mean how serious are you by using conspiracy theories to justify everything. Moscow Theatre seige was carried out by Movsar Barayev and was broadcast LIVE. How the hell could FSB have prepared it? Biophys your personal views on Russia and FSB are irrelevant and gross violation of WP:POINT. --Kuban Cossack 16:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Kuban Cossack. Thank you for coming here! This is fine if you disagree with a certain version of Moscow Theatre seige events. But you just have deleted A LOT of text and references about other events. So, I suggest the followig. Let's start from the complete text with all references. Then you tell here which exactly references you think are unreliable (for example, the reference to Litvinenko), and we discuss this first, and then delete if necessary the corresponding segment of text. I guess, you actually do not like that I cited ONLY references like Litvinenko. Then you are very welcome to bring any other additional references that say the opposite. So, we can do this in a "pro" and "contra" arguments style, rather than deleting perfectly appropriate references that someone simply do not like. I respect your opinion. Let's just discuss what exactly you do not like and correct, in accordance to Wikipedia policies. Biophys 21:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
You just said: "Undid revision 117540337 by Biophys (talk)bullshit conspiracy theories of Radio Free Europe and Stomakhin are not credible sources)" But these sources were about Moscow metro bombing, not about Moscow hostage theater crisis. I have checked these sources once again and can agree with you that the source with Stomakhin's article is indeed unreliable, and that Radio Free Europe article, although a reliable source, actually does not claim that Moscow metro bombing was organized by FSB. So, let's remove this. As about other sources in the same paragraph, they appear to be good. So, it would be appropriate just to cite an opposite point of view about Moscow theater crisis. You are welcome to do it.Biophys 22:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Puppet Rebel Forces in Russia[edit]

Biophys had made section based on rumors and allegations. Wikipedia is not a yellow press place. All information should be reliable and be based on facts, rather than allegations.Vlad fedorov 05:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia rules, the text must be based on reliable sources (see WP:RS). You just deleted the large portions of text supported by multiple reliable sources (see below).Biophys 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


Alleged vandalism by Vlad Fedorov[edit]

According to Wikipedia rules, the text must be based on reliable sources (see WP:RS). You just deleted the following text supported by reliable sources:

1. Soon after World War II, various ethnic militant groups in the Baltic States and Poland resisted Communist occupation. Many NKVD agents and coopting nationalist leaders were sent to join and penetrate the nationalist movements. Many puppet rebel forces were created by the NKVD and permitted to attack local Soviet authorities to gain credibility and exfiltrate senior NKVD agents to the West. [1]

2. That was a successful coup d'état organized by the FSB to bring Vladimir Putin to power, according to former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko, lawmaker Sergei Yushenkov, and journalist David Satter, a Johns Hopkins University and Hoover Institute scholar [2] [3] [4]. All attempts to independently investigate the Russian apartment bombings were unsuccessful. Journalist Artyom Borovik died in a suspicious plane crash. Vice-chairman of Sergei Kovalev commission created to investigate the bombings Sergei Yushenkov was assassinated. Another member of this commission Yuri Shchekochikhin died presumably from poisoning by thallium. Investigator Mikhail Trepashkin hired by relatives of victims was arrested and convicted by Russian authorities for allegedly disclosing state secrets. (this is supported by multiple reliable sources)

3. Another provocation designed to start the Second Chechen War and bring Vladimir Putin to power was possibly Dagestan War initiated by terrorist Shamil Basayev. It was reported that Alexander Voloshin from Yeltsin administration paid money to Basayev to stage the Dagestan War [5] [6] [7], that Basaev worked for Russian GRU at this time [8] [9](reference)

4. Former FSB officer Aleksander Litvinenko and investigator Mikhail Trepashkin alleged that Moscow theater hostage crisis was organized by Chechen FSB agents [10]. Yulia Latynina and other journalists accused FSB of staging many smaller terrorism acts, such as market place bombing in the city of Astrakhan, bus stops bombings in the sity of Voronezh, the blowing up the Moscow-Grozny train. [11] [12].

  1. ^ (reference to book by Yossef Bodansky)'
  2. ^ Yuri Felshtinsky, Alexander Litvinenko, and Geoffrey Andrews. Blowing up Russia : Terror from within. New York 2002. ISBN 1-56171-938-2.
  3. ^ Sergei Yushenkov: That was a coup in 1999.
  4. ^ David Satter. Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State. Yale University Press. 2003. ISBN 0-300-09892-8.
  5. ^ The Second Russo-Chechen War Two Years On - by John B. Dunlop, ACPC, October 17, 2001
  6. ^ Paul Klebnikov: Godfather of the Kremlin: The Decline of Russia in the Age of Gangster Capitalism, ISBN 0-15-601330-4
  7. ^ The Operation "Successor" by Vladimir Pribylovsky and Yuriy Felshtinsky (in Russian).
  8. ^ Western leaders betray Aslan Maskhadov - by Andre Glucksmann. Prima-News, March 11, 2005
  9. ^ Checehn Parliamentary speaker: Basaev was GRU officer The Jamestown Foundation, September 08, 2006
  10. ^ Lazaredes [dead link]
  11. ^ Special services stage undermining activities - by Yulia Latynina, Novaya Gazeta, 03 April, 2006.
  12. ^ The marketplace was blown up by photorobots by Vjacheslav Izmailov, Novaya Gazeta, 07 November, 2005.


You repeatedly did this many times. In my opinion, this is vandalism.Biophys 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

All these sources contain not facts but allegations unconfirmed and ussuported. Therefore they could be cited just as allegations. They are cited by Biophys with violation of Wikipedia attribution policies as facts and not as allegations. Therefore I have deleted them.Vlad fedorov 04:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
All these sources are not reliable, couldn't be ascertained and therefore must be deleted as defamatory.Vlad fedorov 06:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edits[edit]

I proposed to negotiate here. But instead someone simply deletes my text sayig this: "puppet forces? liberation movements? grow up...). Fine. How about article Criticism of Vladimir Putin (a translation from Russian Wikipedia)? Biophys 00:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theories"[edit]

Kuban kazak, to claim that something is a conspiracy theory, you must justify this by sources/references. Otherwise, this is your OR and POV.Biophys 00:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC) But yes, this should be formulated more carefully. I corrected this. Thank you. Biophys 01:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research[edit]

The article should concentrate on the *notion* of the term, decribed basing on reliable sources, rather to be an arbitary collection of international activity of KGB and Soviet Union. 2-3 examples enough, preferrably to wikipedia articles about notable operations. "Active measures" is basically everything besides intelligence what was done abroad, as well as inside against enemies. No need to have this laundry list in this article. `'Míkka 01:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply[edit]

Let's find some common ground here. First, we all agree: no original research. OR is something that was not described in reliable sources as described in WP:SOURCE. So, if there is anything unreferenced, please mark this as {{Fact}}, and I either find a reference during a week, or delete unreferenced statements myself. Second, anything that described in reliable sources as "active measures" belongs to this article. This is not "everything". For example, "puppet rebel forces" (such as Trust Operation) are described as typical "active measures" in many sources. Of course, the article might be too big, unfocused, etc. That would be a legitimate criticism. But simply a deletion of sourced and relevant material is inappropriate in my opinion.Biophys 01:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Your major problem is that you are making a big fuss from the Russian calque translation where there exists a normal English word: "Subversion". This is a problem of many Russophone wikipeditors (also noticed in Polish authors as well): lacking native understanding of English language they think that some notion is very unique to Russia. United States are famous of subversion operation no less than Soviet Union. The article quotes the intervew with Kaligin, but skips the important part: the defitinion:
"On the other hand -- and this is the other side of the Soviet intelligence, very important: perhaps I would describe it as the heart and soul of the Soviet intelligence -- was subversion. Not intelligence collection, but subversion: active measures to weaken the West, to drive wedges in the Western community alliances of all sorts, particularly NATO, to sow discord among allies, to weaken the United States in the eyes of the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and thus to prepare ground in case the war really occurs. To make America more vulnerable to the anger and distrust of other peoples."
`'Míkka 17:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This is not a problem of Russian wikipedians, and this is not a problem at all. Term "active measures" can be found in scholarly books by Oxford historian Christopher Andrew and in other English sources, and it is specifically reserved in these books for activities by Russian secret services. According to Subversion article, subversion is "an attempt to overthrow structures of authority, including the state" (this term is often applied in the context of "ideological subversion", which is known to Russians as "ideological sabotage"). Some "active measures" were directed against individuals (Soviet dissidents) rather than "structues of authority". Please also see Webster's dictionary. Subvert means: (1) to overthrow or destroy (something established) or (b) to undermine or corrupt, as in morals. Subversion is not necessarily "active measures", and one could reasonably argue that promoting peace movements is not a destructive activity but exactly the opposite Biophys 18:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
You did not read subversion article to the end. Not to say it is just as poor as this one. `'Míkka 19:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I will no longer waste my time on this amateurish article, since I myself is not an expert. My final advice: please take the books you mentioned and quote the definitions carefully, without twisting the text to suit your understanding. `'Míkka 19:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree of course.Biophys 21:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

the most crazy article i ever seen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.23.69.206 (talk) 11:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

agee -- dubious[edit]

The notion that the KGB "used" Phillip Agee to discredit the CIA is highly dubious. Agee's work contains nothing that has been shown to be disinformation, and although he had contacts with the KGB, he never allowed them to "use" him as a mouthpiece, as the article suggests. 50.74.192.11 (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Two minor points[edit]

"Lawrence Bittma" in the footnotes - is that meant to be Ladislav Bittman? 2nd point: To me, it makes little sense to concentrate on active measures being a Soviet specialty. First of all, all other East Bloc intelligence agencies introduced disinformation units (the Hungarians being the last, in the early sixties). But my main point ist that, of course, the US were indulging in such measures, too, without any doubt. The reports by the Church and Pike committees are full of information on this, although these actions were not called "active measures". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.59.254 (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)