Talk:Adolf Eichmann

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According to German-Jewish prof. Dietrich Bronder, Eichmann, a self-hating Jew, was born in Palestine, and his birth certificate was later fabricated, giving Sollingen as his place of birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Which is nonsense and so doesn't belong here. Zerotalk 07:09, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Could you a bit more specific? Why do you automatically reject the work of a genuine scholar, a professor? "This is nonsense" doesn't sound like a solid argument. We know well, from the famous book of Bryan Mark Rigg - "Hitler's jewish soldiers", that this sort of situations were possible and acctually pretty frequent. This case should be examined more thoroughly by some qualified historian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
"Dietrich Bronder", who may or may not have been a real person, claimed that most leading Nazis were Jewish. It's crap. Zerotalk 15:55, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
In his book, The Occult Roots of Nazism..., the historian Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke dismisses Bronder's book as "crypto-history" (p. 221) For his definition of crypto-history see: Crypto-history Joel Mc (talk) 09:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
And as for Hitler's Jewish soldiers, Rigg is considered a quack and his book nothing but fantasy just as well by modern German scholars. Rigg gives vastly, preposterously higher numbers of German-Jewish Mischlings serving in the Wehrmacht at an age fit to serve than there were even registered Mischlings alive at any age between birth and death in the official 1939 census. Most Mischlings he interviews were either not allowed to serve to begin with or were soon found out and discharged (and in either case were subjected to slave labor from October 1944 onwards). According to the Nuremberg laws, only "1/16 Jews" (i. e. those whose great-grandparents had no more than one Jewish parent) were allowed to apply for "racial examination" (Rassegutachten) to be examined on whether they showed any "Jewish" biological and psychological traits, in order to be declared fit to serve if they appeared "Aryan" enough. Rigg's book is about as reliable as the infamous Hitler diaries hoax. -- (talk) 04:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

POV commentary about the movie[edit]

"2007 film Eichmann, dramatizing Eichmann's interrogation, and downplaying his role in the Holocaust"

This commentary sounds very biased. It should be removed or rewritten more neutrally (who claims that his Holocaust role in the movie is downplayed?). (talk) 13:05, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The comment is backed up by a citation; The Eichmann Trial by Deborah Lipstadt, page 178. The book is available as a snippet-view on Google. -- Dianna (talk) 15:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
My objection is that the sentence sounds like it was taken out of context from a film critic's review (or in this case, from a book). I wanted to know more about this downplaying and historical inaccuracy in the movie, so I went to the movie's page, but there was nothing there. I think the sentence should be further elaborated or taken out. You can't just just say "the movie sucks" and put Ebert in the references, it is like forcing someone's interpretation of the movie as an art on the reader. (talk) 18:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, now I understand. I will edit the article to show that this is Lipstadt's opinion. -- Dianna (talk) 00:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Date of death[edit]

This has been brought up before (see Archive 1) but not adequately addressed. As far as I know, sources based on eye-witness accounts say that Eichmann was hanged after midnight, i.e. on June 1. For example the chaplain Hull states 12:02am. The book of Casarani, while not stating an actual time of death, says that it was scheduled for midnight but there was a technical problem with the apparatus that caused a delay. What sources of similar quality exist for May 31? Zerotalk 11:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

There being no reply, I'll make the change. Zerotalk 08:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The change looks fine to me. I wish I could help more, but there's no books available locally on this topic. -- Dianna (talk) 14:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Profession of Lothar Hermann[edit]

There is something gone wrong in the sentence addressing Lothar Hermann's correspondence with Fritz Bauer (a German judge and prosecutor). Lothar Hermann was not a “German Jewish lawyer who had fled to Argentina ” but a “German ex-pat and survivor of the Holocaust who had fled to Argentina . . . ” [1]

Citation from the source mentioned above: Eichmann’s undoing began in Argentina after the daughter of Lothar Hermann, a German (and Jewish) ex-pat and survivor, started dating his son.

“She begins dating a young man named Nick.” Lipstadt paused. “Eichmann.” With Hermann’s tip, German-Jewish lawyer Fritz Bauer and Israeli operatives sniffed out Eichmann, who had changed his name to Ricardo Klement.

--Vulpesvulpes201 (talk) 19:07, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

The source you provide does not back up the edit you made, which said "Lothar Hermann (1901–1974), a German Holocaust survivor, (son of a Jewish cattle dealer from Quirnbach/Westerwald, Germany), who had fled to Argentina in 1937". -- Dianna (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I agree to your argument, but in my statement above I only refer to the current version of the wikipedia on Adolf Eichmann. The web source I provided above is to make clear that it was Fritz Bauer who was a German judge and prosecutor, but not Lothar Hermann! Did you get my point? Please compare with this sentence:
Also instrumental in exposing Eichmann's identity was Lothar Hermann, a German Jewish lawyer who had fled to Argentina after escaping from Dachau concentration camp, where Eichmann had been an administrative officer at one time.

--Vulpesvulpes201 (talk) 06:36, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Bauer was a lawyer. I don't find any good source saying that Hermann was a lawyer too, and the citation given for that sentence (Lipstadt, p11) doesn't say that he was. So we will remove that. Hermann was not a Holocaust survivor either, since he left Europe before there was a Holocaust. Lipstadt also does not say that Eichmann was working at Dachau concentration camp when Hermann was there (for socialist activity). At that time Eichmann worked for Department II/112, but I didn't figure out where that was located. Zerotalk 09:20, 12 March 2013 (UTC) Actually, neither Lipstadt nor the new source I brought (Cesarani) say the camp was Dachau, so that is gone too. Zerotalk 11:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for responding swiftly. Regarding the profession, the best would be, of course, to contact Liliana Hermann (niece of Silvia, the daughter of Lothar Hermann), who is on a fact-finding mission regarding the history of Lothar Hermann. This is an Argentine website where information is presented about the history of Lothar Hermann, unfortunately without giving detailed references / sources. [1]
In the source below, I found more detailed biographical information about Hermann.
Cited from: Neal Bascomb: Hunting Eichmann: How a Band of Survivors and a Young Spy Agency Chased Down the World's Most Notorious Nazi; Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2009
Lothar was half-Jewish and ... had been imprisoned at Dachau for socialist activities in 1936. Mindful of the increase in the persecution of the Jews, he had immigrated with his Christian wife to Argentina soon after Kristallnacht.

--Vulpesvulpes201 (talk) 20:35, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Hermann was an interesting person, and I wonder if we can find enough material for an article on him. The story of how he was arrested on suspicion of being Mengele is quite extraordinary. Unfortunately that web site does not meet WP:RS. Zerotalk 10:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
This is an attempt to contribute an explanation on how the false designation of Lothar Hermann's profession could have come into use in one of the previous versions of th wikipedia article on Adolf Eichmann.
... Bauer, a Jewish Holocaust survivor, had received the information about Eichmann's location from another German-Jewish lawyer, Lother Hermann, who had immigrated to Argentina during the war.
According to this source, (unfortunately, this website does not allow to identify the author responsible for its content) Lothar Hermann was a "worker"
"... as Lother Hermann, a worker of Jewish descent who fled to Argentina from Germany following his incarceration in the Dachau concentration camp."
I found another very interesting message (related to the role Lothar Hermann played in the capture of Adolf Eichmann) in a forum
Citation: The blind refugee's secret, by Yossi Melman
... . . Argentine author-journalist Uki Goni focuses on how chance and luck played a key role in the operation, and tries to set the record straight concerning Lother Hermann, who deserves the lion's share of the credit for exposing Eichmann but who did not attain the glory and the gratitude he so richly deserved.
..The source to which Yossi Melman refers is also mentioned in ODESSA: Uki Goni, The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Peron's Argentina
--Vulpesvulpes201 (talk) 14:51, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Estimado mi nombre es Ariel y soy esposo de Liliana Hermann, pude ver en la pagina de Adolf Eichmann sobre el tema en discucion sobre si Lothar Hermann era abogado o no. Quiero decirle que no era abogado,el era gestor y tramitaba jubilaciones para Alemanes en Buenos Aires, tenia un buen conocimiento de leyes y no temía a la hora de reclamar por algo justo. Por otro lado ya estamos en condiciones de afirmar que la primera denuncia de Lothar hermann sobre el paradero de Adolf Eichmann fue realizado ante la Embajada de Israel en 1954 simultáneamente con la DAIA organizaciones que representa políticamente a la comunidad judía en Argentina quien fue la responsable de amenazar a Lothar por mucho tiempo, incluso fue la que invento la causa para confundirlo con josef Menguele en 1961 luego que escribiera a Israel cansado de tantas mentiras que le dieron honores a Simon Wiesenthal un gran mentiroso, Hermann fue torturado y amenzado por 5 agentes del mossad , 2 de alemania Federal y un alto directivos de DAIA que tambien era agente del mossad Gregorio Schurmann.Tambien me gustaria informarlo que el sr Harel fue un gran mentiroso e invento muchas cosas sobre la familia hermann , un romance de Silvia con Klauss algo totalmente falso y el hijo de Eichmann jamas visito la casa de hermann ,todo es una gran mentira, imagine que ni la operación garibaldi fue verdad. Estamos trabajando en el libro para contar la verdad y desenmascarar toda la operación basándonos en documentos desclasificados en Argentina , Alemania,Israel y Estados Unidos. gracias — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arushko (talkcontribs) 00:46, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Proffered immunity[edit]

I find no reference for the statement that the former high ranking Nazis were offered "immunity and safe conduct". Six, at least, was told that he risked arrest for war crimes. Mc (talk) 10:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes they were refused entry to Israel with one or two exceptions. I'll fix this, I'm just slow. Zerotalk 12:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Stephen Landsman writes: "Experts and other potential witnesses were intimidated from appearing on behalf ot the defendant. The prosecution made it abundantly clear that Nazi war criminals who entered Israel would be arrested and prosecuted. Attorney General Hausner specifically declared that propose defense witnesses, including Otto Winkelman,..., would be arrested on sight." (Crimes of the Holocaust: The Law Confronts Hard Cases By Stephan Landsman, p.65)--Joel Mc (talk) 10:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Doubtful update by Diannaa as of 17:53, 6 October 2013[edit]

In revision: Revision as of 17:53, 6 October 2013 Diannaa it is claimed: "His poor school performance resulted in his father withdrawing him from the Realschule and enrolling him in the Höhere Berufsfachschule für Wirtschaftsinformatik vocational college"

Wirtschaftsinformatik? Before WWII? Really?

The whole update is huge, contains many facts, but this one alone makes it very doubtful that any of the updates are in fact true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sejtam (talkcontribs) 05:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

It is odd. Such a school exists now but was founded in 1984. Zerotalk 10:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
It was correct except for the name of the school. Should be Höhere Bundeslehranstalt für Elektrotechnik, Maschinenbau und Hochbau. I fixed it. Zerotalk 11:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the correction, Zero0000. "Höhere Bundeslehranstalt für Elektrotechnik, Maschinenbau und Hochbau" agrees with the quoted source. Sorry for the mistake. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Bascomb's book[edit]

From what I've seen it is a journalistic (as opposed to scholarly) book that is rather sensationalist and probably not reliable for details. Claims that it makes which are not otherwise supported shouldn't be added as fact. I noticed "a series of monasteries that had been set up by the Catholic Church as safe houses" — this is extremely far from being proved. It is well known that there were monasteries which served as safe-houses (esp. for Catholic criminals from the Balkans), but the suggestion that the Catholic Church (implying the church hierarchy rather than local church people) set them up for the purpose of hiding people like Eichmann is highly disputed. Does Bascomb offer any proof of this assertion? We need to state it as Bascomb's opinion, if at all. Zerotalk 04:40, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Cesarani states (page 208) that Eichmann stayed in a series of monasteries and convents but does not mention the Catholic Church as being the organisers. He says some of the safe houses were under the auspices of Father Anton Weber of the St Raphael Community in Bavaria, but does not mention the Catholic Church as a whole. Levy (page 136) also mentions Weber. I have amended the prose, see what you think. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]


for dead URLs

This review is transcluded from Talk:Adolf Eichmann/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Quadell (talk · contribs) 19:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Nominator: Diannaa

This is an important article about a fascinating (and horrifying) individual. I will begin this review shortly. It may take a little longer than most reviews, due to the detail required. Quadell (talk) 19:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Quadell. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to bring up issues as I find them, allowing you to work on them as I review, if you like. First off, let me say that the prose is excellent. Far beyond the "clear and concise" standard for GAs, the sections I've examined are up to our exacting FA standards. I've made a few copy-edits on very minor issues, and I'll continue to do so; as always, feel free to revert and discuss if you disagree with any of my changes.

I'm very pleased with the state of this article. Once the final issues are resolved, I'll be delighted to promote it. I'll put it on hold now, and I look forward to your responses. Quadell (talk) 14:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Intrusion by Cliftonian

I hope neither of you mind, but I have made a few minor alterations during the review; nothing major, mostly just formatting, some minor copy-editing and the like. I just had a suggestion to make I thought I might note here: do either of you think it's worth mentioning that Landau, Halevy and Raveh, the three judges at the trial, were all, like Eichmann, German-born? If so, perhaps we might add a footnote mentioning that all three immigrated to Palestine in 1933 after the Nazis came to power. Perhaps not directly relevant but I think it adds an interesting dimension. Cliftonian (talk) 20:08, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

It's true they were all fluent in German and did not have to wait for the translation, which was just as well, as apparently the German→Hebrew translation was dreadful. But these details are probably best left to a separate possible future article about the trial. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:23, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough, just thought I'd mention it. Great work on the article so far! Cliftonian (talk) 20:25, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I gotta go to the gym now so if you want to do some more copy edits now is a good time. smile -- Diannaa (talk) 20:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Great. I'm glad you feel I'm being helpful. Cliftonian (talk) 20:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks very much for both your edits and your inputs. Quadell (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
  • His wife's name is given in the infobox as Vera and in the body as Veronika; this should probably be consistent (easily rectified by changing the body to say Veronika "Vera" Liebl, if Vera was short for Veronika). Also I presume they remained married until his death? Would be good for the infobox to put that Cliftonian (talk) 09:36, 22 December 2013 (UTC) Green tickY fixed
    My name's Quadell, and I endorse this message. Quadell (talk) 13:37, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
    Amendments complete, thanks so much. Let me know if there's anything that got missed. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Final assessment
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is quite a challenge to write a comprehensive, balanced article on such a notorious and important historical figure. I'm proud to have been a part of it, and I hope the article becomes featured some day soon.

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    The prose is brilliant. The MoS is followed in detail.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    The article is impeccably sourced, and the "References" section is beautifully formatted.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Impressive work was done to make sure the article is free from tangents or focus problems. The article is reasonably comprehensive.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    After much work and thought, I feel this article conforms to our NPOV policy.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    No problems at this time.
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Most images are legitimately free, and the non-free lead image is used appropriately. All captions are good.
  7. Overall:
    I'm delighted to promote this article to GA status. Well done. Quadell (talk) 18:01, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your kind words and for your assistance in improving this article. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:30, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

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