Talk:African diaspora

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Contents

[edit] Moroccans/Maghrebians

Some of the European entries are apparently counting people from the Maghreb. Those are North Africans, not sub-Saharan Africans - i.e., they aren't "black". 69.129.36.50 (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Largest 15 African diaspora populations

Where is the citation for this? Where are these numbers coming from?? --128.122.209.207 (talk) 17:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Africa Diaspora Popolations

In Italy there are 2,670,514 black people!! not 800,000! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.255.69 (talk) 20:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

You absolutely must source this, or regular editors will continue to revert you, as we have been doing for days.--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 20:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

i' am sorry!! but now i am ready, the number is 2,670,514! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.228.49 (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

What is your published source? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 20:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

i don' t andesteand, i' am from Italy, soy i speak Italian!! please help me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.245.25 (talk) 21:01, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Just tell us where is your number published? Dov'è 2.670.514 pubblicato? ~Amatulić (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok right, is African immigrants to Italy!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.245.25 (talk) 21:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Please is true, in Italy there are 2,670,514!! Demo ISAT Statistiche!! don't stop me now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.245.25 (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, that article cites http://demo.istat.it/str2006/ as the source for the number, which reports 2,670,514 non-citizen foreign residents from African countries in 2006. The original cited source http://noi-italia.istat.it does not quote numbers, only percentages and numbers per 1000 population. I can only conclude that the number from that source was derived.
I am disturbed by the subdomain 'demo' in the source that provides a number. I'd like to see some other editor's opinions. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:24, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you vary much=)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.245.25 (talk) 21:31, 8 June 2010 (UTC) NO is immposible!! is http://demo.istat.it/str2006/ please now, the black paople are 2,670,514 i don' t think soy 800,000 is vary long for now!! in Italy today there are more black people. plesa!! in france there are 3,000,0000 not 4,200,000!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.10.128 (talk) 00:38, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Not quite. That 2 million+ figure at http://demo.istat.it/str2006/ is a reference to all immigrants to Italy from Africa, not blacks exclusively. And most immigrants to Italy from Africa are from North Africa, not Black Africa, as that same website makes clear. 74.12.222.239 (talk) 01:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I find it strange that the article refers to "Africans" inclusively, yet the table of figures has a column for "Black Africans". I wonder why. I suspect many of the other numbers in that table represent all Africans rather than just Black Africans. The entire table may be flawed in its implementation.
So the original 800,000 figure is questionable (derived via original research), and the 2.67 million figure is also questionable because it includes non-black Africans.
In any case, the source breaks it down by country, so it's easy to eliminate all the countries bordering the Mediterranean Sea (Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, etc.). Pretty much everyone south of those countries would be considered black, I think. ~Amatulić (talk) 03:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I lighten the text a little bit by removing the constant use of the "Black" before the word "African". I think the fact that those Africans were black is abundantly clear by the context of this article and is considered the common use of the word. See the AU definition in the current article for example. Analyzer99 (talk) 12:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora

In italy there are 2,670,514 africans!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.230.81 (talk) 13:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora popolations

And in France are 3,000,000 mllion, is not true 4,200,000!! tha africans include,

in Italy are 2,670,514 million.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.233.71 (talk) 13:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Accepted terminology in reference to African diaspora groups

I'm not sure if this point applies to diaspora groups in other countries but in the U.K. it is now generally preferred if we refer to African-Caribbeans as opposed to Afro-Caribbean, as used in the article. This is similar to African-American, whereas one would not hear the term Afro-American and the use of the prefix Afro may be seen to have offensive connotations.

Atteridgeville (talk) 09:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora popolations

The Africans immigrants in Italy 2010, are 1 milion!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.240.138 (talk) 15:51, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora popolations

Please!! control in Demo ISTAT 2009 stranieri residenti in Italia!!the africans are 931,000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.248.141 (talk) 21:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Please!! Some LOGIC. 931,000 is number with Moroccans, Tunisians, Egyptians, Algerians and Lybians. YOU MUST READ THE ARTICLE!!! In table we have title: "BLACK AND BLACK MIXED POPULTION"!!! The Term "African Diaspora" is applied to sub-saharan Africans. 931,000 - North africa + Caribbean = about 300,000. Use your brain! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.113.100.34 (talk) 10:53, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora popolations

control!!! http://demo,istat.it/str2009/index.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.253.238 (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Africa diaspora popolations

The total are 931,000 Africans in Italy in 2009!! please control in demo ISTAT 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.229.91 (talk) 14:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

931,000 is number with Moroccans, Tunisians, Egyptians, Algerians and Lybians. YOU MUST READ THE ARTICLE!!! In table we have title: "BLACK AND BLACK MIXED POPULTION"!!! The Term "African Diaspora" is applied to sub-saharan Africans. 931,000 - North africa + Caribbean = about 300,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecsperto (talk • contribs) 20:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Overuse of the rarely used black african expression

I think within the context of this article it's pretty clear we are referring to people of Africans origin which are black, especially since the article make a point about it. Even census canada is using the common use of the term during the recensement. http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/tbt/Rp-eng.cfm?A=R&APATH=3&D1=0&D2=0&D3=0&D4=0&D5=0&D6=0&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=01&GID=837928&GK=1&GRP=1&LANG=E&O=D&PID=92333&PRID=0&PTYPE=88971%2C97154&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&TABID=1&THEME=80&Temporal=2006&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF= Analyzer99 (talk) 12:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
I'll give other few examples: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37442&Cr=slave&Cr1= http://www.canadaviews.ca/2011/01/24/february-proclaimed-african-heritage-month-in-nova-scotia/
What is important for Wikipedia is the common use of the word and when people refer to Africans and African descent they use black before it because it is understood withing the context. A simple Google search of "African descent" can convince anybody that people rarely used added the word black (much less Black) before it. What is important here is the common use of the words and frankly it's very cumbersome to read that way especially when it's repeated over and over again. Analyzer99 (talk) 18:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps some reading on the topic will change your mind.Moxy (talk) 19:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for those links. It clearly demonstrate my point. They use the term "African" without any constant references to the color of the skin of the people preceding the word. It's the common use of the word "African". For example articles about the slave trade would use the word Africans to describe the people who were enslaved. Analyzer99 (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
???Pls read the books...let me give you some links to pages and terms usedMoxy (talk) 19:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Even in the text you provide they generally use the expression Africans without any qualitative regarding the color of the skins. Making a search (or browsing the book) with the word African or Africans can clearly show that. Same result would be provided by doing a search in google or current news sites. I gave an example by using the United Nation link above. It's the common use of the word. In fact this very article was written using the word African at beginning. Analyzer99 (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I can also state the African Union definition of "African diaspora" quoted in this article to consolidate my point: The African Union defined the African diaspora as "[consisting] of people of African origin living outside the continent, irrespective of their citizenship and nationality and who are willing to contribute to the development of the continent and the building of the African Union." Analyzer99 (talk) 21:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I think we have to be careful to specify "Black African descent" because by your definition, every human being is part of the African diaspora. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
I really don't see what your beef is. African or Black African, they can be used interchangeably, but there is nothing wrong with using "Black African". The vast majority of people in North Africa are not Black and shouldn't be lumped together with people of a different race. Blackjays1 (talk) 05:30, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Analyzer99, the subject is intended to be people of Black African ancestry, aka Subsaharan African ancestry, throughout the world. It is to them that the literature on "African diaspora" is devoted. The subject shouldn't be misrepresented, either by commission or omission. SamEV (talk) 01:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Let's use a definition and choice of words as the sourced definition by the African Union and African Diaspora association of Canada (http://www.africancanadiandiaspora.org/eng/), among others. Which are line with the earlier version of this very article and in agreement with common use.Analyzer99 (talk) 02:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I understand your point of view but Wikipedia is not the place to express personal quibbles about semantics but strive to use reliable sources for its encyclopedic articles (Verifiability). Here I provided sourced definition of African diaspora which are in line with common use and earlier version of this article.Analyzer99 (talk) 10:50, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
I want to recall again the core principle of WP:V in the editing of Wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Analyzer99 (talk • contribs) 18:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
Dont not change this again..as you see noone thinks your right. You do not have consensus to change the wording. If this continues i will report this behaviour. Pls read Wikipedia:Consensus Moxy (talk) 19:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a low viewed page so consensus is easy to come by with multiple or a few accounts. I will seek external dispute resolution if the non-sourced wording of the African Diaspora definition is constantly changed for an unsourced one. Wikipedia talk pages is non-proper source. Still I encourage editors to consider the core WP:V principle above personal quibbles about semantic and discuss it on this talk page. Because WP:V is a core principle of wikipedia to prevent that type of arbitrary edition (even by so-called consensus which is not a core principle as the concept of Verifiability). As I said above, the wording of the definition of African Diaspora is the one used by the majority of the African Diaspora sources and association and it's not the place of Wikipedia to redefine expression. Analyzer99 (talk) 20:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
You are free to seek outside opinions at any time for anything - Perhaps outside help will solve this edits. We have explained Y the word is relevant and have provided references to this fact. If you believe outside intervention is needed please see Dispute resolution requests which details the various different methods used in dispute resolutions.Moxy (talk) 01:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I didn't see any sourced definition of African Diaspora using the 'approximate' skin color of African people as a qualifier. The African Union definition African Diaspora didn't use it. Nor is the New Dictionary of the History of Ideas or the Unesco encyclopedia. In fact all the contrary. Of all African Diaspora association http://www.africancanadiandiaspora.org/eng/aboutus.aspx all use the term African without any qualificative on the color of African people. Here the African Diaspora association of Europe: http://www.auads.info/ And: http://www.aswadiaspora.org/ African diaspora museum: http://www.moadsf.org/about/index.html. All those completely contradict personal opinion about it not backed by any sources. In fact, in contradiction with all the main sources, common use and earlier version of this very article before it was modified without any source to back the change. Analyzer99 (talk) 02:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Analyzer99, you're being a major pain in the ass, and I think you know it. You really want sources that say the African diaspora consists of Black Africans and their descendents? Take a look at these:

  • http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1152&bih=724&tbs=bks%3A1&q="african+diaspora"
  • "African origin of blacks"
  • "dynamic interactions among black communities and cultures"
  • "Black political movements since the 1960s"
  • "Africans who lived south of the Sahara and were dispersed by free will or forcefully to the non-African lands"
  • Becoming Black: creating identity in the African diaspora
  • Black theatre: ritual performance in the African diaspora

There's more, but you can see it for yourself. Enough already, or I'll see to it that you're blocked again. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The contentious is about the terminology used. This article is about "African Diaspora", your sources aren't, and all sources cited about "African Diaspora" which defined the concept used the term "African" without any qualifier about the color of the skin (which is not needed). Why should Wikipedia be any different? Why you're taking up upon yourself to change the term used by all African Diaspora associations, common use (like most news articles), African Union definition of African Diaspora. Personal quibbles about semantic, or fringe original theory, not backed by any sources is hardly any reason to do so. In fact, earlier version of this very article used "African" as the cited in the sources for many years before it was modified without any sources to back up the changes. People on a Wikipedia talk page hardly constitute reliable sources about personal quibbles and fringe theory and offer no proper sources to back up their claims. In fact, the 3 sources in the article intro simply mention Africans. Isn't that true? So why do you refuse to accept the terminology for the African Diaspora used by the African Union, African Diaspora/Museum association in Europe, Canada and the US and Unesco encyclopedia and the dictionary of new ideas? Wikipedia is not the proper venue to change common terminology. I think the terminology used should be the one used by all major African Diaspora associations and the African Union. Analyzer99 (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
You keep saying the same thing over and over. This articles is about the "Black" African Diasporas - just like this paper is about the "Black African Diaspora" as represented in its title (note y there is a distinction). If you were to look at The World African Diaspora Union's manifesto you would see it also makes the distinction The World African Diaspora Union (WADU) having been created for the unification and solidifying the various associations, groups and individuals of the Black Diaspora and having accepted the Pan African Africancentric philosophy as the means of establishing a new global order of justice and equality for all by African empowerment for the accomplishment of the African Renaissance. I can only guess you think the word "Black" is bad derogatory term and is y you want it gone. Pls be aware that many nations like Canada for instanced use the term black proudly and is in fact a legal term used for statistics Please Note: that 'African origins' should not be considered equivalent to the 'Black' population group or visible minority status, as there are persons reporting African origins who report a population group or visible minority status other than Black. Conversely, many people report a population group or visible minority status of Black and do not report having African origins. For information on population group and visible minority population in the 2006 Census, refer to the appropriate definitions in this publication.) In the 2006 Census, the 2001 ethnic origins 'African (Black), n.i.e.' and 'African, n.i.e.' were combined into one aggregate group: 'African, n.i.e.' Prior to the 2006 Census, the ethnic group 'African (Black), n.i.e.' included general 'African' responses as well as responses of 'African Black' (as provided on one line of the census questionnaire) and African origins not included elsewhere. In 2006, the group 'African, n.i.e.' includes general 'African' responses as well as responses indicating African origins not included elsewhere. A response of 'African Black' provided on one line of the 2006 questionnaire was considered to be a multiple response and was counted in both 'Black' and in 'African, n.i.e.', an approach consistent with the treatment of multiple responses of 'African' and 'Black' written over more than one line of the census questionnaire in 2001 and in previous censuses. Moxy (talk) 09:01, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
If you take the time to read the definition of African Diaspora in the link you provided: http://www.wadupam.org/about It reads:
Q What is the African Diaspora? A The African Diaspora is mainly those persons of African descent dispersed from Africa into Europe, Asia and the Americas during Arab and European commercial slave raids.. Again showing my point strongly, and disproving yours about the absolute need to put "black" in front of "African", which is not surprising since it's the common definition (and common use of the word "African" which refer especially to black) and terminology used for it by almost all sourced definition of African Diaspora.Analyzer99 (talk) 09:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
So again we are showing the term is used but you are simply dismiss it. You did noticed the word is on the page right? I think i see the problem now - Do you believe all Africans are black? .Moxy (talk) 09:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I took the portion of your source which define African Diaspora which is the subject of this article and the current point of contentious. Don't put that on me. As if it was my personal opinion. All reliable sources about the African Diaspora agrees with the terminology. Which is the essence of WP:Verifiability. Analyzer99 (talk) 09:54, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
O well i am done here. Will let other respond from now on ..Quote ="All reliable sources about the African Diaspora agrees with the terminology" Like the 14 refs on this page are not not there? Good luck in the future on your endeavour to rid the world of the word black -->Encyclopedia of the African diaspora. Moxy (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
The sources I used are about the definition of "African diaspora" and the terminology used which is the contentious here. Even your own sources agrees with it and only use "African" in the African Diaspora definition. Hard to believe all African Diaspora associations, the African Union, the Unesco encyclopedia, news articles (including the United Nation), earlier version of this article and dictionaries are on a personal mission against your quibbles about semantics and personal theory. Analyzer99 (talk) 10:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

[edit] France

there are only about 350,000-400,000 blacks in the european part of France but if you include the black populations of the overseas departments then the black population for France as a whole is over 1 million for example there are 200,000 blacks in the paris region of ile de france(population 12,000,000) but in comparison the city of london england(population of 8,000,000) has 1,100,000 blacks,that means london has way more black people than all of the european part of france. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.236.192 (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Neanderthal slur

Isn't the use of this term just a cover for the Neanderthal slur, painting other people as being not pure Homo sapiens sapiens, even though no firm evidence of crossbreeding has been offered? Hcobb (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Putting a tiny note in the lead to handle this. Hcobb (talk) 04:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Neanderthals aren't mentioned. The page is on historic migration from Africa (mainly to the New World), not the hypothetical and debated Out-of-Africa exodus of around 70,000 years ago/prehistory. Middayexpress (talk) 11:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
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