Talk:Afro-Dominican (Dominican Republic)

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The one drop rule is so tired[edit]

Racial discrimination against Black people in the Dominican Republic, and else where in Latin America, does not give people the license to implement the one-drop rule on its inhabitants just to make up for the sins of slavery, the caste system, and color bias engrained in this region of the world. All this page does is inflate the number of Afro Dominicans by adding the percentages of mixed-race people and those of Black ancestry all together and hilariously, at the most pathetic attempt of subtly, imply that mixed race Dominicans are "really Black". What gives? The one drop rule is equally toxic way to look at race and it wouldn't be acceptable if the number of Whites/Spanish descended were inflated to such ridiculous percentages. Why does race in the Dominican Republic and else where in Latin American continue to by looked on by American cultural lenses. More importantly, why are those of mixed lineage are constantly reduced to props and commodities to booster up the number of Black people in Latin America? Really, has there been no honest attempt to explain race and ethnic identity without given in the vestiges of American P.C. and Americancentric (made up word, I know) thought? Why are Afro-Americans, Afro-Latinos, and potentially mixed-race people who consign the one-drop rule, are always appeased at the expense of others who do not share this mentality regarding race and identity?

Seriously, I'm getting sick of this Black and White divide in part of the world where, again, race, ethnicity, and identity is more complicated than "not wanting to deal with Blackness".Kzp1990 (talk) 18:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh look, some great contradictions we have here:

"Afro-Dominicans are the majority in the country"

"So, the Afro-Dominican are 8,475,600 people in the Dominican Republic" (after adding the percentages of mixed-race people and Afro-Dominicans)

"(the majority of Dominicans are mulattos)"Kzp1990 (talk) 19:09, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The article is not trying to inflate the percentage of Afro Dominican uniting blacks and mulattos people in the same group. The article is dedicated to Afro Dominicans, and they are all Dominican of African descent, whether black or mulatto. So it is always best use the Afro Dominican term when it comes to both groups together, and refer not to them as black people, as many African Dominicans are not black but mulatto. The article does not talk exclusively black Dominicans, but Afro Dominicans. The article say that the black Dominicans are a 12% of the population, based on the censuses of the Dominican Republic, not inflating the percentage. So, a mulatto is Afro Dominican, but an octoroon, with only around 15% of African blood, not. --Isinbill (talk) 14:32, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Contested deletion[edit]

This page should not be speedily deleted because Article does not speak of a race, not speaking exclusively of black Dominicans but of all Dominicans of African descent. So, today the North Africans can be scarce but if in the future had many in the Dominican Republic also be indicated in the article. This article is not contrary to the white Dominicans, but the European Dominicans and Asians Dominicans. Mulattos can appear in both articles. It is an article about the origin of a population (the Africans), not exactly race. Furthermore, the title of the article itself should define what we are talking American group. Can not be called, for example, "black Dominicans," but "black Dominicans (Dominican Republic)", to distinguish them of the black people from Dominica. I mean, I have my own reasons to believe that the title of the article, as now is wrote, is ill-posed and tries to speak only of part of the population (Black) of the that really tries to talk article (all Dominicans of African origin). The fact that this article spoke only on the black population, when obviously must also mention the mulatto because it is an article that talks about the Afro Dominicans and not only blacks Dominicans was one of Inhakito decisición, not mine (I was the one who published the Article). Therefore the article should be called "Afro Dominican (Dominican Republic)", not "black Dominican," a title which neither even distinguishes between black Dominicans from the Dominican Republic and the Black Dominican that live in Dominica, a title that makes me think that this is wrong. Additional, Afro Dominicans are thus called worldwide. In the Dominican Republic not is so, because their population, in large part, tried to deny their African roots, even if they are recognized as descendants of Africans worldwide, denying, especially being black (in that case, the article neither even should be called as black Dominicans). Therefore, removing the Afro-Dominican title of the article is also a poor excuse.--Isinbill (talk) 17:48, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

There's something very patronizing and antagonistic for folks who are not Dominican (as in those from Dominican Republic), whether they are Black or not, to lecture/scold Dominicans about their alleged denialism of Black of ancestry/lineage. Once again, race, ethnicity, and identity is an extremely complicated subject in this country, as with the rest of Latin America. Being able to concede they're folks that most certainly go out their way to deny that lineage/ancestry doesn't change the condescending, and once again, antagonistic tone some of these articles have regarding Latin Americans and their (lack of) acknowledgment of African ancestry. Your comment about White Latin Americans of multiple nationalities including people of mixed ancestry in their percentages/estimates is also false because many of them do not, as seen in many Wikipedia pages and those who are usually okay with engorging/inflating the number people of people with Black/African ancestry are resistant to doing the same with those of White/European ancestry. Ironically enough, "Regla del Sacar" and "Gracias al Sacar" can be used to do exactly that, booster up the number of Whites or those of European ancestry. I don't buy your excuse of leaving the article the way it is because of confusion with the inhabitants of Dominica. There exists this sense of entitlement among outsiders, specifically those who are ethnocentric about (their) Black ancestry, that feel the need to "correct" racial categorizations and identities by simply implementing the American One drop rule. Basically, fighting fire with fire or in other words, combating Eurocentrism and White Supremacy with more ethnocriticism. I guess it stems from the "discovery" (or realization) the racism and color bias that exist in Latin America and the consequences of the Casta system and Spain's imperialism and colonialism in general, therefore, Hispanics/Latinos/Latin Americans must accept this equally sickening, archaic, outdated view of race, in order to make amends for the mistreatment of of Black/nowhite people in the Americas since the conquest and because allegedly, American society says somebody with 1/8 Black ancestry is automatically Black or because it fits the P.C. worldview of African Americans and makes them and others with that mentality feel better about themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kzp1990 (talkcontribs) 22:53, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Article protected[edit]

This article has been temporarily semiprotected due to persistent unsourced content changes from multiple IPs over the past few weeks. Zad68 18:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Illegal Haitians[edit]

Illegal Haitian immigrants are NOT counted in the country's statistics. DR has a huge Haitian population, over half of which are illegal. This is fact, look it up. So, counting the native black population and Haitians (both naturalized and illegal) together, statistically DR would be somewhat "blacker" than just 18%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spreadofknowledge (talkcontribs) 17:02, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

All people are counted in the population census regardless of their legal status. Just in the 2010 Census there were registered 311,969 Haitians, when there were just about 11,000 with legal status; a Social Sciences textbook issued in 2009 by the General Archive of the Nation claimed that blacks were 30% of the population but no official report has been given. Nacho Mailbox ★ 07:26, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Prefix "Afro-"[edit]

Inhakito, please do not move pages before a discussion first. In the U.S., these groups refer to themselves as "Afro-Latino;" which has many sources for it. You can make a mention where it says (or Black Dominican or Spanish: Negro Dominicano etc.). All of these Latin groups follow the same pattern, the Dominican is no different. Remember, this is an English Wikipedia and Afro simply denotes being black. Savvyjack23 (talk) 19:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

In the United States they may refer to themselves as "Afro-Latino", but NOT IN the Dominican Republic, and this article is about an ethnic group IN the Dominican Republic, NOT IN the United States. Nacho Mailbox ★ 06:59, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Inhakito/ Nacho , are you sure about that? See: [1] [2] [3]

And all these other sub-articles about Afro-Latin American:

So these are all wrong too? I disagree, and that warrants a discussion. I didn't create those pages so I am sure, others can chime in on this as well. I understand what you are saying about how there isn't a "Euro-" etc. and because of that this shouldn't be "Afro either;" maybe you are right but there are a few problems. "Euro" implies that the group came only from Europe which would discount the "Levantines" who are from the middle east and Asia whereas "white" can include all of these groups into one. However, it isn't so much the same with Afro, as this group strictly stems from African slave descendants, and I cannot possibly see where else during these last hundred of years. The only predominately black group I can think of that probably would not consitute as being "Afro-" in a sense, would be the native Aborigines from Australia as they have inhabited that land probably as for as long as existence. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:31, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Inhakito, on 31 May 2013 User:Isinbill, disagreed with Black Dominican by saying, ""Therefore the article should be called "Afro Dominican (Dominican Republic)", not "black Dominican," a title which neither even distinguishes between black Dominicans from the Dominican Republic and the Black Dominican that live in Dominica, a title that makes me think that this is wrong."" Your edits lately have been very uncharacteristic. You have been around for a while, I should not have to tell you that you should consult the talk or move discussion page as the consensus may not agree with your changes. I have mentioned sources that comply with "Afro". Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Category:Dominican Republic people of African descent[edit]

I'm curious TonyStarks, John Pack Lambert, Osplace, Benkenobi18, Carlossuarez46, as to why you all agreed to delete this category (See log: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_9) on February of 2013? When categories like these (below) exist:

  • Category:American people of African descent
  • Category:Caribbean people of African descent
  • Category:French people of African descent
  • Category:English people of African descent
  • Category:Brazilian people of African descent
  • Category:German people of African descent
  • Category:British people of African descent
  • Category:Spanish people of African descent
  • Category:European people of African descent (How on earth did this make the cut?)
  • Category:Japanese people of African descent
  • Category:American people of South African descent
  • Category:Russian people of African descent
  • Category:Canadian people of African descent
  • Category:Belgian people of African descent
  • Category:Polish people of African descent
  • Category:Jamaican people of African descent
  • Category:Haitian people of African descent
  • Category:Swedish people of African descent
  • Category:Finnish people of African descent
  • Category:Australian people of African descent
  • Category:Greek people of African descent
  • Category:Chinese people of African descent
  • Category:Turkish people of African descent
  • Category:Norwegian people of African descent
  • Category:Latin American people of African descent (Or this?)
  • Category:Uruguayan people of African descent
  • Category:New Zealand people of African descent
  • Category:Dutch people of African descent
  • Category:Puerto Rican people of African descent
  • Category:Cuban people of African descent
  • Category:Danish people of African descent
  • Category:Ecuadorian people of African descent
  • Category:Scottish people of African descent
  • Category:Italian people of African descent
  • Category:Panamanian people of African descent
  • Category:Israeli people of African descent
  • Category:Trinidad and Tobago people of African descent
  • Category:Chilean people of African descent
  • Category:Mexican people of African descent
  • Category:Peruvian people of African descent
  • Category:Asian people of African descent (How?)
  • Category:Irish people of African descent
  • Category:Grenadian people of African descent
  • Category:Ukrainian people of African descent
  • Category:Romanian people of African descent
  • Category:Colombian people of African descent
  • Category:Guadeloupean people of African descent
  • Category:Honduran people of African descent
  • Category:Filipino people of African descent
  • Category:Welsh people of African descent
  • Category:Austrian people of African descent
  • Category:Hong Kong people of African descent
  • Category:Swiss people of African descent

...etc, etc. There are over 100 of these categories. So why stop at the Dominican Republic? If you are going to discuss to delete one, you might as well advocate towards deleting them all. I agree with you TonyStarks that these categories should really be done on a "national" basis (your example was Dominican Republic people of Chinese descent), however that has clearly not been the case, which is why I am utterly baffled by the agreement to delete this category while there is such an abundance. John Pack Lambert having 84% of the population mixed or not of African descent is entirely irrelevant. The case and point is that there is an African descent presence (hence this very article Afro-Dominican) and a small entirely white (without African influence) presence on the island as well. Benkenobi18, the New World (the western hemisphere) is relatively young, so much so, that before computers existed we were still easily able to identity someone's ancestry (unlike today, you were either white, black, mixed or native). Remember that these islands (the United States included) were originally inhabited by natives, therefore we all came from somewhere. (descent-wise, ancestry-wise) (When we talk about ancestry in general, its usually in regards to generations and generations in. Descent is usually used for what's most recent (synonymous with parentage. We do not call our grandparents ancestors do we?). Carlossuarez46, the reason why the DR does not specifically document this is because of tension ties with its neighbor. Even though Columbus eradicated the Taino almost to its entirety, the Dominican Republic government deemed necessary to try to exclude the term mulatto with mestizo instead, wanting nothing to do with dark skin people as much as they could. However, before this government came to be, there was the Captaincy General of Santo Domingo and did the Spanish document such a thing? You are darn right they did. In other words, I have credible sources to support such a category. (Example: Francisco del Rosario Sanchez, mixed of African/Spanish descent, one of the founding fathers of the nation; its blatant in the texts I have found on him) I also believe the Dominican Republic should have a third article, not solely Afro or White, being mixed is distinct as you descent from both. The one-drop (a dubious rule) doesn't apply to these countries. (See Mixed-race Brazilian, Mulatto Haitian or pardo and mulatto) In any case, I tend to agree that African descent and European descent should go. It's far too vague, but the fact that a country like Argentina having an African descent category and the Dominican Republic doesn't is laughable and quite frankly, blows my mind. Savvyjack23 (talk) 10:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Calidum T|C 06:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Afro-Dominican (Dominican Republic)Black (Dominican Republic) – #1 "Black" is the correct translation for Negro, not "Afro-"; #2 Redundancy in using Dominican twice Nacho (Talk page) ★ 23:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Red Slash this does not work due to the use of "dominican" by both the Dominican Republic and Dominica. GregKaye 05:22, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Greg, did you know that there are over 100 times as many people living in the Dominican Republic as in Dominica? Over 100. I think we have a primary topic. Red Slash 18:28, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Red Slash I did not know that. Here are results in books:
"Black Dominicans" gets to "Page 27 of 270 results"
"Afro-Dominicans" gets to "Page 17 of 164 results"
GregKaye 19:31, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I would be fine with any naturally disambiguated title--Blacks in the Dominican Republic, etc. But someone (can't remember who right now...) has been trying to get articles like "Pakistani people" to "Pakistanis", and I wouldn't mind the continuation of that here. Red Slash 22:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that sounds good and perhaps a move can also be made of Blacks (Canada)Blacks in Canada as per Blacks in France and Blacks in Liverpool. GregKaye 01:53, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose and comment, for almost the same reasons I gave in Talk:White Dominican (Dominican Republic). Black what? A Dominican Republic is not a "Black," but the country may have black "people." (For example: Let's say "Black" was the name of a town someplace, you can create Black (town), or a band whose name is Black; Black (band)). The brackets also simply specify the difference between the Dominican Republic and Dominica, which doesn't make it "redundant" because you do not read the words in the brackets as a part of the name itself. However, where my view differs from White Dominican (Dominican Republic) is that I can sort of see why the "Afro-" should be dropped and Black should be included. (For example: I think African American should be changed to Black American simply because in culture how much African are Americans today? We all come from Africa, even Europeans from the beginning of time). However, many might strongly disagree with me, which can make this move subjective as well. It is well documented of the "Afro-Latino" and its derivatives (Afro-Cuban, Afro-Puerto Rican, as well as Afro-Dominican in English speaking societies.) I would like this to happen to all the Latin-articles, not just this one, but that proposes a big challenge. It isn't so much that the Dominican Republic doesn't use the word "Afro-," the truth is, NONE of these countries really use the term. They ALL use negro, (some countries moreno etc. for "black").
I also disagree with the "s" inclusion at the end of the word. In short, more articles eliminate this "s" usage. It is a term, that explains a demographic, not the other way around. Similar articles reflect that. If you are including the "s" for the sake of not sharing the name "Dominican" because of the dislike for the usage of brackets [(Dominican Republic)], I would strongly advise against it. Please see: Talk:White Dominican (Dominican Republic) for further reasoning.
  • Oppose, as the proposed title does not make it clear that the article is about an ethnic group, or even about people at all. Also oppose counter-proposal. Dominicans is a disambiguation page, as "Dominicans" are also monks or people from Dominica. If "Dominicans" is unclear, "Black Dominicans" would also be unclear. Egsan Bacon (talk) 03:38, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Savvyjack23 my proposal was for Blacks (Dominican Republic).
Egsan Bacon on what basis would you want Wikipedia to retain the title: Afro-Dominican (Dominican Republic)?
Nacho, I certainly support any move from the current title that gives a reflection on the way that ethnicity is described in the real world of the Dominican Republic. GregKaye 05:00, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.