Talk:Ahom kingdom

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Former countries (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject India (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Assam
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Assam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Assam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 
WikiProject Burma (Myanmar) (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon Ahom kingdom is within the scope of WikiProject Burma (Myanmar), a project to improve all Burma related articles on Wikipedia. The WikiProject is also a part of the Counteracting systemic bias group on Wikipedia aiming to provide a wider and more detailed coverage on countries and areas of the encyclopedia which are notably less developed than the rest. If you would like to help improve this and other Burmese-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome. WikiProject icon
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject History  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 


False Misleading Information and Plagiarism[edit]

Kamrupi people are minority they do not have a State in India, their treasures shall not be plowed through Wikipedia by any much stronger powerful group such as Ahom

In Wikipedia who do I formally complaint and where can I find complaint form?

Kurmaa (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

  • References (Wade, 1805) are given, for "Kingdom of Assam".
  • The western-most trading post of the kingdom, "Khandar Chokey" is clearly mentioned in the same reference.
  • The map is based on Fig 1.1, "Geography of Assam", page 3. The reference is given in the media page.
Chaipau (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Can you post a link to this reference (Wade, 1805) with complete title as well as publisher?

Kurmaa (talk) 23:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The link is given in the article itself. But here it is: http://books.google.com/books?id=WItJAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA116#v=onepage&q&f=false
Chaipau (talk) 00:54, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Can you post publisher information as well as year of publication for this "Geography of Assam"?
  • Do you have a link for this as well?
Kurmaa (talk) 00:56, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
The complete publisher information for "Geography of Assam" is given in the media page itself. Chaipau (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I do not see a map reference, but it has a note "self-made"
  • Who is the author or who is this "self-made" individual?
  • What year and month it was "self-made"?
Kurmaa (talk) 11:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Please look further down under "References". Chaipau (talk) 12:13, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I do not see any reference that show author/source for this map - this information I want to see. Please make it available. You can see this "self-made" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ahom-kingdom-c1826p.png
  • You do not have a reference to support "self-made". Am I missing something?
130.65.161.59 (talk) 20:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
If you go down and look under the section "References" you will see the complete reference for the book (I leave this as an exercise for you). The map is based on Fig 1.1 of that book. The map is self-made, which means I created it. I used the relevant software to create a map. But it is based on the map given in Fig 1.1 of that book. Chaipau (talk) 21:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I do not think Wikipedia should use any "self-made" stuff as reference based on any un-reviewed document.
  • Are you a Ahom as well?
  • If so are you a Mongoloid Ahom especially Tai-Mongoloid?
Kurmaa (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
The compilation "Geography of Assam" is an edited work, so is reviewed. Chaipau (talk) 01:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
  • No there is no Kingdom of Assam (Kingdom of Ahom) in "Geography of Assam".
  • What is the formal method to register a complaint in Wikipedia for an investigation?
Kurmaa (talk) 17:24, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
I am very much surprised that the user Kurmaa denies the very fact that the Ahom ruled the Lower Assam as Manas river was the western boundary of Ahom Kingdom. I advice him to read the history the Assam and then consider to argue on this topic. If the Ahom have not ruled Lower Assam then how come the battle of Saraighat occured in Guwahati in which the Ahoms defeated the great Mughals under the leadership of Lachit Borphukan. If user Kurmaa denies the sacrifices made by Lachit Borphukan and the Ahoms to protect Assam as well as the old undivided Kamrup district from Mughal invaders then i am sure that he is neither Assamese nor a Kamrupi. Why there are so many temples built by Ahom kings in the Kamrup district itself like Basistha Temple, Navagraha temple, Dirgheshwari temple, Umananda Temple, Rudreswar Temple, Sukreswar Temple, Ugro Tara Temple, Ashwaklanta and many others. There are temples in Hajo and Nalbari district which are constructed by Ahom Kings. There are records of land grants to Brahmin families in Lower Assam by Ahom Dynasty. If you visit the famous Kamakhya temple, you will observe inscriptions inside the walls of the temple by Ahom kings Rajeswar Singha and Gaurinath Singha in the late 18th century, which shows the authentication that the Ahom have ruled the undivided Kamrup district till 1826 CE. Go and check every history of Assam or ask any historian. I am sure they will clear your doubts and wrong beliefs.
The map provided in this article is correct and if you want prove then read A History of Assam by Sir Edward Gait, chapter VII The Climacteric of Ahom Rule, Gadadhar Singha. All your doubts will be clear. Read those books, enrich your knowledge level and then come to argue. From your reactions one can clearly see that you lack even the basic knowledge of Assam History and you are driven by Lower Assam sentiments and dislike for Ahoms. But truth is truth and all the historical documents support the statement that the undivided Kamrup district was under Ahom rule till 1826 CE.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 12:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Just a curtsy reminder[edit]

This is just a curtsy reminder for Chaipau:

  • What is the formal method to register a complaint in Wikipedia for an investigation?
  • Also is this map in question approved by Wikipedia?

Kurmaa (talk) 01:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Look at Wikipedia:General_disclaimer. Chaipau (talk) 10:53, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
This link does not have answer to question in first bullet. This link does not indicate either that any user can use Wikipedia resources in order to publish false misleading information and demonstrate plagiarism. Kurmaa (talk) 22:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I have cited the work from which this map is derived. I do not know how this is plagiarism. I have no idea how to complain against plagiarism of maps, so I cannot help you. Chaipau (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Are you this "self-made" individual in the map?
Kurmaa (talk) 01:08, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Just a curtsy reminder:
  • Are you this "self-made" individual in the map?
  • What year and month it was "self-made"?
Kurmaa (talk) 08:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Just another curtsy reminder[edit]

Just another curtsy reminder:

  • Are you this "self-made" individual in the map?
  • What year and month it was "self-made"?

Kurmaa (talk) 15:20, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Just another curtsy reminder:
  • Are you this "self-made" individual in the map?
  • What year and month it was "self-made"?
Kurmaa (talk) 12:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Ahom and Mughal Battled to occupy Kamrup[edit]

Battle of Saraighat[edit]

User Lachitbarphukan wrote, "If the Ahom have not ruled Lower Assam then how come the battle of Saraighat occured in Guwahati in which the Ahoms defeated the great Mughals under the leadership of Lachit Borphukan."

I have been visiting Wikipedia on and off almost from the year it was founded. I found it pretty useful.

However, I would like to know exactly how many women that Ahom gave away at the end of the battle of Saraighat to great Mughal along with Lachit Barphukan's niece.

I would also like to understand being victorious (as per user Lachitbarphukan) what prompt Ahom to give away that many women to great Mughal.

Pranjitb (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The event which Pranjitb mentioned regarding giving away Lachit Barphukan's neice to Mughal happened long before the Battle of Saraighat. It happened during Mirjumla invasion of Assam. According to Treaty between Ahom king Jaydhwaj Singha and Mughal general Mirjumla, in 9 January 1663, one Ahom princess was sent to the Imperial Harem. Her name was Ramani Gabharu. She was the daughter of Swargadeo Jaydhwaj Singha and she was also the neice of Ahom general Lachit Borphukan. She later married Mughal prince Azam, the son of Mughal Emperor Aurangazeb. But in 1667, during the reign of Ahom king Chakradwaj Singha, the Ahom army under the leadership of Lachit Borphukan captured Guwahati from Mughals. Its a perfect example how Ahoms bounce back in action. The famous Battle of Saraighat occured during the reign of Swargadeo Udayaditya Singha, in 1671, under the leadership of Lachit Borphukan, in which the Ahoms decisively beat the Mughal army under Ram Singh I of Amber, and protected Assam including undivided Kamrup district from Mughal domination.

So a kind request to Pranjitb, Little knowledge is very dangerous. Its good that the user has atleast some knowledge of history, but sadly it is half knowledge. One should not be emotional when writing something on historical events, because such emotion is no good if it is not supported by Historical records. I request the user to kindly read the chapters of History Completely. I hope the user have seen the difference of years between 1663, giving away Ahom princess to Mughal Prince Azam and 1671, in which the famous Battle of Saraighat occured. I hope the information which i have provided will open the User's mind to those chapters of history which the User Choose to Skip.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Mirjumla's Ahom occupation -treaty included women[edit]

According to Treaty between Ahom king Jaydhwaj Singha and Mughal general Mirjumla, in 9 January 1663, one Ahom princess was sent to the Imperial Harem. Her name was Ramani Gabharu.

According to another source, "A contingent of women slaves accompanied the princess to Delhi."

So user Lachitbarphukan in total how many women were given to Mughal to avoid Mughal's Ahom occupation?

Pranjitb (talk) 19:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

User Pranjitb, why dont you ask your source which have given you this information.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Why Ahom do not use Kamarupa or Kamrup instead of Lower Assam?[edit]

Again, I would like to understand as well - since Kamrupi people views Lower Assam a derogatory term why Ahom people do not use Kamarupa or Kamrup instead of Lower Assam.

Pranjitb (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Please do not use Wikipedia as a forum (see WP:FORUM). Also, whatever the origin of the term, it was the British who popularized the term. And it is universally used today in newspapers and even academic articles ([1]). The British used "lower" and "upper" in many places, not just in Assam---for example "Upper Burma" and "Lower Burma". The "Upper" and "Lower" terms refer to the reaches of the Brahmaputra river. Chaipau (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

British Supremacy to Ahom Supremacy over Kamrup[edit]

The British used "lower" and "upper" in many places, not just in Assam---for example "Upper Burma" and "Lower Burma". The "Upper" and "Lower" terms refer to the reaches of the Brahmaputra river. Chaipau (talk) 18:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Lot of internationally accepted British terms in India vanished, e.g., Calcutta, Bombay, Bangalor, Orissa, ...
  • Local media and newspapers in Assam have been Ahom led exhibiting both Ahom ethnocentrism and Ahom supremacy.
  • Why use Wikipedia to propagate Ahom ethnocentrism and Ahom supremacy ?

Kurmaa (talk) 12:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

From what year till 1826 CE Ahom occupied greater Kamarupa / Kamrup?[edit]

But truth is truth and all the historical documents support the statement that the undivided Kamrup district was under Ahom rule till 1826 CE.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 12:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

  • From what year till 1826 CE Ahom occupied greater Kamarupa / Kamrup?

Kurmaa (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Lets throw some light on some historical events which prompted the Ahom kings to expand their kingdom towards Kamrupa. In 1613 CE, Parikshit Narayan, the ruler of Koch Hajo, was defeated by the Mughals. He was taken prisoner and was escorted to Delhi where he had an audience with Mughal Emperor Jahangir. On acknowledging Mughal Supremacy and on the agreement of annual tribute of four lakhs rupees, the Emperor returned his kingdom. While on his way back, Parikshit Narayan fell ill and died. On his death, the Mughals annexed his kingdom and set up Hajo as their head-quarters in Assam. Bijit Narayan, the young son of Parikshit Narayan was set up as a tributary king of a small state, named after him, called Bijni. On the defeat of Parikshit Narayan, his two brothers Balinarayan and Gaj Narayan, fled to the Ahom Kingdom and sought refuge from Ahom King Swargadeo Pratap Singha. Swargadeo Pratap Singha had married the daughter of Parikshit Narayan, Mangaldohi, and later set up the Mangaldoi town on her respect. Owing to this matrimonial alliance, Swargadeo Pratap Singha granted refuge to these Koch princes. Meanwhile, the Mughal Governor demanded their extradition, which Swargadeo Pratap Singha refused. This and other causes of offence led the Mughal Governor to decide on the invasion of the Ahom Kingdom, leading to Ahom-Mughal conflict. The invading Mughal forces were defeated and driven back to their own territory. After this victory, in 1615 CE Swargadeo Pratap Singha installed Balinarayan as the tributary ruler of Darrang and renamed him as Dharmanarayan, while his brother Gaj Narayan was set up as a tributary ruler in Beltola. In 1640 CE, a treaty was signed between the Ahoms and Mughals, under which the Barnadi river, on the North bank of Brahmaputra, and Asura Ali, on the south bank of Brahmaputra were fixed as the boundary between Ahom kingdom and Mughal Empire. Kamrup came under Mughal dominion. In 1658 CE, the war of succession occured between the sons of Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan, due to which Mughal authority in Kamrup became weak. Taking opportunity, the Ahom king Jaydwaj Singha drove the Mughals out of Kamrup and occupied the territory till Sankosh river, the present day boundary between Assam and West Bengal. For three years, the Ahoms occupied these territories. In 1662 CE, Mughal Emperor, Aurangazeb sent Nawab Mirjumla to recover Kamrup from Ahoms. Mirjumla defeated the Ahoms but owing to difficulties that arose due to rainy season of Assam, he signed a treaty with Ahom king Jaydhwaj Singha in January 1663 CE, according to which the daughter of Jaydhwaj Singha was given in marriage to Mughal prince Azam, son of Aurangazeb and Kamrup again comes under Mughal rule. During the reign of next Ahom king Chakradwaj Singha, the Ahoms under Lachit Borphukan freed Kamrup and Guwahati from Mughal rule, in 1667 CE. The Mughal Emperor sent Ram Singh I of Amber to recover Kamrup, but he was defeated in the Battle of Saraighat by Ahoms led by Lachit Borphukan. In 1679 CE, Laluk Sola Borphukan betrayed Ahom king Sudaipha, and surrendered Kamrup and Guwahati to Mughals. Later in 1682 CE, during the reign of Swargadeo Gadadhar Singha, the Ahoms defeated the Mughals in the battle of Itakhuli and freed Kamrup from Mughal rule. The Manas river became the western boundary of Ahom kingdom and it remained till the termination of Ahom rule in Assam.

Therefore after the final victory of Ahoms over Mughal in 1682 CE, the undivided Kamrup district remained a part of Ahom kingdom till the termination of Ahom rule in 1826 CE. I hope the above answer satisfy the question aksed by User Kurmaa. If the user need any more information or got any doubts he can check some books on Assam History, authored by E.A. Gaits, Surya Kumar Bhuyan, Hiteswar Barbaruah, Padmanath Gohain Barua. Also there are many books written by many notable writers. All documents can authenticate the above information.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Is the answer 1682 CE?[edit]

Please confirm whether the answer is 1682 CE. -Kurmaa (talk) 12:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The answer should be 1617 CE, when the Ahoms captured Guwahati from Mughals for first time, during the reign of Swargadeo Pratap Singha. It marked the beginning of Ahom rule in Kamrup and the Ahom kings considered Kamrup as a part of their kingdom. The official post of Borphukan, the Ahom viceroy of Kamrup and the region west of Koliabar was also created during that time. From 1617 CE to 1682 CE, both Ahoms and Mughals were involved in bitter conflicts for the occupation of Kamrup, with sometime the results favours Mughals and sometimes it goes in favour of Ahoms, but ultimately the Ahoms emerged victorious in 1682 CE, and Kamrup remains as a permanent part of Ahom kingdom till 1826 CE.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 01:10, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Why answer 1617 CE as Ahom and Mughal battled until 1682 CE to occupy Kamrup[edit]

User Lachitbarphukan wrote, From 1617 CE to 1682 CE, both Ahoms and Mughals were involved in bitter conflicts for the occupation of Kamrup, with sometime the results favours Mughals and sometimes it goes in favour of Ahoms, but ultimately the Ahoms emerged victorious in 1682 CE ....

  • Since Ahom and Mughal battled until 1682 CE to occupy Kamrup, what motivated user Lachitbarphukan to claim that Ahom have been occupying Kamrup from 1617 CE?

Kurmaa (talk) 18:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I have already shared much facts and knowledge on Assam history regarding this topic. I request the user " Kurmaa" to do some self study on Assam History. My purpose was to prove the historical truth that the Ahoms had ruled the undivided Kamrup, which i have proved with all those facts which i have showed. I request user "Kurmaa" to admit this historical truth.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 14:15, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

List of Temples in Undivided Kamrup that Ahom Built[edit]

So according to user Lachitbarphukan, Ahom built temples in Kamrup.

Basistha Temple, Navagraha temple, Dirgheshwari temple, Umananda Temple, Rudreswar Temple, Sukreswar Temple, Ugro Tara Temple, Ashwaklanta and many others.

Can you complete the list with names for "many others" as well?

There are temples in Hajo and Nalbari district which are constructed by Ahom Kings.

'Here too can you complete the list of temples with names as well?

Pranjitb (talk) 06:47, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I request user "Pranjitb" to find those names himself if it is so much concern for him. He can visit the following link to find the names of the temples.

http://nalbari.nic.in/religion.htm

Hajo


Hope the user Pranjitb will be satisfied with the list. If not, he can try some other links himself.

The names of the temples which i have already shown are standing monuments which proved the historical facts that the Ahom Swargadeos have ruled the undivided Kamrup and the undivided Kamrup was part of Ahom kingdom. Its all recorded in every historical documents, which will remind us about the glorious Ahom rule in undivided Kamrup district as well as in Assam. Lachitbarphukan (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Is Lachitbarphukan writing truth? Did Ahoms build temples in Kamrup? Or did they claim after occupation?[edit]

Basistha Temple, Navagraha temple, Dirgheshwari temple, Umananda Temple, Rudreswar Temple, Sukreswar Temple, Ugro Tara Temple, Ashwaklanta and many others.

As claimed by user Lachitbarphukan, Ahoms did not build above temples in Kamarupa or Kamrup.

Ahoms claimed those temples after occupation of Kamarupa or Kamrup.

These temples are also not listed in the link that user Lachitbarphukan cited http://nalbari.nic.in/religion.htm

Pranjitb (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

User Pranjitb, the link http://nalbari.nic.in/religion.htm shows those temples which the Ahom Swargadeos have built in Nalbari district. I have a bundle of historical records to prove Ahom rule in Undivided Kamrup District. All historians will support this truth. The user Pranjitb must understand without proper historical records and evidence, all his claims are just bubbles in water, making him a object of mockery. Till now the user cannot even narrate a single evidence in his support. Unfortunately he also got no guts to accept the truth. But Truth Always Prevail, that is the motto of Indian Emblem, "Satya Meva Jayate". Anyways, i already have shared lots of historical records to convince him. From his post and comments i am sure all my efforts gone in vain and he has proved how much lonely and desparate he is, how he refuse to see any reason. I feel sorry for him. From now all his comments will neglected. I wish him Good Luck.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 05:20, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Additional reference[edit]

Primarily a linguistic study, comparing and contrasting Ahom terms as used in the article, with similar terms in Shan and Siamese.

--Pawyilee (talk) 13:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)