Talk:Aikido

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World Games Programme[edit]

The template {{Sports of the World Games program}} has recently been added to the page. Whilst the World Games organisation does list aikido on their site, it is apparently only ever part of the Invitational Program, rather than featuring in the main sports categories. I personally am unconcerned about the addition of the template, but give PRehse's recent edit summary, I thought it worth bringing here for discussion. Yunshui  09:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Well the whole story of Aikido being included is something to tell. Aikido as represented by the IAF being essentially anti-sport - whereas the one style that regularly holds international competitions was completely blocked. Aikido was "demonstrated" and then only once. I think the template itself is just too inclusive.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:13, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

It's definitely featured more than once - I've found records of demonstrations from 1998, 2007 and 2007 at least. You're right about their anti-sport interpretation of it, though, and it's never been part of the main series of events (you'd think they'd have found a slot for Tomiki aikido, though!). I'd agree that the template is a bit indiscriminate in its content; perhaps it should be restricted to the official program only. Yunshui  12:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I was just going by the years listed in the link (not sure what the * means) and what I remember. So do we keep the link in the Aikido article? Peter Rehse (talk) 14:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd veer towards getting rid of it - aside from a link in the infobox the World Games Program isn't mentioned in the article, and so it's hard to envisage a situation where a reader viewing this article would think, "ooh, I must read more about the other sports in this World Games thing," and thus find the navbox template useful. It would probably be good to get a few other opinions, though. Yunshui  14:16, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree it should be dropped - it doesn't add any value or understanding that I can detect (not that the other templates at the bottom do much better). Good to see you active again, Peter. —Mrand TalkC 13:24, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Done. I removed it but I will say that the other templates do help put Aikido in the larger context.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The question is: the world knows of the existence of Aikido only every 4 years at the World Games because it's sports program. You supporters ashamed of this fact and want which is not specified. So we should delete the Aikido from Template:Sports of the World Games program. This seems crazy, but if you say that it should be, so be it. --Kasper2006 (talk) 08:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that the idea was that the template did not add anything useful to the Aikido article. There is no SHAME or CENSORSHIP or any other reactionary terms you want to throw around. The usefulness of links don't go both ways - Aikido does not link to all articles that mention Aikido both in this case and many others. The world games are just not very important in the context of the article. No comment on whether Aikido should be included in the template beyond the fact that it was only invitational and there was no competition.Peter Rehse (talk) 08:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
No problem, now in {{Sports of the World Games program}} Martial Arts are four: Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Sumo, Wushu. To the Official site of the World games are five. No problem, really, in Italy we say: «Contenti voi, contenti tutti» (Glad you all happy) ;-) --Kasper2006 (talk) 09:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Criticism section[edit]

The section was removed by an IP editor, but restored with the rationale that a criticism section is "integral part to a Featured article", but searching on this matter found nothing backing up that assertion, and contradicts what is written on the subject in essays and in policy. The section is also poorly sourced, placing way too much reliance on a self-published Wordpress blog. - SudoGhost 04:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

True - I just remember that during the Featured Article/Good Article process one of the major critiques was the lack of a critism section. If that has changed fine but it does remain a feature of Aikido that critism of training method and effectiveness do exist and the section attempts to address it. Better to improve references than just to delete the section without discussion. The initial feeling was the motivation was more of an attempt to whitewash rather than improve the article.Peter Rehse (talk) 04:27, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
If better sources can be found, it would be appropriate to include the content in the relevant sections such as this, but not in its own criticism section. As it appears currently it has no place in the article per WP:STRUCTURE: "Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other." - SudoGhost 16:23, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't disagree that it would be better to fold the debate into the narrative, but until that is done, we need not be in a hurry to throw what is there into the garbage. Note that WP:STRUCTURE doesn't say you can't have a separate section - just that it is best to try to include them in the narrative. As Peter mentioned, this was one of the critiques (rightly or wrongly) when it became a FA - so I'd like to see the current wording and sources still be available for those that have time to fold some info into the main body of the article - then the section can be eliminated. —Mrand TalkC 23:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Until reliable sources can be found, it doesn't belong. The source used is a self-published wordpress blog, not the most reliable source for a section that shouldn't even be there in the first place. If similar content belongs then it needs to be integrated into the article with actual reliable sources, but what currently keeps getting reintroduced into the article does indeed need to be "thrown into the garbage" because it is garbage. It's poorly sourced content unduly placed in its own criticism section, and I don't think hanging onto problem-ridden content is helpful to the article. According to every relevant policy and guideline, keeping this section in the article is a step backwards in improving the article. I read the FA discussion, there was no critique that suggested a criticism section; integrating any appropriate criticism into the article was what was suggested, and this section does not do this. - SudoGhost 23:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
It is well sourced, but it might indeed be worth considering restructuring so that the first paragraph goes into the section on the roles of uke and nage (or even a new training subsection on realism), and the other two paragraphs go into the section on ki. Cesiumfrog (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Cesiumfrog - I believe the sourcing is acceptable. Maybe not great, but acceptable. Aikido Journal is not your everyday random web blog. —Mrand TalkC 00:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
As per the discussion during the articles evolution I am going from memory which usually is pretty good. It might have been at the GA stage or Peer review or elsewhere. That said I also remember being a bit annoyed that it was asked for but (shrug) what can you do. Firstly I don't think the references are that unreliable (Stan Pranin) is a very well know historian of aikido with access to original material and Aikido Journal is actually published with additional on-line access as a service. The long and the short of it I don't think section blanking without discussion is appropriate especially for long standing articles that have undergone numerous peer reviews. If this talk generates changes in structure and a better article I am all for it.Peter Rehse (talk) 00:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
By the by - you all had me questioning my memory and a simple search of the article history found this Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Aikido which was the origin of the Criticism section. Again I have no real issue in keeping it or not as a separate section but also feel that at least some of that information should be retained.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hakama trousers?[edit]

Hmm, the hakama I wore back in the day was more like a skirt. Certainly nothing like trousers as it didn't have legs. And like a long skirt, it was really conducive to falling down when you caught your big toe in the seam. Lol, good times... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.115.30 (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Aikido is sport[edit]

In order to be member of the sport organisation 'SportAccord', the sport organisation 'INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO FEDERATION' must document that their sport activity falls under SportAccord’s definition of sport. Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/application-procedure/

The SportAccord Council has developed a definition of sport to help them determine whether an applicant federation qualifies as an international sports federation Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/definition-of-sport/

INTERNATIONAL AIKIDO FEDERATION has been admitted by the SportAccord: Reference: http://www.sportaccord.com/en/members/

Best regards, - Kontoreg (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If you refuse the reference above so read following books instead:

Best regards, - Kontoreg (talk) 00:20, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Rationale for International Aikido Federation to join SportAccord has to do with the fact that certain countries (Russia comes to mind, but I am sure there are other), wanted Aikido to become a state-recognized sport with an eye to join the Olympics. Since IOC will only deal with a single international body representing an activity, and they use SportAccord to determine who it is that represents an activity internationally, it was decided that by IAF joining SportAccord, it is possible to block other groups from attempting to use the name "Aikido" for any kind of sport.
I'll quote from http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/09/13/international-aikido-federation-announcement-anti-doping-standards-for-aikido/
"the fact of the matter is, if a sport or martial art is not a member of SportAccord, then the name of sport can be hijacked, and original creators can be pushed aside, and sued for infringement. And even if they manage to defend themselves in the court, it costs a lot of money, nerves and time."
Thus the fact that Aikido is a member of SportAccord has very little to do with it being or not being a sport, and has everything to do with retaining control over the name.
Urokugaeshi (talk) 06:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
How can the term of sport and iaikido be hijacked? SportAccord is NOT the owner of the term 'Sport' besides the International Aikido Federation is NOT the owner of the term Aikido! - Kontoreg (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
A similar discussion came up in Talk:Kendo#Sport Accord.2C doping and weight. If you look through the list of members you see that the The International Lifesaving Federation is also a member. We have to beware WP:SYNTHESIS just because a body is a member of larger body does not imply Aikido is a sport. Rather than use membership of other organisations to define whether it is a sport I would be happier to go with how the major Aikido organisations describe the art.
The Sport Accord definition of sport is rather week basically that it includes "an element of competition" and does not rely on any element of luck.[1] Now if we look at the British Aikido Board's description of aikido[2] we have "Traditional Aikido has since its conception been non-competitive, however several styles have developed including Tomiki Aikido, which has introduced competitive aspects."
On the whole I've no objection to using the term "sport" in its appropriate place, there is a section at the end. However usings it in the first sentence introduces unnecessary controversy and undue weight.--User:Salix alba (talk): 18:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The two references above are really week the first has "Aikido is neither simply an exercise, a sport, a combat form, nor purely physical education. But in some sense it is all these things though it aspires to higher ideals". I can't see how an author struggling to describe aikido can be taken as a definition. The second is specifically about Tomiki Aikido.--User:Salix alba (talk): 19:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
More about Aikido as a SPORT - see the paragraph below. - Kontoreg (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

A standard definition of "sport" is: "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment." (Even "The SportAccord Definition of Sport" currently lists competition as its first element.) Most aikido expressly renounces competition (and this is also inherent in the uke/nage roles). Despite the IAF having joined SportAccord, both make very clear [3] this is exceptional (participating in games only as demonstration rather than contest). Kontoreg, even the most cursory research on this topic shows that the categorisation of aikido as a sport is controversial (and widely rejected by aikido experts), and surrounded by extensive debate (such as the level of "resistance" that maximises both learning and safety whilst also preserving the integrity of both the martial aspect and the philosophical-growth aspect). So no, I don't think wiki should summarily categorise this topic in this way (and not broach in the lead, especially not granting undue weight to one POV). Cesiumfrog (talk) 00:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sport and the Aikido article[edit]

The point of the article is not to be heavily weighted to one style or group. The idea that Aikido is not competitive is very important to a large number of practitioners and so although there should be mention of Shodokan and competition most of what was added regarding the the Shodokan system should be on the Shodokan page and not given undue weight in the Aikido article. The Sport Accord/International Aikido Federation (which is the International Organization of the Aikikai not a separate organization). I do Sport Aikido - I am a member of their home dojo and ran clubs for them in Japan. Its a great style but minor in the scheme of things. The IAF and Sport Accord have no relationship to the Sport Aikido style.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

A lot of effort has been put into getting a Featured Article on Aikido that was not style specific. One would hope any further edits would add improvements rather than push a particular point of view.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Aikido is also SPORT. This article did not described Aikido as a sport prior to my edittings. - Kontoreg (talk) 00:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
In the opinions that I have heard, people[who?] believe that Aikido is not a sport. Reliable references would help here. jmcw (talk) 09:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
The founder's son, his grandson, Michio Hikitsuchi, Mitsugi Saotome and countless other practitioners would tend to agree with you. Yunshui  11:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The entire section contains information which is style specific. Shodokan Aikido for the Tomiki stuff and Aikikai for the Sport Accord information. Together it is confusing and providing undue weight for a general article on Aikido. I will remove the section.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:47, 15 November 2013 (UTC)