Talk:Airbag

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Contents

[edit] Archives of previous discussion

Archive 1

[edit] World view discussion

Whoever posted this flag needs to provide the examples which adversely affect the accuracy of world view. Are we arguing about who invented air bags or the developers of air bags or what? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE 16:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a fair question. I can address it partially: there are substantial differences in how airbags are regulated, engineered, and calibrated in America vs. the rest of the world. Under international ECE Regulations adhered to by most of the industrialised world outside North America, as well as Australia's regulations (ADR), airbags are engineered, calibrated, and tested around the assumption of vehicle occupants' use of seat belts, to serve as truly supplemental restraints. Compared to American ones, ECE and ADR airbags are relatively small, their deployment force is relatively low, and the vehicle speed threshold above which they will deploy is relatively high. The American airbag regulations (FMVSS 208, CMVSS 208) require that airbags be engineered, calibrated, and tested so as to prevent fatal injury to an unbelted test dummy of 50th-percentile-male height and weight — even the "second generation" (or "depowered") airbags of the late 1990s and the "smart" bags of today must meet this requirement. In order to do so, the American bags must be larger, much more forceful, and must deploy at lower vehicle speeds. This, in turn, causes American bags to be potentially injurious or fatal to belted vehicle occupants. The difference in philosophy and priority is significant, as is the fact that airbags are mandatory only under American regulations; they are widespread elsewhere in the world, but not by dint of legal requirement. There are other technical, philosophical, regulatory, and developmental differences between the American approach to airbags and those in the rest of the world; this what I've described is not exhaustive. So, the template is most appropriate and should stay for now, but it clearly applies to the whole article, not just the history section. I've moved it to the top of the article. —Scheinwerfermann T·C19:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Costs" section

While there are likely many regions where the statement in the article "If they [air bags] are deployed or stolen the registered vehicle owner is required to replace them" is true, I don't believe the generalization is universal. In the US, I know of owners who continue to drive their cars after the airbags were stolen, without any mention by law enforcement. Unless the missing component risks the safety of others, most US states don't address the subject. The few states and territories in the US that have vehicle safety inspections may flag a missing airbag as a fault and require its replacement, but that amounts to fewer than a dozen States in the Union.

The US often has different laws than the rest of the world. This situation is exacerbated by the fact that laws associated with driving and operating a vehicle are made by each of the 50 states and sundry territories, not by the federal government. Federal law comes into play only because of interstate commerce associated with the sale of vehicles. This allows the federal government to mandate standards concerning a vehicle's safety equipment. Once a vehicle is sold, the federal government no longer has jurisdiction, unless the vehicle is driven onto federal property (military base, national park, federal territory that is not a state, etc.)

As an example of this, the notorious federal 55 MPH speed limit of the 1970's and 1980's had no federal enforcement power against motorists. Enforcement took place with Congress stating they would withhold funding for state projects if the states did not put the proper speed limit legislation in place. For several years the state of Montana went without this funding and without a 55 MPH speed limit.

Walt (talk) 19:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

You're right on all counts. I took a look at the section you were looking at...egads, what a mess of OR and POV, guesses, opinions, redundancy, numbers pulled out of thin air and stated without even the weakest of support, and regurgitated simplistic "Harry and Harriet Homeowner" type of advice that looked like it could've come right out of Reader's Digest or perhaps off a 17-second segment on Action McNews at Nine.
I've made a first effort at cleanup. Renamed the section heading to reflect its content, recast the assertions that could be made encyclopædic and removed those that couldn't, and made some other adjustments. Obviously, the article needs a great deal more work. The issue of injuries airbags cause or aggravate vs. those they prevent needs much more detailed coverage, for example, and we ought to have more treatment of U.S. vs. rest-of-world airbag technical standards. There's a great deal of WP:RS-compliant material out there on the subject, so now what's needed is interest, effort, and time to apply it! —Scheinwerfermann T·C23:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image of child on driver's lap

I think such an image would be appropriate for this section in the article since airbag deaths often occur due to drivers/passengers not obeying safety laws or following common sense. Thoughts? Rklawton (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's a related study on child fatalities. The study addresses unrestrained children in the front passenger seat. The image featured shows the child on the driver's lap, but it's a similar, though likely worse, problem. Rklawton (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's an early CDC article. It's incumbent upon the driver's to ensure children's safety rather than endanger it. The image provided shows a driver endangering a child by not obeying the law or common sense. The installation of an airbag only worsens the outcome of this type of mistake. Rklawton (talk) 17:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course you're correct about unrestrained children, children in drivers' laps, etc. But the image you selected is of extremely poor quality, and really doesn't illustrate anything at all. The faces are crudely pixellated, and we really can't tell if the kid's in the driver's lap or is actually in the passenger seat, and just leaning leftward to tune the radio or something. Also, coverage of these issues fits within the scope of a Wikipedia article, but only if we're careful not to stray into "do's-and-don'ts" territory. It would be appropriate to state (with citations) how many deaths and how many of what kinds of particular injuries are caused by these driver errors, but it would not be appropriate to prescribe remedies or child placement within a vehicle, for Wikipedia is not a manual or guidebook. —Scheinwerfermann T·C18:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
If you click on the image, I think it's clear that it's a young child facing right - so it's not possible for the child to be leaning over from the passenger's seat. The editors at Commons prefer personally identifiable images pixellated when the image could cause the subject some embarrassment. In this case, the driver is likely breaking several laws. I could crop the original and enlarge it to just show the driver's compartment. This would make the safety issue more clear. I agree regarding the how-to, guidebook, not a manual concerns. A caption reading "Airbags increase death/injury risks when passengers are not properly restrained". This would be in line with the research. Rklawton (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I did click on the image, and viewed it at full size. It is not at all clear or unambiguous; I fear your sense of its clarity is distorted by your having taken the image and therefore seen the unpixellated view. I am not at all sure the Commons preference for distortion applies in such a case as this; legally it is well established that there is no expectation of privacy while operating a motor vehicle on public roadways. If you wish to err on the timid side, try less obtrusive black bars over the vehicle occupants' eyes instead (one bar per occupant) and let's see if that makes the image usably clear while still masking their identities. —Scheinwerfermann T·C18:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
You are correct with regards to privacy rights. However, I've had prior experience with Commons and their timidity, and I've implemented their preferred approach. Have you viewed version #3 which is enlarged and cropped? Rklawton (talk) 18:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Still no good. Cropping is not the (main) problem, pixellisation is. If you are afraid of the wrath of marauding Commons editors, and would rather quote what you think they'll say rather than allowing them the chance to recognise that sometimes pixellisation spoils the image, then upload an image just to the English Wikipedia project rather than to Commons. —Scheinwerfermann T·C19:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Is that your only objection? Rklawton (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I have no objection to the image itself, but I do think it irrelevant, surely people know what a child in someone's lap looks like? SimonTrew (talk) 19:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
My main objection is the poor quality of the image, though Like SimonTrew, I question the relevance of an image such as this. I'm not set against it, but neither do I think even a high-quality version would add greatly to the article. —Scheinwerfermann T·C19:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I figured the photo's display of extreme stupidity would help illustrate how it is that airbags manage to kill people. There is (or was) a lot of hype about the "dangers" of airbags - but I think the real danger comes not from the engineers or the manufactured product but from users who exercise gross negligence and then file law suits when someone gets hurt. Of course, that's just my POV. You know where the image is if you'd like to use it. Rklawton (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Passive vs Active

We've had this discussion, however unlike the auto industry, Army aviation uses these terms differently. I'd like to find a way to incorporate the difference in the article focusing it toward aviation without affecting it's use in automotive circles. We view a passive device from the perspective of passive control. That is, it is typically mechanical, and limited in its ability to adjust to variations in input parameters or external conditions. Active devices on the other hand are viewed from the perspective of active control, where the technology incorporates sensing and decision making ability (i.e., electronics) to actively adjust the performance based on changing input parameters. Whether or not the occupant activates the device does not necessarily affect either passive or active; however in some cases either method will exclude the occupant for the sake of speed during a crash event. Anyone have a suggestion about how to include this in the article, preferably in the Terminology section? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE 16:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

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