Talk:Al-Andalus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Muslim history (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Muslim history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Muslim history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Spain (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Portugal (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Portugal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Portugal on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Arab world (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Former countries (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 

Pagans?[edit]

"Those who were neither Christians nor Jews, such as Pagans, were given the status of Majus."

The claim that there were "pagans" surviving in eighth-century Spain (or any religious group besides Christians, Jews, or Muslims) is a bold one. I found the reference to this in the Google Books edition of the footnote given, but the book by Salma Jayyusi is probably not a reliable source, as it's a "history" written by someone whose training is in poetry. Whatever the claim itself in the book is footnoted to isn't available in the preview. Suggest finding a better source for this odd claim or deleting it. Predestiprestidigitation (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Sourced paragraphs deleted[edit]

In this edition, a number of sourced paragraphs have been deleted with only this comment: removing non-pertinent content. I think that a thorough explanation is needed. Jotamar (talk) 14:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

With no answer in one week, the editor being active, the next natural move is to revert the deletion, which I proceed to do. Jotamar (talk) 10:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
if you want to restore material then the burden of evidence is on you. however, let us take a look on the material you the re-added.
  • the paragraph starting with the sentence "christians, braced by the example of their coreligionists..." is supported by a single source. namely a christian website, hardly a reliable secondary source. the paragraph is also undue.
  • the paragraph starting with the sentence "during these successive waves of violence against..." is not sourced at all and totally misplaced under the chapter of "rise and fall of muslim power"....as it has nothing to do with the subject i.e. not pertinent.
  • the sentence "periodic raiding expeditions were sent from al-andalus to ravage..." is in the wrong section ("rise and fall of muslim power"). as noted by the text, "medieval spain and portugal was the scene of almost constant warfare"... thousands of such incidents happened between the warring opponents. cherry picked incidents do not merit inclusion as they violate wp:npov. what is really needed, however, is a description of the fall of "muslim power" (the rise has already been described in other sections).

-- mustihussain  20:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Plagiarism of Lewis quote taken out of context[edit]

I re-wrote the quote to convey the whole mean of the section from Lewis' book. As it was written it was plagiarism.

Starting from page 44 Lewis writes “The need to uphold the Holy Law by which the status of the dhimmi is established and protected was a common concern of Muslim jurists and even of rulers. ... “ He then turns his attention to the Ottoman period of which there is most information. The next paragraph says “Sometimes, when persecution occurred, we find that the instigators were concerned to justify it in terms of the Holy Law. The usual argument was that the Jews or the Christians had violated the pact by overstepping their proper place. ...” It is at this point that Lewis discusses a poem written by Abu Ishaq in 1066 to justify an anti-Jewish outbreak of that year (see page 45 for the poem). Lewis argues that poem assures Muslims that they are acting lawfully “in robbing and killing Jews”. He says in the bottom paragraph “Diatribes such as Abu Ishaq’s and massacres such as that in Granada in 1066 are of rare occurrence in Islamic history.”

Thus, Lewis says that the "persecution" and "massacre" was rationalized by a "diatribe". This breach of the dhimmi protection sections of Islamic law was rare as the law generally upheld and sustained the protection of the Jews. That is what I expressed. The plagiarized quote was "such massacres are of rare occurrence in Islamic history". Not only was it plagiarized but it didn't explain what "such" refers to. It is to Muslim violations of dhimmi protection. Generally this didn't happen until the 19th and 20th century (he points out on the next page) when modern standards changed attitudes to the institution of dhimmi and Jews wanted more freedom. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

ah, now i see what you mean. is the latest edit ok to you?-- altetendekrabbe  12:30, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, very good. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:39, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Section stubbing[edit]

In response to the RFC[1] changes need to be made here. I am in favor of blanking the section Enduring influence on Iberian Peninsula and rebuilding it based on discussions that should take place here on the talk page. J8079s (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

From [2];

I happened to stumble upon POV material at Enduring influence on Iberian Peninsula which had been long removed elsewhere. I tried a bit, but it is almost impossible to rectify Jagged's account, so I would argue for total removal, so that people have the opportunity to start from scratch. What do you think? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Second that. Typical Jaggedian screed. Some of it might be salvageable, but at this point it is probably easier to rewrite it from scratch. Athenean (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Be Bold Use the talk page for rebuilding. J8079s (talk) 17:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Removed entire problematic section. Verified contents can be reincluded from this version. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 20:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Umayyad Dynasty[edit]

I am getting ready to write a large addition to the Cordoba section but am vacillating on where to place it. My first thoughts based on the books Encyclopedia Britannica that I am initially reading is to place them in either a new section of Umayyad Dynasty or to create an Arab Umayyad Dynasty in Spain or something similar page. However there are other options such as Caliphate of Cordoba or even Al-Andalus, which I actually think is the worst of the options. I am going to think on it and see what others in the know have to say. I also brought home a bunch of books on African History and Asian History but forget that Spain has a lot of involvement in the History of North Africa for a period, so I will need to go to my University Library and get more books. Anyway please chime in, let me know what you think. If I don't get a lot of strong opinions one way or the other I will just be BOLD, and do what I think is best from all of my sources. speednat (talk) 05:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
If you want to compile extensive information on the Umayyads in Spain, the Al-Andalus article is probably not the appropriate place to iclude all of that. Instead write a new article and link it here. --Kmhkmh (talk) 09:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

There are pages on the Emirate of Cordoba (756-929) and the Caliphate of Cordoba (929-1031). You could place it there, partitioning according to period. Walrasiad (talk) 11:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The main thing I want to accomplish is to be consistent. I am, at this point, only working with one real source, and they are calling them the Umayyad Dynasty. I wish I hadn't forgotten, when I was at the U yesterday that Iberia and North Africa were closely linked until the 15th century. I probably won't make it back to the library until end of next week or beginning of the week after. I could always look through the online journals that I have access to or even <ahem> use the <ahem> public library. speednat (talk) 13:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC)