Talk:Ali-Imran

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Talk:Al Imran)
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Islam (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This redirect does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This redirect has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Religious texts (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Religious texts, a joint subproject of WikiProject Religion and WikiProject Books, and a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religious texts-related subjects. Please participate by editing this article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Start-Class article Start  This redirect does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This redirect has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Arabic words[edit]

Done and done, where is my decoder ring at now ;) ? --The Brain 21:40, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Ali Imran[edit]

Isn't it supposed to be transliterated to "Ali Imran" since arabic "Al" means "The" and "Ali"means"Family"? If it is, then this page should be moved 202.51.230.10 02:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I forget what source I used when creating this... but, it seems that a lot of translations do Al-i-Imran... I'll do a quick survey using http://zarahemla.awardspace.com/#quran and http://www.studyquran.co.uk/EnglishTranslations.htm
  1. Al-Imran - E. H. Palmer
  2. Āl-i-’Imrān - Yusuf Ali (doesn't appear to use definite articles w/ sura contrary to the practice here)
  3. Al-Imran - Marmaduke Pickthall
  4. Aali Imran - Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al Hilali
  5. âl `Imrân - Islamusa.org
  6. Ali-'Imran - Rashad Khalifa
  7. Al Imran - Muhammad Asad
  8. Ale ‘Imran - QXP
  9. Al-Imran - Abdul Qasim
That was a relatively random sampling... so, it appears there's a mix and that both are acceptable? We should make redirects from the other ones, though. gren グレン 03:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Marmaduke Pickthall's is a famous one, so both must be acceptable. Thx, but anyway maybe we should add both kind of transliteration then, i.e:Surat 'āl-Imrān or Aali ImranArabic: آل عمران

202.51.230.10 03:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Title[edit]

I strongly agree that the name of this sura is Ali- Imran and not Al - Imran.

Title should follow the pronunciation[edit]

I suggest A-li-'Imran. It means family of Imran - isn't that what it supposed to mean? Not The Imran - that is totally wrong. 211.25.129.2 (talk) 04:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Explanation of absolutely necessary title change[edit]

The title of this Surah is "(The) Family of Imran). The definite article in Arabic is "Al" and the word for family is "ali" which is the source of the confusion. For some reason the orthography has been framed in the title so that the word family is split up to look like the word "the" followed by "i" which means nothing. This was done no doubt to be consistent with those surahs beginning with "Al-"

There is no reason, and no standard in Arabic transliteration, for the presence of a hyphen in this case.

If you would like, look at the original Arabic text. You will see that "Ali Imran" in Arabic begins with the same two letters (read from the right) as those Surahs beginning with "Al-" EXCEPT that the "l" has a line under it, or a kasrah, forming the "i" vowel and thus denoting a completely different word. Hyphens may only be used and have only ever been used with the definite article, and serve absolute no purpose in the middle of a word.

Renaming from "Al-i-Imran" to "Ali-Imran" as the former is completely nonstandard and no doubt the result of an accident. In short, this looks very unprofessional and needs to be fixed.

EDIT: The wikisource article has the same error; someone with an account there please fix https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikisource/en/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an/Al-i-Imran

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sawyer207 (talkcontribs) 02:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC) 
Huh? Most Muslims would not recognize "Ali Imran". We pronounce it "Aal-e-Imran". The world "Aal" means "family" or "descendants", and thus the title of the Surah is actually "House of Imran", with the "-e-" being the way to write the kasrah mentioned above, the vowel added to "آل" to show ownership. It's a small line underneath.
What I would suggest is for anyone doubting what I am saying google the phrases "Ali Imran", "Aal-i-Imran" and "Aal-e-Imran" and see what comes up and what the majority of Muslims use.
--iFaqeer (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
PS: in case it's not clear, "Al" ("The", or "ull" phonetically) is a whole other word from "Aal", with a longer "a" vowel. And the latter is the word for family/house/"those of", not "A-li".
Thanks, iFaqeer. I appreciate your feedback and concern and commitment. Regarding Google results, the evidence does not really lie in your favor (at least when accessed from the U.S.) Here are the results from what I understood to be your suggestions. "Aal-i-Imran" renders 22,900 results. "Aal-e-Imran" renders 703,000 results. "Al-e-Imran" only 179,000. My suggestion, "Ali-Imran," which you said Muslims wouldn't recognize, yields 4,590,000 results which is only slightly less than "Al-i-Imran" which has 4,900,000. This proves nothing for our poses, of course, as in any case the issue is not how Muslims happen to pronounce it or happen to spell it on the web in a whim. What is instead important is that our orthography reflects contemporary academic precedent.
As long as it does not contradict such precedent, I am by absolutely no means opposing "e" to represent the vowel of Kasra or the dropping of it altogether; the vowel of choice was not really my point. The issue is the placement of the hyphen, which as far as I understand it is misleading and nonstandard. Even "Al Imran" may be the best transcription (I have seen "Al Imran" used in academic texts as well as "Ali Imran") but absolutely NOT "Al-Imran."
The way the title of this article was spelled before gave the impression (as another editor also mentions above my post) that the original Arabic said "The Imran" instead of "Family (of) Imran." Also, transcribing "-e-" in English is only precedent when transcribing Persian, etc.

--Sawyer207 (talk) 04:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The poster way above gave a list of the various transcriptions according to different notable translators. I think the evidence is in favor of "Ali Imran," but as that poster noted, we must others as valid for redirects even if they are not academically sound anymore. Islamic Studies is surging as a disicipline in the English speaking world. Give this mess five to ten years and there will be one standard way of doing things (probably based on the "Encyclopedia of Islam" transcription, according to which hyphens are only used (1) after the definite article or (2) with certain prepositions and conjunctions. Certain not an ordinary noun like "family" whose terminal vowel is dropped merely for pronunciation's sake before another vowel -- not for grammatical elision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sawyer207 (talkcontribs) 04:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Sawyer, if I may, I don't think is is an academic work; this is an encyclopedic work. And as you pointed out yourself, the most common way to express what the "official" name of this Surah is, is "Aal-i-Imran". So just on that, shouldn't the title be "Al-i-Imran", not "Ali Imran" And just to be clear, the name is pronounced "aal-e-imraan".

I am stressing that because, especially in everyday use, the word "Ali" is a very separate word; a word with not much to do with the first word in the title of this article right now. --iFaqeer (talk) 03:07, 18 March 2012 (UTC)