Talk:Alabama/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

History

Why is there a tremendous lack of recent history? I doubt Alabama became uninteresting. Willie Stark 20:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure many people would like to fill that vacancy, but before they can we need to know where to put it. --ArtifexCrastinus 19:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
There is already a "History" section started. Just jump in and add away. Thanks for your help.--JodyB yak, yak, yak 22:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

What date exactly in 1861 did Alabama join the Confederacy? .--Kennin< —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.197.26.136 (talk) 16:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

County numbers

What is the state numerical value of each county? /* History */ Alabama has state issued license plates that counties are idenitified by a numerical value eg. Jefferson County=1; Mobile County=2; Montgomery County=3; Madison County=4 and Baldwin County=5 Is there a list of each county with it's numerical value? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.191.212.31 (talk) 18:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Tag numbers 1-3 are the top 3 counties in population (Jefferson, Mobile & Montgomery). The rest of the 67 counties are in alphabetical order. I think this is too detailed to go in this article. One on the Alabama DOT would be more like it maybe. -Fnlayson (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
There's more on this at List of counties in Alabama. --Dystopos (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks, that's even better. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Events

List of events should include associated cities. --Parkwells (talk) 13:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Famous Alabamians

Should the list of Famous Alabamians include only Alabama NATIVES (i.e. place of birth), and change the section heading to say such, or also those who obtained their fame while residents of Alabama? I'm thinking of such recently removed individuals as George Washington Carver who was a Missouri native, but rose to fame in Alabama and lived here for 47 years. I propose we should include such people as they may be more closely associated with the state than those who where born in Alabama, then quickly moved away with no further ties. Thoughts? Civilengtiger (talk) 05:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

When I edited the article to add the wiki links, I checked each person to see if they were born in AL. I was thinking of each person as being NATIVE and didn't consider them as just living there for a period of time or becoming famous there. Whatever is decided, I'm good with it. Jmerchant29 (talk) 06:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to add back George Washington Carver and Booker T. Washington to the list. They lived most of their lives in AL even though they were not born there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmerchant29 (talkcontribs) 13:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Looks great to me, thanks for the thoughtful consideration and contributions Jmerchant29. Best wishes.Civilengtiger (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Mississippians

I changed the unreferenced popular myth that the Mississippian culture was of Mesoamerican origin, with a few lines about the importance of Moundville to the understanding of the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex. It's all backed up with citations. Hope I haven't stepped on anyones toes, but this is the current concensus amongst historians and archaeologists.Heironymous Rowe (talk) 06:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

SAR 21

Hi y'all! Just wondering, does anyone have reference or news pertaining to the SAR 21 being use by SWAT team(s) in Alabama? Please let me know if you do, thanks! ...Dave1185 (talk) 06:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiMiniAtlas

The WikiMiniAtlas, at the top of the article, has a link to a term at bottom left. I have tried to find a way to have it corrected, but I am informed this may take weeks or months. I propose that the {{Coor}} be removed, periodically checked, then restored when the mistake is corrected. Is there any objections? cygnis insignis 15:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Condeleeza Rice mentioned twice

In the famous Alabamians section, Condeleeza Rice is credited more than once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.168.113 (talk) 03:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It's fixed now. Qqqqqq (talk) 03:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

In re: 1968 election

Wallace was the official Democratic nominee in Alabama in '68. If one voted a straight Democratic ticket that year, their presidential vote went for Wallace. To vote for Humphrey, they had to cast a vote for "National Democratic" which was an African-American political movement in Alabama at the time.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=1&year=1968&f=0&off=0&elect=0

Also, in 1964, Johnson wasn't even on the ballot in the state. http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=1&year=1964&f=0&off=0&elect=0


In 1948, Thurmond was the official Democratic candidate and Truman was kept off the ballot entirely.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?fips=1&year=1948&f=0&off=0&elect=0


To this end, I feel that the table needs to be edited to reflect this fact.

--Genovese12345 (talk) 04:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Never had a major league sports team

Sentence reads "Alabama does not have a major professional sports team." This borders on Appeal to pity!  :) It is WP:POV to perform a negative inventory on what is not in Alabama that "someone" has thought necessary to apologize for or imagines that the state is lacking. This would be a huge list if carried to extremes: "has the Olympics ever been held here"? With 45 presidents and 50 states, you'd think an Alabaman would have been president by now! No national monuments, etc. etc. lst's inventory what is there instead of WP:POV suggesting what should be there. Student7 (talk) 20:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Just removed some of this POV type wording: "Alabama is the second largest state by population that does not have a major professional sports team." -Fnlayson (talk) 23:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Users keep adding this type stuff without any kind of a reference. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:35, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, and think this is fair. It is WP:Notable that a state with a large population doesn't have a major league sports franchise; if this is not so then there are a whole host of edits across Wikipedia that need to be made, starting with this one: U.S. states without major sports teams. It's also a pair of simple facts: Alabama is, in fact, the second-most populous state without a major sports franchise; both Alabama's population and the fact that it has no such franchise are listed on this very page. Furthermore, the significance of the "second-most populous state" formulation is that many reasonable observers would conclude that Alabama is indeed, the most populous such state, by dint of the fact that the Virgina page lists, in almost exactly the same wording, that it is the most populous such state with the caveats that the Washington Redskins and Washington Capitals are headquartered in Virginia. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 21:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, the Alabama sentence was readded. The Virginia details were omitted as being irrelevant to this article. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I explained the relevance and would appreciate an actual response. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 06:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
The explanation for removing is already provided with the post at the top of this section. -Fnlayson (talk) 12:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Inventorying what a place doesn't have is counterproductive and not useful IMO. There are 50 states. Not all of them are going to have major league teams, or major Coast Guard Stations, or Parks for Grizzly Bears, or Disneyworlds, or Statues of Geronimo, Eiffel towers, or whatever. The list of what every place doesn't have is sufficient to bore any reader. Which is why we don't list them. Thede are not WP:TOPIC. Student7 (talk) 03:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Look, there are three arguments going on here:
1) There are no references -- This is absurd; everything in question (the absence of a franchise, the relative populations of the states in question) are simple facts and don't need attribution.
2) The absence of something isn't notable -- Obviously in this case it is, if people keep adding it, it's noted on several states' and cities' pages, and there's an entire page that's five years old devoted to the subject.
3) The Virginia details are irrelevant to Alabama -- These are indeed relevant as many reasonable observers would conclude that it's appropriate to consider Alabama the largest state without a major franchise, due to the headquartering of the Washington teams. This argument has not been replied to, just labeled as irrelevant and dismissed out-of-hand. I repeat, I would appreciate and actual response. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 19:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Given that there's a whole section on professional sports teams in Alabama, mentioning that there are no major league teams seems appropriate. I don't think it necessary to include the extra detail about it being the largest such state by population. Perhaps that information is best conveyed by a link to U.S. states without major sports teams, where that condition can be explained in more detail. --Dystopos (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I also edit many cities. Some of them don't have "major league sports teams." Poor them. Again we have Appeal to pity. Feel sorry for poor us!  :( Come on! Let's present what Alabama has and stop trying to inventory what they don't have. They don't have much of a seacoast. Mountains are mangy by Western US standards, some people may not like the food (I about gagged on one restaurant's idea of "cheese grits"- a slab of cheese, unmelted, on instant grits!). Inventory that! (whine). Cross state roads stink. Except for turnpikes, lots of roads stink. Too hot in summer; too cool in winter. Lousy ballet. Lousy opera.
Just present the facts. Facts are not what you don't have, they consist of what you have. "Fewer grade A chefs than any other state east of the Mississippi" is not a credible inventory, however accurate it may be! We don't inventory the fact that Wikipedia has fewer people over 6'6" than any other major encyclopedia no matter how much space it is given on what passes for "news" on television. If editors would spend sufficient time in inventorying what states and municipalities have, there would be a lot more informative articles. I don't care to hear that Istanbul has never won a superbowl! There are a lot of interesting things in Istanbul that are worth inventorying. Student7 (talk) 23:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The absence of a thing is indeed a fact, and often a notable one. Among other things, quantum physics, social science research, and espionage all depend on analyzing what's missing. And for the third time, the existence of this page demonstrates notability in this particular instance. As for accusations of bias, I think this reveals more about the reader than the writer. The fact of this absence can inspire a person to pity ("Alabama deserves a team and is unfairly deprived"), contempt ("something's wrong with Alabama for not being able to support a team"), or anything in between. I came at it from pure curiosity -- one might expect major franchises to track directly with population sizes, does the data support that? -- but this is immaterial. How any given person interprets facts is irrelevant to their existence. I would appreciate fewer casual accusations of POV problems; I'm clearly not some partisan with an axe to grind. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your agreement with the fallacy Appeal to pity. But your agreement doesn't seem to have translated to Wikipedia policy which is to eliminate fallacies from textual material. My main concern is overloading articles with negative inventories. This is not the first I have read BTW. Another city thought they were "notable" (non-notable? infamous? I don't know what they were trying to achieve) because they didn't have a particular fast food chain represented in the city! In their case, they were glad they didn't have it. They had picketed to keep it out! Encyclopedic concerns prevailed and they are not listed for that. I have not seen a negative inventory yet succeed. A comprehensive list of what Alabama (and every other state and place) does not have would be much too large and uninteresting.
The idea of any article is to put the best foot forward for the subject. Not the worst foot forward. It sounds a bit WP:COATRACK and WP:SOAPBOX as well. After which, the subject/topic may be exposed to criticism. I suppose if someone really important were to criticize Alabama for discouraging a major league team.... In other words, it is gratuitously negative as construed.
I'm not too thrilled with this and may renege, but how about, "Out of 50 states, there are x states with no major league sports teams, of which Alabama is one." With a real solid reference from a source outside Alabama? This is good only if there are less than (say) ten states or so without any major league teams. If there are 15 or 20, it's hardly a rare case.
Also, does "major league sports teams" only include your definition of football, baseball, basketball and soccer, or does it include table tennis, lacrosse, rugby, etc. (In other words, someone else's more inclusive definition). That would simply create an ongoing problem with wording that it would be nice to avoid, and just another example of why negative inventories should not occur. Incidentally, I am not the only person you would have to convince!  :) Student7 (talk) 14:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
The only fallacy being engaged in here is the slippery slope argument that inclusion of one significant absence will lead to this absurd scenario of comprehensive negative inventories. The idea of an article is to put neither the best nor the worst foot forward, it's to state the notable facts. The notion of it as Coatrack or Soapbox is frankly risible -- it's a single line entry that speaks to a directly connected fact about the state. I repeat, interpreting this as negative, much less gratuitously so, says much more about the reader than the writer.
As for which sports are major, it's the definition given here and here. If you have a problem with that definition, take it up on those discussion pages. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 14:57, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually, notability for one article does not signify relevance for another. Otherwise they'd all be one big monster article. Which is why we try to confine articles to essentials. And why articles have boundaries.
And we do put the best foot forward as a prelude to the rest of the article, otherwise no article. "Time said Jim was a wonderful man." Now, and only now, can another editor add, "Newsweek said he stinks." But using the last statement alone is rather WP:COATRACK. Student7 (talk) 17:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Of course notability and relevance are not the same thing. Relevance doesn't seem to be in question; obviously a fact concerning Alabama is relevant to the Alabama article. My edit has been (I think) described as not a notable fact, I've addressed why it is both notable and a fact, and haven't heard an on-point reply to either. As I said, no serious observer would characterize a one-line observation of a fact that's directly connected to the article as Coatrack. I'm also confused as to whether you think my edit is defending Alabama (your "Appeal to Pity" language) or attacking it (your "not best foot" language). I actually think that speaks pretty well to its neutrality.
Let's start over and try to work to a compromise. I would like to make this the opening paragraph of the section, before the table:
"Alabama is the second-most populous U.S. state without a major professional sports league franchise (it is the most populous if one considers Virginia to be the home of the NFL's Washington Redskins and NHL's Washington Capitals, which have their practice facilities and operational headquarters in Northern Virginia). Alabama has several professional teams including four minor league baseball teams, and one Arena Football League team."
Please list any objections you have to this, with your reasons fully articulated, and I will attempt to either address them or propose alternate wording to satisfy them. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 03:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Question: How many states do not have a major league team? (forget size for now please). Student7 (talk) 01:04, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
25. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 18:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
It seems to me that "Like 24 other states, Alabama does not have a major league sports team" sounds pretty lame. Which is why it was suggested that we "spice it up" and say, "The second largest...." I don't know. Hard for me to get enthused. Alaska is probably the "largest!"  :) My point being that more than size comes into account here. Population of a single large city would matter more, IMO, than the population of the state itself, if widely distributed in an otherwise large state. Phoenix, for example. SLC. It seems to me that the "size of the state" is a canard which is WP:OR in this case. Because we would be introducing state size as a criterion, which is probably untrue and misleading. Student7 (talk) 14:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Alabama has several well known College sports teams, not major league teams. Mnemnoch (talk) 05:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
At this point I'm pretty baffled as to what your objection is. I think it's useful from a social science perspective to note the relationship of Alabama's population to its absence of major league sports teams. I've listed several reasons why it's notable, a demonstrable fact, and in line with several other Wikipedia entries, and haven't received a meaningful response to any of them, just an ever-shifting morass of picayune complaints. I asked for you to list your objections in a format where I could respond or modify my proposed wording, and it was ignored. I'd like to seek compromise but I'm convinced at this point you're not interested in it. Therefore I'm implementing my revision and will defend it until an administrator intervenes to settle this.Hythlodayalmond (talk) 07:27, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Politics and government

Needs to be updated for 2008 election.--Parkwells (talk) 02:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Venues, etc.

These are all local venues. They need to be deleted. They should be placed in local articles only. Student7 (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I remade the section into a gallery highlighting specific sites and events. In my opinion the photos do a good job of illustrating the cultural attractions of Alabama without going into detail better placed in the individual articles. (And this way we're not repeating the same information in two places under 3 headings) --Dystopos (talk) 23:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Sports

Yellowhammer

The state bird of Alabama is not the one referenced at Yellowhammer, which is, as it says in the very first line of the article, a Eurasian bird. The bird referenced on the Alabama official website at http://archives.alabama.gov/emblems/st_bird.html is at Northern_flicker, but is commonly referred to in the South as a yellowhammer. The same editor redirected Yellow-shafted_Flicker, a common synonym for the Northern Flicker, to Yellowhammer. I don't want to get into a revert war with anyone, so I'm posting this here. Moioci (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Seem like the Yellowhammer article really should be covering the Yellow-shafted Flicker (or vice versa). I question if "Yellowhammer" is the most common name for the Eurasian Emberiza citrinella. Both Yellowhammer and Northern Flicker articles are poorly referenced so it is difficult to say which details are correct. -fnlayson (talk) 22:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Regressive tax?

The state tax may well be regressive, but didn't seem to be demonstrated here. The ref seemed to be offhand, more of a slur than anything substansive. It needed improvement. I looked up the tax tables which seem to say that low salaries are taxed 4% or so, and higher salaries up to $100k are taxed at 5%. This is not demonstably regressive. But if there is no tax above that, then yes, I suppose so!

In any event the subsection needs to be enhanced. Okay for maybe a year or two ago, but needs beefing up with a little more concrete facts. "People making $10K are taxed at n%, while people earing $100K are taxed at y%." That is something everyone can understand as regressive, IFF it is regressive!

Also, the tone of the subsection tends to be a bit WP:SOAPBOXy. While the facts may not change, the wording should. We should not be indicating that Alabama "needs" to change. That is the current tone, and it is clearly WP:POV for that reason. Student7 (talk) 16:30, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Clearly state income tax is not regressive. Sales tax tends to be regressive since lower income earners generally spend a higher percentage of their income on food. Alabama's sale tax rate is higher that some states but has lower property than many other states too. It would take a fair bit of work to combine all the taxes and compare/rank the states. In any event, simply saying "Alabama's tax structure is one the most regressive in the United States" without some explanation or context is not good. -fnlayson (talk) 16:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Alabama's income tax may be "more" regressive than in other states, because the minimum taxable income is lower and the system of tax rates and requirements favors those whose wealth comes from sources of income other than wages (capital gains, rents, perquisites, inheritences, etc). And of course, income tax is only one source of revenues. With its relatively paltry property taxes and high sales taxes, the overall system is rather regressive. That said, Wikipedia should naturally be attributing its characterizations to independent sources. --Dystopos (talk) 19:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Birmingham/ UAB Hospital

UAB hospital is not the only Level I Trama center in the state, Huntsville Hospital is one as well. There may be others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.88.43 (talk) 08:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Combine economy into a state economy section

Economy is explained by city: Birmingham, Huntsville, Mobile, Montgomery, and Tuscaloosa. These need to be merged into a state section. It may be necessary to state a city when explaining "iron", for example, but that should be a byproduct of the discussion. Right now, it is a bottom-up explanation instead of a top-down, which is should be. This way is regionally chauvanistic. Student7 (talk) 02:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Just did this. So it looks okay superficially. The merger was a "bit" rocky and still needs smoother integration. But at least it is Alabama now and not merely a collection of cities.
Incidentally, most of the previous city writeups were great and should go there if not there already. Student7 (talk) 13:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

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Secession

An editor has consistently reverted my simplification of "declared its secession" to "seceded" since "seceded" is "quite possibly" pov. What in the world??!!!! The state seceded. Why use a contorted way of saying that? Let's make it simple for foreigners. And what is the problem, anyway? Student7 (talk) 20:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The user seems to be claiming succession did not happen, since it was later deemed illegal/null by the US Supreme Court. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

at will state employment

I would like to know how I can get this state transition from an at will employment state prefix:Talk:Alabama/" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.240.115.230 (talk) 15:48, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Graduation rate

Like all statistics on the South, education tends to look worse than the rest of the country. Sometimes (Mississippi) this is correct. It may or may not be for Alabama. The reason is that when whites are compared to whites ("up north") they often do fairly well. Similarly, when blacks are compared to blacks nationwide, they often do better than average. The cards tend to be stacked against the South when comparing everybody in one big melting pot, which the South is not. Student7 (talk) 21:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Famous Alabamians

Henry Louis (Hank) Aaron baseball player, Mobile Ralph Abernathy civil rights activist, Linden Tallulah Brockman Bankhead actress, Huntsville Hugo LaFayette Black jurist, Harlan Nat “King” Cole entertainer, Montgomery Marva Collins educator, Monroeville Bobby Goldsboro entertainer, Dothan William Crowford Gorgas army officer, physician, Mobile Zelda Sayre Fitzgerald writer, Montgomery Lionel Hampton jazz musician, Birmingham William Christopher Handy composer, Florence Emmy Lou Harris singer, Birmingham Kate Jackson actress, Birmingham Percy Lavon Julian inventor, Montgomery Helen Adams Keller author, educator, Tuscumbia Coretta Scott King civil rights leader, Marion Harper Lee writer, Monroeville Carl Lewis track athlete, Birmingham Joe Louis boxer, Lexington Willie Mays baseball player, Westfield Jim Nabors actor, Sylacauga Jesse Owens athlete, Danville Rosa Parks civil rights activist, Tuskegee Jimmie Rodgers singer, Geiger David Satcher surgeon general, Anniston Waldo L. Semon inventor, Demopolis George Wallace governor, Clio William Weatherford (Red Eagle) Creek indian leader Heather Whitestone Miss America, Dothan Hank Williams recording artist, Georgiana Courtney Cox, actor, Mountain Brook Lionel Ritchie, recording artist, Tuskegee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.36.158 (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

See List of people from Alabama. Student7 (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Graduation rate

Like all statistics on the South, education tends to look worse than the rest of the country. Sometimes (Mississippi) this is correct. It may or may not be for Alabama. The reason is that when whites are compared to whites ("up north") they often do fairly well. Similarly, when blacks are compared to blacks nationwide, they often do better than average. The cards tend to be stacked against the South when comparing everybody in one big melting pot, which the South is not. Student7 (talk) 21:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Famous Alabamians

Henry Louis (Hank) Aaron baseball player, Mobile Ralph Abernathy civil rights activist, Linden Tallulah Brockman Bankhead actress, Huntsville Hugo LaFayette Black jurist, Harlan Nat “King” Cole entertainer, Montgomery Marva Collins educator, Monroeville Bobby Goldsboro entertainer, Dothan William Crowford Gorgas army officer, physician, Mobile Zelda Sayre Fitzgerald writer, Montgomery Lionel Hampton jazz musician, Birmingham William Christopher Handy composer, Florence Emmy Lou Harris singer, Birmingham Kate Jackson actress, Birmingham Percy Lavon Julian inventor, Montgomery Helen Adams Keller author, educator, Tuscumbia Coretta Scott King civil rights leader, Marion Harper Lee writer, Monroeville Carl Lewis track athlete, Birmingham Joe Louis boxer, Lexington Willie Mays baseball player, Westfield Jim Nabors actor, Sylacauga Jesse Owens athlete, Danville Rosa Parks civil rights activist, Tuskegee Jimmie Rodgers singer, Geiger David Satcher surgeon general, Anniston Waldo L. Semon inventor, Demopolis George Wallace governor, Clio William Weatherford (Red Eagle) Creek indian leader Heather Whitestone Miss America, Dothan Hank Williams recording artist, Georgiana Courtney Cox, actor, Mountain Brook Lionel Ritchie, recording artist, Tuskegee — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.64.36.158 (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

See List of people from Alabama. Student7 (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2012 (UTC)