Talk:Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Saints (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saints, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Saints and other individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical calendars on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Biography / Royalty and Nobility (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.
 
WikiProject Russia / History / Religion (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia.
To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the religion in Russia task force.
 
WikiProject Scouting (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Medicine (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that this article follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Out of context statement[edit]

"his mother's reliance on the starets Grigori Rasputin to treat the disease helped bring about the end of the Romanov dynasty."

This seems a rather bold and out-of-context statement for an introduction. I suggest that it is clarified extensively and backed up by adequate sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HenryCorp (talkcontribs) 19:31, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Burial place[edit]

Alexis (and his sister Maria) are the only members of the family that where not buried in the 1998 funerals. The government and the Romanov family recognize that. http://romanovfundforrussia.org/family/ce.html

The Wiki article on Nicholas II states that the daughter's remains recovered with Alexei are those of Grand Duchess Tatiana, not Maria, but that information has not yet been transferred to this page. Thoughts? Sdsures (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

You know, I seem to remember reading that a later analysis of the remains found revealed them to not be Alexei's. Can somebody please check that?--Stephen C Wells (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

This[edit]

This is quite an exercise in speculative history. RodC 23:26, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

In light of the valuable research I have done into the Imperial house of Romanov, it seems fitting that I should add a possible hitch in the history of the Imperial family. As I'm sure you are all aware, the Tsar renounced his throne for himself in one document and for his son in another. However, as the Tsar had already abdicated in the first document, prior to the second document, it brings me to the conclusion that the Tsar's right to relinquish his son's claim was totally and utterly illegal. Having abdicated formally himself, it meant that the Tsar was now the former Tsar and that his son was now the Tsar. Bringing the situation closer to home I will use the example of the Queen. If the Queen abdicates tomorrow, her son Prince Charles will succeeded automatically and should the Queen wish to relinquish his right in the near future, she would not be able to and any attempt to do it will be ignored as she would then have nothing to do with the affairs of state. The same is indeed true in the case of Alexei. Unofficially, Alexei was the Tsar and Autocrat of all the Russia's and more arguably the Tsarevich was Tsar until his death in 1918. Therefore, Michael II was never legally Tsar in the slightest sense of the word. Huw 23:06, 20 Jul 2005 (UTC)

According to one of Russia's laws of succession, I don't think Nicholas had the right to abdicate in favor of Alexei in the first place. Nicholas could not abdicate on behalf of his son at rate, regardless of whether there are two documents. However, on one hand, it was probably better for Nicholas to have abdicated for Alexei, there's no telling what might have happened to the boy, as his parents would have been forced to leave him behind if/when they went into exile. Morhange 01:26, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Move to Tsesarevitch Alexei?[edit]

I'm not sure--the title Tsarevitch had gone out of use in the 1700s, and Alexei would have been known as Naslednik Tsesarevitch Alexei, or, The Heir Tsesarevitch, but not Tsarevitch. Google defines Tsesarevich as: "literally, "son of the tsesar") is the term for a male heir apparent, the full title was Heir Tsesarevich ("Naslednik Tsesarevich"), informally abbreviated in Russia to The Heir, 'Naslednik'"

So should this be moved, or stay here? Morhange 21:07, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Article shouldn't be moved, but the title of Alexey must be corrected. Tsesarevich (not tsarevich!) was his official title after all. (ouital77 01:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC))
Tsarevich is the most widely used title in English and is the correct spelling for this article. Just as his sisters' articles refer to them as "grand duchesses" instead of the more accurate translation "grand princess," Alexei's title must remain "Tsarevich" in his article. I have reverted your changes. --Bookworm857158367 00:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but this is just a wrong title. He was never styled like this in his lifetime (officially). Do whatever you want, but for the sake to precision and accuracy, you should indicate the basic difference between the two titles - "tsarevich" is an unofficial title for any male offspring of an emperor/tsar, while the "tsesarevich" is an official title for the Heir Apparent. So, if N. II would have had any other male children, every one of them would have been called (popularly, not officially) "tsarevich", while only Alexey, as the first-born son, could have been styled as "Tsesarevich". A few letters, but a world of difference. (ouital77 17:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC))
This is an English-language article; the only usage I've ever seen in English-language articles is "Tsarevich" or "Czarevich." If the longer, more precise Russian title is included, it should be in the body of the article, not the title, with most references continuing to be to "Tsarevich." It must remain as it is. --Bookworm857158367 17:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Tsesarevich is all too complex word, and unfamiliar, should be avoided. If other alternatives fail, Alexei should then be Alexei of Russia or Alexei Nicolaievich of Russia. Arrigo 00:25, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Stay here. Tsesarevich is not widely used, too complex and utterly unfamiliar, as Arrigo points out also. It is not a feasible option. FearÉIREANNCoat of arms of Ireland.svg\(caint) 00:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

can somone please add a explaination of why he was not canonized Zapacna 10:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

He was canonized. He, his parents and his sisters were all canonized in the Russian Orthodox Church as Passion-Bearers. Ikons of the family show the entire family as saints. I'm going to remove that sentence. Morhange 00:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And did not understand: why not Tsesarevich? This is a title that should not have transferred, in any language. English title, tituty, titles are usually not translated into Russian. So why then should it be otherwise? And here at all "difficult" words? The man was given the title, regardless of whether it is a difficult word or not. Especially the title "Tsarevich" at the time simply did not exist. And the difference between the "Tsetsarevich" and "Tsarevich," - big. It is not even translated into English. You either look for a similar word in the English language, or to correct Tsesarvicha. It does not matter that many are accustomed to "tsarevich". This Wikipedia and here in the first place is important credibility. Sorry for the terrible English :) Google Translator ...

Czarevich or Tsarevich are the commonly used titles in English. The article title must stay Tsarevich, according to Wikipedia convention. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I understand the popular use of tsarevich but it is still inaccurate. The best compromise is to put a footnote explaining the actual title, which I went ahead and added.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Birth date[edit]

Is the August 12 date correct? Russia is using the Julian Calendar, so this date might be wrong. Sandy June 05:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Russia is NOT using Juian Calendar. -- tasc wordsdeeds 05:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Russia was using the Julian calendar when Alexei was born (the changeover to Gregorian occurred when 31 January 1918 was followed by 14 February 1918, though parts of the country lagged behind. So the August 12 date was not correct; Alexei was born 30 July 1904 (OS) = 12 August 1904 (NS). - Nunh-huh 16:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

This wikipedia article is specifying Aug. 12 (and old-style July 30), so should be OK.

Claimants[edit]

I read in a British newspaper some years ago about a man in the Soviet Union who claimed he was Prince Alexai. Allegedly he had been writing letters to his Uncle George in England in perfect English that had been intercepted by the KGB and that he knew his way around the royal palace. His photos of him he had some resemblance to his father. When the royal family's bodies were exhumed and he was missing I wondered if this man might have been him. Does anyone know anymore to add to this webpage? I would be most interested!

Murdered vs Executed[edit]

The reason the Imperial Family were ACTUALLY Assassinated/Murdered was a Legal one : An execution, by definition, is done by the established, recognised government. The accused ALSO must receive Due Process of Law. The Bolsheviks were usurping insurgents attempting to overthrow the recognised Provisional Government duely established. Add to this, the Imperial Family received NO Due Process of Law. Finally, Yurovsky implemented RUSE/Lies to induce the Imperial Family to go down to the Cellar room (under the guise of taking a photo of the Family). Ergo : The Imperial family were ASSASSINATED due to the insurgent/usurping character of the Bolsheviks, and because the Family received NO Process of Law, but instead were surprised with a squad of non-Russians given orders to shoot the Family. When such ruse & surprise are used against a political target, that is tantamount to Assassination. Maj. Jesse Carnes (talk) 20:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


A murder is an unflawful killing. When the order is signed by the government it is an execution. Executions can be unjust and inhumane also. You can of course claim that this execution was unlawful, but this is a POV.--Konstable 22:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Albeit with considerable reluctance, I must agree with the above. Kevin Nelson 06:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
There is some question over whether the Ural Soviet was following the orders of Lenin or decided to kill the family on its own, which would put the legality of the killings in question. There's also the question of whether the government itself was a legal entity. At the time Russia was in a state of civil war, between various White Army forces and the Red Army. I have seen it referred to as execution, assassination, and murder. I am extremely reluctant to label the killing of a thirteen year old boy a legal execution when I don't think it was. A politically-motivated murder, yes. --Bookworm857158367 14:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It was an execution for war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace. (92.12.112.25 (talk) 20:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC))

Again -- he was a deathly ill 13-year-old boy, without personal power to commit such alleged crimes. Aside from that, there are the arguments made above, which still hold. Do not revert this page again without consensus. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The whole family needed to be executed for the tens of millions of dead men, women and children they were responsible for. Plus Alexis was about to be captured by the Czechs and installed as a puppet Tsar. (92.12.113.121 (talk) 06:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC))

and he deserved to be shot because of that? Did his teenage sisters also deserve to be shot? Surtsicna (talk) 18:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Saying that the "whole family needed to be executed for the tens of millions of dead men, women and children they were responsible for" is like saying that all the Germans in the world should be executed for brutally torturing and killing up to 17 million innocent people. This kind of comments should be removed immediately, as it is not productive. Surtsicna (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Status[edit]

The article has passed sections 3), 5) and 6) and needs corrections on sections 1), 2) and 4).

Overall, the assessment is ON HOLD

The assessment is as follows :

1) Written Quality - Well written but the quotes need more prominence as they run into the text.

2) Factually Accurate - Sergey Egornov, Alexei Poutziato, Joseph Veres and Vassili Filatov are all non-existent links. The imposters need to be separated from the "Death" section and put into their own separate section. Add a sentence pointing out the the futility of the imposters trying to impersonate Tsarevich Alexis, the monarchy was so discredited that even if the Royal family had survived, there was no support for the the restoration of a Tsar Alexis, see here for the reference

[1].

3) Coverage - the article is broad in coverage and stays focused on the topic.

4) Neutrality - Some of the language used to describe Alexis as a "naughty boy" , the half paragraph starting "At age seven,,,,,," betrays a gushing sentimentality. It needs to be re-written and the language toned down, don't use a direct quote, just indirectly describe his naughty behaviour. Tsarevich Alexis was not just a boy, he was the heir to the Autocratic Romanovs. The language needs to be more neutral.

5) Stability - Article is relatively stable though I see you have had acts of vandalism by unregistered ISP users. No major edit conflicts.

6) Photos - Good use of photos. Free public domain photos are used. No fair use photos.

Corrections, as specified above, must be carried out within seven days. Contact me when they have been carried out and I will re-assess.

Tovojolo 22:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows seven days for corrections to be carried out, I have been lenient, I have allowed eight days but I am dismayed to note that not one correction was done. Therefore, I have no alternative but to announce that the article has now been assessed as a Fail.

Tovojolo (talk) 10:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

With regard to the suggestions above: while it would be perfectly reasonable to separate out the pretenders, it's silly to state that their impostures were "futile" because there was no movement to restore the monarchy: that assessment makes the mistake of overlooking the other motivations for their impersonations of Alexei. - Nunh-huh 10:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity[edit]

The family was Russian by nationality but ethnically diverse. Should we add that to this information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.64.209 (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

All Romanovs from Peter III are Germans. The correct name of the dinasty is Holstein-Gottorp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.125.6.1 (talk) 13:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Meaningless sentence in Stavka section[edit]

"Alexei's favorites were the foreigners of Belgium, Britain, France, Japan, Italy, and Serbia, and in favor, adopted him as their mascot."

This looks like the beginning of one sentence combined with the ending of another one. I can't make much sense out of it anyway. (Especially the mascot part.)

Article Title[edit]

He was the Tsesar-evich rather than just a Tsar-evich. He may have become a Tsarevich after his father's abdication, but the Wikipedia article on Edward VIII still uses his regnal title rather than his post-abdication title Duke of Windsor. I don't think the title Tsarevich was even officially used for children & grandchildren of the Tsars, but rather Grand Duke/Grand Prince, with the heir being Tsesarevich. 121.73.7.84 (talk) 11:52, 7 September 2013 (UTC)