Talk:All Saints

72.236.152.194 (talk) 19:59, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Typical caveat

the text about the Catholic holiday comes from An Old Unnameable Source whose copyright has now expired. I've attempted to verify the information in it and determine if it's still relevant, but may have missed something important. So please feel free to update, clarify, expand, refactor, etc. --KQ

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Among Christianized feasts, I've cut " Lupercalia Christianized as Candlemas" because the entry Candlemas clearly explains how Candlemas follows Christmas by 40 days, thus falling or not falling near Lupercalia by accident, depending on when Christmas is observed. These Christianized feasts are bones of contention with various Christianists, so Wikipedia needs to be fastidiously careful here. Wetman 15:59, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree, Wetman. I think "Christianize" may be the wrong term, as festivals like Easter and Christmas have Christian origin, and only the dates and some symbols of the pagan holiday have been co-opted. I think it is somewhat inappropriate to say that these festivals have pagan origin. I do not, however, feel the same about holidays that clearly do have a pagan origin, but were later blessed by the church. Any comment on my change to the link to Easter is welcome. I found it semantically incorrect to claim that Christians all over the world celebrate Pascha and not Easter, since this is not an English word (at least not a common one), and Easter and Pascha are basically the same holiday. I consider this somewhat similar to saying "In Mexico, they do not drive cars -- they drive coches" ThePedanticPrick 01:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We agree, I think, that when fundamental aspects of Saturnalia are applied to Christmas, and when Christmas supplants Saturnalia in the calendar, to say that Saturnalia has been "Christianized" is a perfectly frank way of expressing what has been co-opted. In a similar fashion, the former Christian feast of All Saints covered needs formerly catered to by the Lemuria and the "modern" one moved to November 1 occupies Samhain. To suppress any reference to Samhain and treat the November 1 date as merely coincidental, is to follow a Roman catholic hard line. We don't have to do that at Wikipedia. "Christianize" may be the "wrong" term, but it is an accurate and honest one. (Those opinionated remarks about Easter that you removed were certainly not mine! Good riddance to distracting blather, says me.)

From “Lives of saints, from the Book of Lismore” [an early 15th Gaelic century manuscript]: “fo.67 a, i. A piece entitled Scél na samhna (the story of All Saints Day).

Begins: [skipping Irish text] A certain emperor, named Phocas, assumed the Roman’s realm. Every year at samáin (All Saints day) a great assembly was held by him in Rome. This was right, for the samain was the chief solemnity of the heathen at that time, for all the gods of the world, from east to west (lit. from sunrise to sunset), were worhsipped on that day.

It then related how the Pantheon (‘dommus omnium deorum, .i.i tegduis na n-uili dhee’) was given to Boniface, and dedicated by him to all the saints. Compare the piece entitled Fagail na Samna in the Bibliotheque Nationale, Celt. Et B.1 fo. 15 b, 2.” Bernard.

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Article Title

Should this article not be retitled "All Saints Day" to avoid confusion? The article about the similar All Souls Day does include the "day" in the article title. One of these should be renamed.

"All Saints" is broader than "All Saints Day." Is the new opening better? --Wetman 22:48, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the OP - it should be filed under All Saints' Day for consistency 93.97.113.174 (talk) 07:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Definitions

If I'm not mistaken, "hollow" refers to a spirit, in the will-o'-wisp sense, and "mas" has several different meanings depending on where it comes from. I'm not confident enough in my knowledge to make the changes needlessly, though.

'Hallows'

Re: "'hallow' meaning 'holy,' and 'mas' meaning 'Mass'"

I am no linguist, but Prof. Gardner's introduction to the Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins describes how the poet "revived with profit a few obsolete native forms such as hallows (saints)". I think 'Hallows' for 'Saints' makes slightly more sense than 'Hallows' for 'Holy' as above (and far more so than 'Hollows' for 'Spirits' as suggested on the talk page) given that the feast in question was once known as 'All Hallows' but now as 'All Saints'.Dogbox 22:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

'Celebrations in Central Europe'

The article says that in Poland, Germany, and Lithuania, All Saint's Day is when people visit cemeteries. However, the All Soul's Day article suggests that it is All Soul's Day (there is even a link to an article with the Polish name of the holiday). I believe that All Soul's Day (Nov. 2) is correct in this case.

209.6.23.78 01:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)BK

Actually, people visit cemeteries and light candles on both days, some even before or after November 1 and November 2. All Saints' Day is more significant, however, since it is an official holiday.

As a name

Would someone add to this article an explanation about how 'Todos los Santos' (All Saints) is used by the King of Spain's grandchildren? I would appreciate it. This is something I have long wondered about. I think an explanation about the reason for the use, the tradition behind it, and what members of the royal family have it, would be a good place to start. --Ashley Rovira 18:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Official Name

I know that this occasion is known as the Solemnity of All Saints in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. I am uncomfortable changing this because the religious holiday is observed in other religious communities I know less about. However, it is definitely not a Feast, but a Solemnity, in the Catholic Church. MrArticleOne 17:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Narrowing of those who celebrate

The Following Sentence: "In terms of Western Christian theology, the day commemorates all those who have attained the beatific vision in heaven." Would better read: "In terms of Western Roman Catholic theology, the day commemorates all those who have attained the beatific vision in heaven." It is not celebrated in Protestantism, and to the best of my knowledge is not celebrated in other branches of Christendom. There may be some very minor exceptions, but at this point, it is less accurate than it would be with my suggested revision.

Actually, All Saints is celebrated on the liturgical calenders of the Anglican and Lutheran churches, and many parishes of the United Methodist Church also have a special service for the day. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 02:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Pagan Observation?

This article states with certainty that "the chosen day, May 13, was a pagan observation of great antiquity, the culmination of three days of the Feast of the Lemures, in which the malevolent and restless spirits of the dead were propitiated." However, other secular sources, such as the Encyclopedia Britannica, contest this claim by stating that "The origin of All Saints' Day cannot be traced with certainty, and it has been observed on various days in different places." To me, it seems like a secular attack on Catholicism to claim that the celebration of All Saints' Day definitively originated from a pagan festival. -- Ambrosiaster (talk) 20:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

"also called All Hallows"

I understand that this title was used in the past, but I don't think it is every called this any more in a living usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardson mcphillips (talk • contribs) 18:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)