Talk:Alpe d'Huez

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List of winners in chronological order[edit]

The pages for Le Tour (and other similar pages, like the World Cycling Championships) list winners in chronological order, i.e., oldest to most recent. Any particular reason this page is backwards? (It confused me for a minute.) (Is there any Wikipedia guideline for this sort of thing?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.192.188.20 (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2004

Gradient[edit]

The TdF website states that the grade is 7.9%, not 8.1% as in the article. "Km 187 - L'ALPE-D'HUEZ - 13.8 km climb to 7.9 % - H Category" (http://www.letour.com/2006/TDF/LIVE/us/1500/dprofil.html) Anyone care to comment. Otherwise, I'll chnage the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yirg (talkcontribs) 07:37, 15 July 2006

Conflicting data about Pantani's record.[edit]

The text says that Pantani's record is 37'35", but the "fastest ascent" table claims 36'50". Which is correct?

I'm not actually sure...it also says Pantani's record is one second better than Lance Armstrong's 37'36" but the tables never mention anything about a 37'35" (they do mention 37'15").

-Later Edit- However, I have found this source: http://www.gastrobiking.com/region/alpe_dhuez.html

The climb has been timed since 1994 so earlier times are not available. From 1994 to 1997 the climb was timed from a point 14.5km from the finish. Since 1999 a photo-finish system was used from 14km to the finish. These times are all taken from 13.8km from the summit ie. from the corner which marks the start of the climb. Other timings have also been taken from the road junction approximately 700m from the start of the climb.

Apparently, certain times have been corrected to be from 13.8km from the finish. I will put this in the article.

Also see cyclingnews.com report on 2004 TdF: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage16 Note: Armstrong's time over the 13.8 km of climbing (excluding the 1.7 km of flat at the start) was 37'36, one second slower than Marco Pantani's "official" record of 37'35 set in 1997. But Pantani's time was actually 36'55 when measured from the start of the climb (as Armstrong was today). Pantani also rode 36'50 for the climb in 1995, which remains the best performance up l'Alpe d'Huez. RosinDebow 03:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added another para which I hope adds additional information to the discussion, as well as the link to the Cycling News story. GuyWR

The links you guys provide have conflictive data. Pantani's best performance over the 13.8 km of climbing was in 1997 (37:35). I have just checked several cycling magazines from the time as well as videos and the final timings of other riders finishing after the winners. I have therefore updated the table which I think is now 99% correct. For example Pantani rode 38:04 in 1995, Indurain and Zulle who finished 2nd and 3rd respectively arrived 1:24 minutes later, therefore their climbing times were 39:28. I did the same for other years.

- The table looks good, but might be in need of an update already. Procycling mag, Jan 2007, lists the following times from the 2006 stage of the Tour. Frank Schleck: 40'46"; Floyd Landis and Andreas Kloden: 38'36". GuyWR

I had added Floyd Landis at 38'34" and Andreas Kloden at 38'35" which was from the July 19th, 2006 edition of l'Equipe -- I assume that the TdF doesn't offer official times.. these are probably obtained unofficially from individuals at various reporting angencies. It should also be noted that this table is VERY incomplete. scotts 21:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the table is very incomplete - a bunch of times from several sources and some potentially dubious historical numbers (where did Coppi's time come from, for example?). I wonder, though, if we're getting close at all; or, would it be better represented as a 'selection of times for the climb' rather than a ranking of the supposed fastest? GuyWR

I made some further changes to the table, based on an article in the UK magazine Procycling (procycling.com) - see my note above - that also includes historical times over the last 20 years. I therefore added some new times at the bottom of the table, which appear plausible given the individuals and the eras. I also added Jose Azevedo, only 4" slower than Kloden in 2004; the problem with this 'count back' approach for the ITT is that it assumes all the riders did the same time for the first stretch from Bourg d'Oisans to the base of the climb (which is a reasonable assumption given the short distance), so I've left it at 'The Ace' for now and not added any others. GuyWR

"First , sorry about my bad english. The statistics are completely wrong! Have you ever timed the races yourselves!? I timed the performance of the 1997 alp d`huez today from a live recording. From the start of the climb, from the curve were the climb beginns to the finishline of the Tour de France Pantanis time was 36.42. Ullrichs time was 37.28. Ullrich is the second fastest ever on the climb. Not Armstrong. Armstrongs best times from the start of the climb were 37.36 and 38.01.The times from Matt Rendells book are bullshit. First, they were obviously not timed from the start of the climb. Second they were not even timed from the same place. Pantani was equally fast in 1995 as in 1997 and its impossible he was that much slower in 95 between the roadjunction or wereever they started the clock to the actual start of the climb.if you have doubts why dont you time the performances yourselves! my english is not good enough.For accurate statistics(more or less)http://grimpee.alpe.9online.fr/references.html And stop quoting Ligett!, Fredrik T " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.244.209.92 (talk) 02:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not surprised if there are problems with the timings, but I don't think it is possible to accurately time from a television broadcast. There is no way to consistently and accurately measure the time when each rider passes over the starting point and the finish line without having timing equipment at the site, and there might be edits or delays even in a live broadcast. Except for the ITT, the climb was not officially timed, so in my opinion having an accurate table is an exercise in futility, and an example of the kind of statistics that don't belong in Wikipedia. The table is a mish mash of times from different sources and measured at different locations and so it is not verifiable at all. I propose replacing the table with a sentence stating what the fastest ascent was, which is verifiable in several places (Pantani at 37'35" in 1997). RosinDebow 05:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

" Regarding the 1997 television broadcast: It shows the peloton as it approaches bourgh d´oisans(village at the foot of the climb) it shows the peloton as it goes through the town, as it turns left from the junction a few hundred meters from the climb. It shows exactly when they hit the climb and from then on the leading riders all the way to the finish. There might be delays when they show Casagrande for example, halfway up, but definetly not at the start or at the finish of the climb. Pantanis time was about 36.42-36.43. Dont know the circumstances around the timing 1994-1997 or the so called "record" of 37.35, but if it stands as a record and not the actual fastest time, the reason can only be they had some sort of official, electronic timing from some point before the climb. The way to verifie this is contacting those responsible for the timing, and not some sport journalist on the internet(who might even have got it from Wikipedia). When done, my sugestion is to state the official "record" and the circumstces surrounding it together with the fastest time of the actual climb,and info of how this was obtained(manual timing). For sure there is info. on the internet of how Armstrong was just 1 second shy of the record of Pantani and so on, but almost everything written is unfortunately incorrect. The list of fastest ascents on this site is just unacceptable. You cant have times measured from different starting points on the same list. http://grimpee.alpe.9online.fr/references.html Fredrik T" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.244.209.92 (talk) 12:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I added the grimpee link and some additional comments. Anyone is free to remove the table. It would be a shame to lose all that information, so perhaps the best approach would be to have a list of times, without the ranking - but in order - with an explanation as to the difficulty in making comparisons. GuyWR

GuyWR, thanks for your efforts in improving the article. But I think that the times as well as the ranking are problematic - given that the circumstances are different, they should not appear in the same table, and reconciling data from different sources could be considered original research (see Synthesis). I propose moving the table to this Talk page instead of deleting it entirely. RosinDebow (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd hate to see the table disappear in its entirety given that it's a good record of times, however rough they may be. I'd have no objections to it being shifted. We might want to replace it with a statement regarding the record - with the different times from different sources, which are already on the page. I'll chip in at some point, I'm sure. Until then, good luck! GuyWR —Preceding comment was added at 05:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Due to popular demand, the table is now here. I've added some text as a replacement and I'll look forward to subsequent edits. Cheers. GuyWR

Rank Time Name Year Country
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997  Italy
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004  United States
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994  Italy
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001  United States
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995  Italy
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997  Germany
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006  United States
8 38' 35" Andreas Kloden 2006  Germany
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004  Germany
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997  France
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003  Spain
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004  Germany
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004  Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Indurain 1995  Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995   Switzerland
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995  Denmark
17 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991  Italy
18 39' 45" Miguel Indurain 1991  Spain
19 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001  Germany
20 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006  Luxembourg
21 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003  Kazakhstan
22 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003  United States
23 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989  France
24 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987  Colombia
25 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989  Spain
26 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989  Netherlands
27 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952  Italy
28 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986  United States
29 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986  France

*ITT Stage in 2004.

Basque Rider[edit]

Is it really fair to characterize Iban Mayo as a Basque rider? The American riders and not referred to by their ethnic origin. Shouldn't he just be called Spanish for these purposes? User: Nlsanand

Evito 05:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I have made the change, as no one has spoken. 1 August, 2006. User: Nlsanand

I kind of think that Iban Mayo would prefer to think of himself as Basque. I mean, Basque are an nation inside of a nation-state with a separate identity. I think the comparison to American riders is actually not that relevant. Jul 13 2007 User: JonnyDomestik

dutch mountain[edit]

i wonder if the title "dutch mountain" is at all relevant to this article regardless of the amount of dutch cyclists that actually won the tour the France etappe on this mountain, the fact remains that only the dutch call it the dutch mountain, based on some arrogant notion that becaues "we call it like that in holland, so it's a fact and should be in the article , cause after all ,we won there more then others" big deal

you will not hear French folks , let alone folks that actually live on the mountain call it "the dutch mountain"

furthermore, Alpe d'Huez is a lot more then simply a mountain stage of the tour de FRance, it's also a ski resort and so on...

and let's face it , everybody knows that holland is flat as a pancake so a dutch mountain ... in their dreams

Please, there's no need to attack the Dutch. Here's a couple of non-Dutch sites that mentions Dutch Mountain: [1] [2] [3]. I'm reverting your edit for these reasons. --Turbothy 11:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, by the way - highest point in Denmark is only half as high as the highest point in the Netherlands, and Michael Rasmussen wins the polka dot jersey for the second consecutive year now, so clearly nationality has no impact on whether you can ride a bike up a mountain. --Turbothy 11:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ski hill details?[edit]

The article starts by claiming that the Alpe is a 1850 m ski hill. Looking at the image one cannot help but be confused, as it looks like the slope in the background is perhaps 150 m at most. I noticed later on the page that the BOTTOM of the hill is at 1850 m... So is the ski area of the hill actually much smaller? If so, this should be what appears in the intro! Maury

the whole mountain is a ski resort, it links up with the "Les Deux Alpes" resort
the article focusses to much on cycling and as such the pic show roads, not ski resorts
just do an image search on google for "alpe d'huez ski" ,and you'll see
it's actually one of the better places to go skiing in france, if you can go outside the common holidays...


the pic in the article is basically the top of the mountain that's allready high up in the mountain , during winter that area is white, that road isn't accessible then either —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.207.127 (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2006

Bends named after riders?[edit]

Aren't some of the bends named after riders? I know one of them is named after Joaquim Agostinho but what about the rest? Wouldn't it be an interesting addition to the article? Orta 01:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added this information to the table of winners. Doctormatt 23:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Map of the climb[edit]

The map of the climb is actually inaccurate, as it shows the final corners going to the right above Huez, when they should go to the left and enter the town of Alpe d'Huez from the left of the picture. GuyWR

I was just watching the 1997 Alpe d'Huez and Pantani comes from the right of the screen which is a left turn. The map looks good to me. If this is solved then can you remove this conversation? July 13 User:JonnyDomestik.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the picture with the map looks like a scan of a postcard, in which case it would be a copyright violation and doesn't belong on in Wikipedia at all. Someone want to get in a plane and take an original photo? RosinDebow 12:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I have just visited the equivalent French wikipedia page - the route shown there is correct. New to wikipedia - can someone copy the correction to teh english language version? The approach is from the left of town as the photo is shown - when you watch race coverage, there is a flat bit as they accelarate across town left to right, but not until they are in the buildings. sorry, new to this so don't know how to take action, only to raise the issue!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Trimike (talkcontribs) 20:34, 26 July 2007

The image at the french article appears to be a "corrected" version of the image from this article: you can see some of yellow line remains, though decolored a bit. It looks terrible. Both articles need a better, correct image. (p.s. remember to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~)) Doctormatt 02:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The route does indeed go through the town (I watched it in 2006). Velonews has a good map, but I don't think it can be poached for here. [4] Anyway, I just added the map from the French site. GuyWR

List of times for climb[edit]

Some times from the 2004 ITT still need to be added to the table. 136 riders finished inside 48 minutes in 2004. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.161.145 (talk) 22:27, 26 April 2007

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Alpe d'HuZes[edit]

I moved this text from the article to here since it is not pertinent to the Tour de France section but may be worthwhile RosinDebow (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Since 2006 some Dutch riders are climbing the Alpe d'Huez six times a dag, for the action 'Alpe d'huZes'Stichting Alpe d'HuZes. They collect money with this action for the fight against cancer.

...[edit]

Lance Armstrong's time from 2004 (37'36") makes him only the fifth fastest, highlighting how the 1990s saw notably faster ascents than other eras. [...] The increase in climbing speed in the 1990s had been attributed to the use of doping products, primarily Erythropoietin or EPO. A number of riders with sub-40' times, such as Alex Zülle, Riis, and Virenque, have confessed to using such products during this time. Strong evidence also exists that Pantani's records were also achieved with the assistance of EPO.

It seems you absolutely have always to find a reason to justify the fact that your great hero best-of-all-time Lance Armstrong is not the best even in this occasion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.2.110.251 (talk) 17:24, 13 July 2008

I agree with above comment. Please note the autopsy results for Pantani, that excluded intense and continuative use of EPO. The "Marco Pantani" wiki page in english, has a reference to this issue. There is no proof of EPO use for Pantani. Please correct this. I'm going to inform Pantani's family of this shame. Hi. Roberto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.241.31.125 (talk) 11:42, 3 June 2010

mistakes in the list of times[edit]

In 1997 Jan Ullrich was 20 to 24 seconds faster than Lance Armstrong in 2001. Ullrich needed 37min 48-50sec for the climb itself (measured from the actual beginning of the climb: left turn in Bourg d'Oisans hitting the first 10% ramp), Armstrong needed 38min 10-12sec from the. This can be observed and proven by the available TV recordings one can find on the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.135.163 (talk) 15:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The table shows Laurent Fignon being 25 seconds faster than Pedro Delgado in 1989, yet they started the climb in the same group and they crossed the finish line together. Matteomjb (talk) 10:56, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems there are still some corrections to be made about the ascent times, especially about the times of 2006. Frank Schleck won the stage that year at the summit of the Alpe d'Huez. Yet, according to the table, his time of 2006 is only ranked as the 20th fastest ascent while the times of Landis and Kloden, that same year, are ranked 7th and 8th respectively. Landis is said to have made 38'34 and Kloden 38'35. It is obvious that they couldn't have crossed the line more than two minutes before the stage winner. Same thing for Pierre Rolland in 2011. Being the stage winner, he could not have arrived 36 seconds after Samuel Sanchez. Unfortunately, I don't have the statistics, but I hope someone can check for the accurate times and change the list.--Onimarou (talk) 20:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The times are all over the place, some of the times appear to be based on 14.454km but some of the times on the list are based on 13.8km. The current accepted distance is 13.8. it really needs to be fully updated. Dimspace (talk) 22:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Wording issue[edit]

I've reworded the following sentence:

"Lance Armstrong, feigned vulnerability earlier in the stage, appearing to be having an off-day. At the foot of the Alpe, however, Lance came to life, and after peering back into Jan Ullrich's eyes, gesturing words to the effect of "come with me if you can" (which Ullrich couldn't), he rocketed up the Alpe in 38 minutes flat, two minutes ahead of Ullrich."

To become:

Lance Armstrong feigned vulnerability earlier in the stage, appearing to be having an off-day. On the climb of Alpe d'Huez, Armstrong moved to the front of the group, looking back at Ullrich before accelerating away from the field to claim the victory, 1:59 ahead of Ullrich.

I think my edit is a more neutral way of conveying the same information. Also, I am debating the best way to end the second sentence. Ullrich is already mentioned, so it'd be nice to avoid mentioning his name twice in the same sentence. However, using "him" in its place is vague, and I can't think of a better way of putting it. Can anybody else think of a better way of writing this? 202.36.179.66 (talk) 00:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Definitely more neutral, thanks. How about this for the last sentence:

On the climb of Alpe d'Huez, Armstrong moved to the front of the group, looking back at Ullrich before accelerating away from the field to claim the victory; Ullrich finished 1:59 behind.

SeveroTC 10:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

2011 Ascent Times[edit]

Seems we don't know all that much about the ascent times from 2011 and how they slot into the order, we ought to collate them here. From here already and from Twitter- as unreliable as that may be- I've got 41:20 and 42:01 for Rolland, 41:24 for Sanchez (later removed by whoever put it up on here), and 41:33 for Contador. Any properly sourced figures, because by the looks of it there'll be quite a few added to the list from today. 195.188.107.125 (talk) 20:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Doping effected climbs[edit]

I have reverted the edit of the doping affected times to its original description of "Evidence/Allegations that performance enhancing drugs or doping affected ascent time" prior to January this year. Edits were made in January including all cases of doping, and there is a strong argument, that a rider testing positive in 2006 is totally irrelevant to his time up the climb in 2011. Doping references should really only be used to explain the performance in question, not cast a POV on the time based on other points int eh riders career 23:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimspace (talkcontribs)

Split article[edit]

This article needs to be split into two - one dealing with the cycling aspects and the other with the winter sports. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

dont think it needs splitting yet, as there would be basically nothing left of the original article. However, I would strongly argue that the Skii'ing section complete with infobox should be before the cycling section. It is a ski'ing destination for a large part of the year. its a cycling destination for one day, every three or four years. Propose that the small ski'ing section gets moved about the longer cycling section, which will probably give the page a bit more flow anyway. Dimspace (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2013 (UTC)