Talk:Alps

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Untitled[edit]

Why are there so many individual articles? Most of this could easily go into one article. Are there any special reasons? Kosebamse 08:51, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

At the end it states: "Originally based on content from an old encyclopedia. Update as needed." I am also not happy with this article, it is on my "to do" list. But if you want to start, feel free to improve the article! :-) Fantasy 09:28, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think the original Alps article in 1911EB was very long (from a 1911 point of view, the Alps were the most interesting mountains in the world, not least because many other ranges were still largely unexplored), and had to be broken up into 32k pieces. Before talking about merging, read each sub-article and decide which sentences you can drop, and update with 20th-century info, then see how big the result will be. Stan 17:47, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This group of articles is quite weird. The part of the alps in Eastern Styria and Lower Austria are completely missing. Several peaks there still reach above 2000m (e.g. the Schneeberg). If the Semmering pass is not alpine, then I don't know what. AFAIR, the Wienerwald (Vienna Woods) reaching into the outskirts of Vienna (highest peak being the Schöpfl with 900m or so) and the Leitha mountains at the border between Lower Austria and Burgenland are considered the last outlyers of the alps. The hills north of the Danube don't belong to the Alps and are geologically much older. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.204.69 (talkcontribs) 11 August 2004


Introductary section

please change Third reich to nazi germany in the sentence: "In World War II the Third Reich invaded the Alpine countries, with the exception of Switzerland and Liechtenstein; Adolf Hitler kept a base of operation in the Bavarian Alps throughout the war." The term "third reich" is problematic because first it was used (shortly)in nazi propaganda language, and second it encourages interpretation of history that see nazi- germany as a legitimate successor of the second and first reich in a linear development of germany within okkzidental culture. Therefore the term should be replaced by the term that is used in the wiki- page to that the link is refering to: nazi- germany. As I just saw, within wikipedia, the term "third reich" is widely acepted meanwhile it`s use is (as far I know) discussed ambivalent within historians discourse. I find the arguments outlined shortly above though striking an therefore I pleed for chaning the term as suggested. 83.77.1.135 (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Groups of the Alps[edit]

I replaced the rather weird (and restrictive) subgroupings from the Britannica in the Eastern Alps with the more common ones which can be found in the German Wikipedia. Articles about many of the groups need to be written. Also, the same should be done for the Western Alps.Martg76 21:42, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Improvement[edit]

I improved the article some, added sub titles, links to sub articles and summaries, but there still is work to do. The sub articles need major work since they are all mostly copies of the 1911 encyclopedia. Elfguy 19:25, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess the sections "overview" and "geographical limits" could be merged to "geography", and the subarticles Limits of the Alps and Main chain of the Alps could go into something like Geography of the Alps. Markussep 19:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

HUH[edit]

what language do the apilation people speak????? i need to knwo

If you are referring to Alpine people, as opposed to Apilation people (apilation people are found in North America)

I assume you mean Alpine people. In France, they speak French

In Switzerland they speak *Swiss German (to the north), French (to the Sount West), Romanish (a very small group to the south) and Italian (to the south and south-east).

  • Swiss German has its origin in the Habsburg Empire, it is significantly different in pronounciation to International German or "High German".

Many words of Swiss German are also spelled differently to High German.

In Austria they speak German

In Lichtenstein they speak German (like Swiss German)

In Italy they speak Italian

Let's not forget Slovenia, where Slovenian is spoken. WorldWide Update 15:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
In some parts of the Italian Alps, French, German and Rheato-romanish (Ladino) are spoken. Woodwalker 21:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The Name Alpes[edit]

In the article the name of the Alpes: "The word "Alps" was taken via French from Latin Alpes (meaning "the Alps"), which may be influenced by the Latin words albus (white) or altus (high), or a Celtic word."

Which Celtic word is being referred to. Is this simply speculation or is there some etymological basis to the comment?

the statement is ripped off from here, where we find the additional "according to Servius". dab () 11:03, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly sorry for not registering, I am not sure how to do that. Thanks for the prompt reply, but as someone who natively speaks a Celtic language I am curious. For example, in my own native Irish the words "The Alps" are "Na hAlpa" Suggesting to me that we took the word from Latin.

But as the comment is here in an encyclopedia, the lack of citation is troubling. Maybe you can add to the article by saying that Servious suggested that it had a Celtic origin.

A very interesting article bye the way, thanks for writing it! Richard

Actually, I have just done some Etymological research in Gealic (Irish Celtic) and WOW! you do learn something new every day!

The old Gealic word for mountain is infact "alp", bearing in mind the Romans never arrived in Ireland, so no Latin in the old version of the language. Remarcable.

Again thanks for the quick reply which appears to have cleared that one up quickly!

Richard

Celtic languages were spoken in France and Northern Italy in the first millenium BC. So the origin of the name Alps does not have to be founf in Ireland. Woodwalker 21:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have altered the passage in question based on the above. It is unlikely that Romans would make such a slurring language derivation into Latin and on the other hand derivations from the languages of the people they considered to be barbarians. On the other hand borrowings especially for place names associated with those peoples was very common. Lycurgus 02:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


The name of the mountain comes from Turkish like a BALKAN Balkan means in old Turkish=mountain.in Turkish Alp means= brave,manly,violent,strong. I think these words are suitable for ALPs.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.200.83 (talk) 13:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Turkish was spoken anywhere near the Alps in the time when they were first referred to as "Alpes", given that the Turks only arrived in present Turkey from Central Asia in the 11th century. Markussep Talk 14:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I cant say anything about Alpes but you are wrong "Turks only arrived ...11th Century". What about Huns and Atilla??? And also Turkic(and I don't understand this word we are saying for all of them Turk) tribes were inside Magyars. And What is meaning of Huns? Ogur-Tukurgur-Ungur-Hunugur Means= Nine Arrow... Ogur=Arrow in old Turkish. Also interested with Bulgars(Proto-Turks) and Sabar(Siberian Turks).Everybody can research that.Whats the name of Magyars today? Hungarian. Alp is very very old Turkish word.Look at Orkhon(and old Hungarian Script 10th century).I dont saying thats certainly true.But Maybe..
The word "alpes" was already used by the Romans long before the Huns arrived in the 4th century AD. I'm ready to believe that "alp" is an old Turkish/Turkic word, but whether it has any relation to the mountains is questionable at most. It probably also means something in Quechua or Maori language. Markussep Talk 16:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

"Alp" is indeed a Turkish honorific, as in Alp Arslan. The Turkish term has nothing whatsoever to do with the name of the Alps. --dab (𒁳) 16:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Bu what about Etruscan Civilization ??? They lived Toscana. Near Alps. And their DNA's same with modern Anatolian Turks. Please read these


http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/ETRUSCANDICTIONARY.htm RUNİC ETRUSCAN


Monaco[edit]

Any reason why Monaco isn't mentioned? Its situated at the southern tip of Maritime Alps isn't it?

More or less, the main chain of the Maritime Alps is about 40 km further north. Monaco's highest point is 140 m, I think that's not really alpine. Markussep 20:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Any other Wikipedia page in other languages I checked does mention Monaco.

Monaco is not an Alpine country, at best it's at the base of foothills of the Alps. Do you have reliable non-wikipedia sources for your claim? Markussep Talk 14:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Alps from space[edit]

The caption of the Alps from "space" is a little odd. It says that the picture is of the Alps from space. It obviously did not come from outer space. The caption, to me, implies it is an actual picture taken from outer space from a spacecraft when in reality it is from google earth or something similar. What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ole10589 (talkcontribs) 01:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Alp redirects to Australian Labor Party[edit]

Can links to Alp be fixed to point to Alps instead? Just a heads up that people are being redirected confusingly. DavidRF 14:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Alp used to redirect here for a long time, and the incoming links shows that that's still the most likely intention. --Stemonitis 14:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"Alp" cannot be used to refer to the Alps: the singular, "an alp", refers to an alpine pasture, not the mountains. --dab (𒁳) 16:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Reclassified to C-class[edit]

This article does not meet current B-class criteria because it is not suitably referenced. The next step would be to locate reliable sources for any important or controversial material (such as the claim about fauna being more common in protected areas). If your project does not use the new "C" class then please reclassify to "Start" class. Stepheng3 (talk) 04:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Mont Blanc Elevation Discrepancies[edit]

Why is the elevation of Mont Blanc on this page 4,808 metres (15,774 ft) and on the Mont Blanc page listed as 4,810 metres (15,781 ft)?? Phil --199.46.154.96 (talk) 21:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The summit is covered by an ice cap. Its height does vary. 62.3.255.103 (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I have also just removed .45m from the height in the intro paragraph. This is spurious accuracy, as the summit is covered by a 15m ice cap, which is naturally variable, and because it is unnecessary to include the .45m and also because it is not house style. See the articles for other peaks eg Everest, Elbrus, Matterhorn, Monte Rosa Finsteraarhorn, all of which have heights to nearest whole metre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.255.103 (talk) 21:46, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Fauna problem[edit]

An arctic hare.
Mountain hare.

Under fauna it lists "Mountain Hare", but the photo shown is that of an Arctic Hare. I looked and here it mentions the arctic hare are found in the Alps. But then when you look here (on the BBC), it says that mountain hare are found in the alps. Could it be that both species are found in the alps, and that whoever captioned the image as "mountain hare" on this article was just making a careless mistake? I was going to alter the image to mountain hare, but then I noticed that arctic hare are found in the alps too, so what should be done? -24.92.44.95 (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the article Arctic Hare (Lepus arcticus), they are only found in Greenland and northern America. The Mountain Hare (Lepus timidus) is found in Europe and Asia. In the "naturspot" website you quoted, the arctic hare is called Lepus timidus and it is stated that it is found in America, Asia and Europe. According to this link both species were considered to be one until recently. That could be causing the confusion. Anyway, there are no arctic hares in the Alps, so if you have a better picture of a mountain hare (preferably one in the Alps), please put it in the article. Markussep Talk 16:35, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Importance to Geology[edit]

The Swiss Alps, perhaps more than any other region of the World, is a microcosm of geological theories. Perhaps their importance to the development of geology should be acknowledged more in this introductory article. Though nappes are mentioned, the 're-interpretation' of the Glarus double-fold as a thrust fault allowed the Scottish Highlands to be made sense of.

Much of our French terminology of mountain geography and alpine glaciation was developed here, and summarized in Agassiz's 1940 treatise. Because of this and the dramatic effect of alpine glaciers on the beauty of the mountains and U-shaped valleys between, perhaps glaciation should be mentioned.

Though geosynclinal theory was an American invention, molasse basins & flysch troughs were used even there: and many geologists immediately saw plate tectonic theory explaining these & replacing the older theory.

The separate geology article has much to cover, but this article could list or mention those fundamental geological theories that were formulated in the Alps. Geologist (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Ladin is an alpine language![edit]

What about Ladin!? There should be the word "alps" added in the Ladin language too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.0.13 (talk) 05:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

the term "Alps"[edit]

In Etymology, the origin of the name is explained. But in English, 'Alps' is used for different mountain ranges in the world and for two near-by mountain ranges in Europe that are not part of the Alps.

and

  • Alpi Apuane in Italy
  • Swabian Alps or (better:) Swabian Jura (German: Schwäbische Alb, please note the -b), a low mountain range in South West Germany

--Schwab7000 (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Source request[edit]

This article mentions the various sub-ranges in the Alps: the Ligurian Alps, the Maritime Alps, the Cottian Alps, the Dauphiné Alps, the Graian Alps, the Chablais Alps, the Pennine Alps, the Bernese Alps, the Lepontine Alps , the Glarus Alps, and the Appenzell Alps. But very few of these pages have sources. I have the Shoumatoff book The Alps so I can source some of these but not all. The Shoumatoffs use different nomenclature for some of the sub-ranges so I'm having difficulty reconciling these. Does anyone know of a definitive source that uses these names we do so we can source here and in the subarticles? Truthkeeper (talk) 16:14, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Table of the four thousanders[edit]

Hi, I'd like to remove the table that's sitting in the middle of this article. I did remove, was reverted, so per BRD, am bringing this to the talk page. My feeling is that the section should be used to present a summary of mountaineering in the Alps and many of the peaks can be incorporated in the text. Furthermore we have a List of Alpine four-thousanders which is linked as the main article, and various subarticles, so I think the space could be put to better use. Thoughts? Truthkeeper (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it's important, in an article about a mountain range, to give the reader an overview of the main mountains that compose the range (preferably under the form of a short and exhaustive table). There are other list articles but they are much more longer and detailed, so logically they should be summarized in this article. Maybe this table could be made smaller and go under another section (geography for instance). ZachG (Talk) 11:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Now that the page has more text it seems to fit in better, and the image seems to help anchor it, so I think it's okay. I might move it though; but haven't decided whether it should have its own section; be moved to geology (which is very stuffed) or to the not-yet-written mountaineering section. The table could use a source though; if you know of one could you post it? Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:58, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I just added a source (a list of all four-thousanders with their prominence). You should feel free to reorganise the table or move it if you want. By the way, thank you for your great work on this article, I really appreciate it. ZachG (Talk) 12:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
@ZachG: Nice citation! Great work @Truthkeeper: you worked long and hard and now the article really shines! —EncMstr (talk) 18:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Zacharie for the source. Still thinking about what to do there. Thanks both of you for the encouragement; still a ways to go. It's an uphill climb (pun intended!). I'm doing this for the Core contest so expect to see quite a few more edits from me here in the next few weeks. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

the Alps ...[edit]

... does not go where one might naively be expecting (look at what links there for example; I'm sure most of those are not intended to be links to the 2007 documentary). There is also Alps (disambiguation) and Alp and ALP and ALPS and other articles mentioned there.

Surely the Alps should redirect either to Alps or to Alps (disambiguation), ideally the former, and the content there should be moved to The Alps (film) (like the article at The Alps (band))? Perhaps better to discuss over at Talk:The Alps. -- Ferma (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

The current title to this article looks and sound too weird to me. I'd suggest this page is moved to The Alps, with a seperate "Apls (dab)" linking the other stuff. Ceoil (talk) 18:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Geology[edit]

I've removed the final sentence from the orogeny and geology section:

High mountain peaks are separated from deep valleys by folds and nappes,[1] the valleys following the most recent orogenic warp creating "complex nappe structures [that] give rise to complex drainage patterns".[1]

as rather confused. How can folds and nappes "separate" peaks from valleys? Geomorphology - surface terrain is affected by underlying tectonic features, but "separated from" - not. The remainder of the sentence is also confusing - yes, drainage patterns are affected by underlying structures... Vsmith (talk) 14:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The geology section ought to be clearer about the time~scale of the actual thrusting-up of the ranges we see today - as the process is described now it can easily give a newcomer reader the impression that vivid folding and thrusting began already in the mid-Mesozoic. The time when the present Alps were pushed up into the sky was mainly about 40-10 million years ago, wasn't it? Though the relief was changed a great deal by the Pleistocene glaciations.83.254.151.33 (talk) 00:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Petrarch the Alpinist[edit]

Re [1], I think, without knowing much about the incident, Petrarch's climb is probably famous enough & early enough to deserve mention, but though Mount Ventoux may be geologically Alpine, it isn't really geographically or culturally, and has a very un-Alpine shape at the top, which today you can reach by car or bike. Even in the Middle Ages no ladders or rope required. Perhaps describe the mountain as an outlier or something, or leave it in a note. Congrats on the prize - a very nice piece of work. Johnbod (talk) 11:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, I kinda raised my brows at the Mt. Ventoux incident, but decided to put it in because the mountains were considered so inhospitable that any climb was somewhat notable in that period. It needs more research though and I had to return the books I had from the library and frankly ran out of steam. I think that entire section is interesting enough that I may work on it more; it's not fully developed yet. I don't mind commenting out Petrarch for the moment and re-ordering books so I can spend a little more time on a single section. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Main picture[edit]

I think we can do better than the current Jungfrau one, partly because it's not a 5* pic, partly because we have a panoranomic pic of it lower down in the article. Seems silly when there are so many other mtns to have two pics of the same one. Suggestions? Ericoides (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, agree. The page is very Jungfrau, Berner Oberland heavy (and now another pic of Lauterbrunnen added!). I looked on Commons for one of Mont Blanc and didn't find much, surprisingly. The problem is that there are so many nice pics of the Jungfrau, but when I added the panorama (which I really like) I thought the lead might need to be changed. If you can find something better, have a go at it. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Geography[edit]

The Geography section had the highest parts running from Mont Blanc to the Bernese Oberland and then to the Matterhorn, which is a strange circular route. I think it makes much more sense to consider the highest ground as being dissected by the glacial trough of the Rhone. I rearranged the text accordingly, around the natural feature of the Rhone trench, with the Pennine Alps to South, Berner Oberland to North. 62.3.255.103 (talk) 22:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Good idea! Thanks. ZachG (Talk) 21:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit Request - Lede[edit]

"Wildlife such as ibex live in the higher peaks to elevations of 3,400 m (11,155 ft)," I don't know what this sentence means. Does "wildlife" mean large mammals? - or is it just a vague general statement that "the higher peaks" support life? "In the peaks" I assume doesn't mean 'in the rock', and I assume it doesn't mean in the snow at the top of the highest 100 peaks. "to elevations of" - does that mean 'down to elevations of'? It certainly would make no sense to claim 'wildlife' lived in the highest peaks which are all above 4,000m but only below 3,400 m. Can a native English speaker please clarify what ever this obtuse sentence means? I would point out that it isn't likely that the average reader needs to be told that wildlife exists in the Alps, and while the Ibex is certainly a notable large European mammal "such as" really obfuscates what is trying to be said.173.189.75.127 (talk) 10:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't have the source at hand anymore but will have a look at my notes, otherwise I'll have to the book back from the library. Also, the lede is a summary and it's explained in this section. Native speaker here (and the person who wrote the sentence). Thanks for noting, though. Victoria (tk) 12:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
    • ^ a b Gerrard, (1990), 12