Talk:An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything/Archive 7

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Removed section: Visual representation

This edit from Nov 24 [1] Qwyrxian removed many sections, with the comment "Per discussion on the talk page, this much, this detailed, and this technical information is not appropriate, given that the theory is basically unaccepted in the community; more cuts may be appropriate later".

Below is a section that was helpful for me, including an animation. That animation is the only content specifically uploaded by Lisi, as seen in the file information. I'd like this section restored, but apparently it is not acceptable. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Tom, please try to approach this a little more slowly. This has been a problematic page. I don't remember now all that has been said about that video. In my opinion, that video doesn't help at all with an understanding of the theory. Not in any meaningful way. I can explain in detail what I mean if needed. It is a cool tool, but I think it's one of the sources of misunderstandings. Plus, it is very likely to be considered SPAM or a precedent for other people to upload their own videos. One thing is the link to the video, another thing is the video itself with a complex explanation that would need a lot of extra explanations and care.
I think we should all talk about the strategy on how to approach this before we start trying editing or re-including or excluding things. The risk is that a lot of supportive things and a lot of criticisms that we decided didn't belong here would all come back making us lose our minds. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 01:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure. I don't want to cause trouble, but thought I'd try a small challenge, outside my expertise! And I'm not concerned about the animation specifically (although I fit your category of precedent of "other people" for uploading scientific animations, like File:Lunar_libration_with_phase_Oct_2007_450px.gif), but that the geometric explanation of the model (like the static figures in the paper, like the 30-gonal symmetry projection [2] and others], along with supportive key) adds something more than words can share. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure, although your animation, even though could be evil and false (I'm joking), it's a sequence of photos of an object. It isn't an attempt of explaining the entire particle physics. If Lisi uploaded a picture of an atom, that wouldn't be a problem. But let's not forget that Lisi has a website and also sells his shirts. And I have mixed feelings about conflict of interests in the idea of hosting in his page an image that is on the shirts that he sells and wears in his tv show. Especially because it's not a very important movie to understand the theory. Other particle physicists don't use the graphical version of their geometry because they don't need so, but other people have used in presentations. So, if anything it would be useful to dedicate some more time to a generic page about these kind of visualizations, not just Lisi's. My problem anyways is not even just that, it's that the geometric explanation is biased. It doesn't say, for example, that most of these symmetries already appear in other models, while they seem to be a peculiarity of E8. Also, as I said above, some of those particle assignments are wrong, if taken literally, because they have the wrong quantum numbers. Ultimately, that video is really biased and looks to me like propaganda. It would be like if you had a theory about the moon libration and wanted to upload the video that you made to present (and unconsciously biased-ly support) your theory. A person that watches that video is brought to think "man, that theory must be right, look at all those patterns", and it would be very difficult to explain in words what's the problem with those patterns. And we certainly don't want to start a trend in which each person that comes up with a theory also wants to include their own propagandistic videos. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 02:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Rotation of the E8 root system in eight dimensions, with particle assignments corresponding to gravitational, electroweak, and strong charges.

The algebraic structure of the standard model and gravitational fields may be described using group representation theory, with roots and weights corresponding to the charge quantum numbers of elementary particle states. Different kinds of charge correspond to the different fundamental forces, with weak hypercharge and weak isospin of the electroweak force combining to produce electric charge, and two kinds of charge quantum numbers associated with the color charge of the strong force. These four kinds of standard model charge are conserved in all elementary particle interactions. In Lisi's theory, the spin of elementary particles are the charges with respect to the gravitational force, with a different spin charge for the left and right chiral parts of the gravitational spin connection. The quantum numbers of all elementary particles is a pattern of points in six dimensional charge space, which may be projected down to two dimensions and plotted, creating a visual representation of the algebraic structure. In Lisi's E8 Theory these charges in six dimensions are a projection of some of the E8 root system in eight charge dimensions. The standard model or E8 system of charges and allowed particle interactions may be rotated in eight dimensions and visualized via an online tool, the Elementary Particle Explorer.[1]

Tom, Lisi has given many talks using weight diagrams to describe particle physics and unification, and puts the slides on his wiki. Those slides might be a good source for images and equations, since I think his wiki is GPL.-Scientryst (talk) 03:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian can help me here, but advocating that Lisi was the first at using these diagrams without a third party reliable source, trying to see how they fit the current knowledge of particle physics and the structure of Lisi's E8 model as opposed to standard quantum field theory and the structure of the E8 group, has definitely a nasty smell of original research for promotion purposes. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 23:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Since I can't easily help directly with this article at the moment, perhaps I can help get something started with at least a stub weight diagram article. Currently it is referenced just an open link at hypercharge [3]. I found one article Visualizing Lie Subalgebras using Root and Weight Diagrams. The closest existing article to integrate with might be Weight (representation theory). Tom Ruen (talk) 03:10, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Tom, I see weight diagram as a redirect, not a stub.-Scientryst (talk) 07:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

That seems pretty good. Given that the field has been developed decades and decades ago, I'm sure we can find plenty of things to use from group theory books/articles. You can look at more typical example here http://www.udel.edu/mvb/PS146htm/146noqu.html or also Eightfold_way_(physics).
If you want a 3D example more similar to the SO(7)->G2 projection deal that is present in Lisi's theory then you can look at this page http://accessscience.com/content/Quarks/563300 that was inspired by this pdf (After C. Quigg, Lectures on charmed particles, Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, Fermilab-Conf-78/37-THY, April 1978) http://lss.fnal.gov/archive/1978/conf/Conf-78-037-T.pdf where even a hand-drawn rotation of the weight diagram is shown. It's a beautiful pdf. But it is true that nowadays, as far as I can tell, in general people don't use these graphical ways in unification papers very much. And it's also true that it's a good thing that Lisi used them again. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 04:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Right, we discussed this. Those diagrams are all for mesons. Where are the diagrams, other than Lisi's, for fundamental elementary particle charges: hypercharge, weak isospin, color, and how these embed in GUTs?-Scientryst (talk) 07:45, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

First, they aren't all for mesons but also for baryons and fundamental particles. Or didn't you see the diagrams with the triangles and the three flavors for the SU(3) global symmetry of u, c, d quarks? They are, as you perfectly know, the fundamental 3 and 3bar representation of SU(3) global. They are in many many books. Do you think people never showed the colors r, g, b in the same fashion? It happens pretty often in grad school. It is true that people don't use very often higher than 3 dimensional root diagrams for local symmetries because they become 4D and so on and it's hard to explain what's going on. Ultimately that technique doesn't change group theory, it changes your way of showing the same physics. It looks pretty though, just there is no need for it for researcher. But I like them and I think they should be used, not in papers, but in presentations. Anyways, certainly here we are not going to do original research saying that Lisi has this recognition just yet or that he would deserve it. Not even Lisi stating so would be enough (otherwise we would have Lisi stating so this evening and some people trying to bring that up as a reference). You have got to relax, recognition is not something people necessarily obtain in 10 minutes, 10 days, or 10 years. Sometimes they never get their fair recognition. Let's wait for the process to happen, and stop trying to use wikipedia as a mean of promotion. Wikipedia isn't part of this process, like you would like it to be. Wikipedia reports consensus that is strongly referenced. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"Where are the diagrams, other than Lisi's, for fundamental elementary particle charges: hypercharge, weak isospin, color, and how these embed in GUTs?" So, GT, you are claiming there are diagrams shown somewhere for color. That's probably true. And the rest? I'm trying to get evidence for whether these weight diagrams have been used before in this way, or if this graphical presentation of weight diagrams by Lisi is a significant contribution to the illustration of particle physics structure, for popular purposes, as the editors of SciAm state.-Scientryst (talk) 07:19, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
While it may certainly be a contribution in making particle physics popular, I wouldn't say they hadn't been used before in a broad context, wikipedia is full of those diagrams. If you think about it, aren't those graphs that I mentioned a representation of the flavor SU(3) for quarks similar to what Lisi has shown? And isn't the SU(3) flavor shown in each grad school book the same as, assuming Lisi's identification one day will work with fermions and with 3 generations, a linear combination of the weak generators, the hypercharge generator and the triality transformation generators in a direction of the Cartan subalgebra space that is perpendicular to the g2 strong gauge/quark generators? I believe that the main reason why those aren't very advertised in the higher dimensional representation is just because people would start seeing patterns and believe they are understanding while they might not actually be. In facts, because we have this left handed doublets, it is quite obvious that all the left handed fermions will appear in some sort of pattern, but this tells us very little about the TOE, unless we actually find new particles that are exclusive of a class of models. The patterns will still look pretty (you think that SO(32) isn't pretty?) but we all know that they have very large subsets of things. Lisi's idea was good, but the triality failure (so far at least) is a good indication that, either there is a lot of work to do before actually calling it a TOE, or, simply that we have a quasi-identification, and the patterns were misleading. Physicists don't need to see the pictures to understand those patterns, because they understand them well enough using other techniques, like the Dynkin diagram or the Young_tableau methods. If we have a clear statement from SciAm that says that Lisi has given this big contribution not written by Lisi then I think we can include it. But it has to be serious, not something on the lines "patterns never seen before that physicists will have to explain", that is visible in the page now, because that's certainly not only misleading, but false. Anyhow, if such statement is clearly present we can include it, with the SciAm voice and not with wikipedia's voice (I assume you know what policy I'm talking about). If eventually other independent from Lisi and SciAm journals or magazines with competence in physics will start saying the same, we will pass from a personal SciAm editor statement to a wikipedia statement. It seems still too early to me and with way too much original research in trying to identify the innovation. ~GT~ 98.244.54.152 (talk) 19:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
They are similar in that they are weight diagrams, but Lisi's diagrams for the electroweak charges, and for the electroweak charges combined with color, and for how these embed in unified models, are, as far as I know, new and, I think (and as backed up by the weight given to them by many sources), very important for understanding what has been done, and what hasn't been done. Perhaps people would start seeing these patterns and believe they are understanding because they actually are? If these specific weight diagrams, for the electroweak model, the standard model, and their embedding in GUTs, have been done before, I am asking you to provide a specific example. If you can't, my position is that these diagrams are new and quite informative, and I think we should use them in this article. Since similar (but not identical) diagrams have been used for particle physics before, this makes the case for using them even stronger. For what the SciAm editors say about them: "Even if Lisi turns out to be wrong, the E8 theory he has pioneered showcases striking patterns in particle physics that any unified theory will need to explain." That they're referring to them as "striking patterns in particle physics" sounds like serious support to me.-Scientryst (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I found this 2010 interview from Lisi http://vimeo.com/23681533, talkig about his use of the weight diagrams to present his theory, and that when he started he had no idea these diagrams existed, but that he saw them as helpful visualizations to aid communication. He admits they are well known by mathematicians, but less well know by particle physists. So it seems clear that he is not only trying to promote the diagrams for his own theory, but to encourage their wider usage within physics. His TedTalk presentation uses them exclusively to convey the theory, and presents it not as unique, but merely extending what others have already proposed, and extending the pattern a step higher. Like he presents a 7-dimensional proposal of Pati–Salam model, but its not clear if this visual represenation is a synthesis of his own, presenting their model visually, OR if everything he is showing is well-known and understood (and agreed) by Abdus Salam and Jogesh Pati as they saw their model. Finally Lisi appeears to say that the diagrams are not only useful for presenting the charge-space relations between the particles, but also gives information about how the particles can interact to conserve charges, although I suppose the diagrams again just visualize those interactions while the symbolism and rules within the particles are used to define explicitly what the possible interactions are. Anyway, that's the level that I got from his public presentation and that seems to deserve some recognition in this article. AGAIN, I don't see this as about "credit", about saying Lisi is doing anything special necessarily in his visualizations, only that they are important to his presentation conveying the nature of his unification attempt. Tom Ruen (talk) 22:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like Lisi's distinction is that he's using these weight diagrams with a high number of orthogonal (charge) dimensions, while other uses of them I find in particle physics papers are limited to 2 or 3 "dimensions". So I imagine this in part comes from the fact that its hard to understand what you're looking at in 4 to 8 dimensions projected down to 2. Lisi's rotations between various symmetry projection directions (by orthogonal double rotation I presume), seem to be a unique effort to express the symmetries of these unification theories and I think this fact deserves recognition in the article. Tom Ruen (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Please provide a reliable source that says that others have considered this usage to be unique and worth examining/using. If not, your opinion is not sufficient to determine that the point deserves recognition. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm still trying to learn what all these particles and charges represent, but in regards to usage I agree I'll have to look more widely on sources for what others say about these weight diagrams. At least, with the help of this summary [4], I've got some handle on the 8 "charge directions" (W=Weak hypercharge, Y=Hypercharge, g3,g8=Strong force, ωS=Isospin, ωT=Boost?!, X=X (charge), w="new charge relating to generations"). If I can get more clarity, I'd like a section including Table 1 (G2), Table 6 (D4), Figure 2 (E8), Figure 4 (G2 towards F4), along with a clear reference of what all the symbols mean. As well, the TedTalks presentation contained a 2D diagram of particles in the weak and strong hypercharge that wasn't in the paper. Also Lisi uses a more discriminating set of symbols to differentiate fermion types (on the PDF summary chart) above and laater animations. So, if a legend was offered, it may need to contain both sets of symbols in comparison! So suffice to say it'll be a while before I can offer help to the article, but still hopeful! Tom Ruen (talk) 03:48, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
p.s. It would seem Lisi's 2D W vs Y weight diagram for Electroweak interaction (in the TedTalks presentation) is a standard representation, and perhaps deserves to be included in THAT article as a visualization of how electric charge exists as a combination of two charges. But so far I have no comparable diagrams from other sources. Anyway, that seemed a good "first step" for me, to include these weight diagrams, if we can start with using them in the simplest cases, so that will aid more than just this article. Tom Ruen (talk) 04:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Tomruen, let me try again, by turning part of what you said on its head: whether or not you understand the details should have no bearing on making a decision to include the visuals. That's because we should only include them if someone other than Lisi has published papers or discussed them to say that they are interesting, useful, representative, helpful, etc. In other words, when deciding what to include, we shouldn't ask, "what's helpful", we should ask, "what have others--reliable sources, and, especially, experts--considered to be helpful from this paper"? Does that difference make sense? That's kind of the big push that I and a few others have been on about this article in general. For a paper that ranges between "slightly discussed," to "ignored," to "openly and directly rejected", it's very questionable that we should include any significant details about the theory at all. If scientists like yourself want to learn more about the theory, well, they should read Lisi's paper (or the small number of other papers that have discussed it). And, of course, if, in the future, this becomes a widely recognized theory (or even the stepping stone to a better theory), then we can discuss in more detail. Until then, though... Qwyrxian (talk) 08:31, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Tom, I agree with you on using one of Lisi's diagrams for the Electroweak model (and possibly Weinberg angle) as a starting point. For the diagram source and description, I recommend the SciAm article and talk slides from Lisi's wiki (linked to earlier). To address Qwyrxian's concerns, and for more information on these weight diagrams and Lisi's theory from the view of a physicist other than Lisi, I recommend the July 2008 issue of Physics World.-Scientryst (talk) 10:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
A quick search turned up the weight diagrams of Lisi and Weatherall's article in SciAm. I don't know if those are universally visible, or how long they will be available, but there they are.-Scientryst (talk) 11:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Scientryst for the link! I'm asking around for other sources that express the charges of the electroweak model in a diagram like Lisi uses, mainly to cross-check terminology used. And Qwyrxian, I'm sorry we disagree about "very questionable that we should include any significant details about the theory at all", but for me, if the article exists, it should include sufficient information that can communicate what its doing, what the basis of the theory is, where it agrees with existing theory and where it speculates. My understanding is the component weight diagrams are completely agreeable, but how he chose to embed the diagrams into E8 contains the speculation, so I see no reason at all not to include this especially, if it can be cross-linked with the other particle physics articles on wikipedia. If my "plan" goes well, it would be to identify where the various weight diagrams fit within the other articles (like electroweak model), and then this article can include the same diagrams. So it may be only a couple unique diagrams are needed to convey the E8 embedding Lisi attempted (whether history someday determines was fully or partially successful or not at all). Tom Ruen (talk) 18:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
p.s. The biggest trouble I'm having is the named charges by Lisi don't perfectly correspond to the similar termed charges on the wikipedia articles, so I'm at a standstill unless/until I can sort out exactly what the charge directions used by Lisi mean. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, in the first diagram, Y appears to be weak hypercharge, which often goes by YW, and W appears to be weak isospin, which often goes by the symbol T3 or I3.-Scientryst (talk) 06:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I got that far, but from Lisi's particle explorer, the W+/- particles have all charges zero, except his W direction as +/-1, while W_and_Z_bosons says they have a Spin_(physics) of 1, while Lisi calls his ωS as "spin" which is zero in his model. So what's Spin_(physics) vs weak isospin? Maybe that's my confusion? Tom Ruen (talk) 06:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I think what's hanging you up might be a confusion of total spin angular momentum with the spin quantum number. To describe gravity, and its interaction with fermions, one needs to use the spin connection, which acts on fermions living in the spinor representation space of spin(1,3), as can be seen in the Dirac equation in curved spacetime. The fermions then have "spin" weights (quantum numbers) of +/- 1/2 with respect to the two Cartan subalgebra generators of spin(1,3). One of these quantum numbers is the fermions' up or down "spin", and the other is what Lisi is calling "boost". The same Lie algebra, of the local Spin(1,3) gauge group of gravity (speaking loosely here), acts trivially on the gauge bosons. The spin connection only acts on itself, fermions, and the vierbein. Algebraically, the W, Z, and photons are in the trivial representation space of the gravitational Spin(1,3) gauge group. But, the W, Z, and photons, being 1-form connection fields, have solutions in spacetime corresponding to field states carrying angular momentum. Historically, these were decomposed into left and right circular polarizations, having angular momentum +/- 1, which is why they're described as "spin 1." And, if that's not confusing enough, the SU(2) of the weak interaction cares about fermion spin and boost. Only left-handed fermions (and right-handed) anti-fermions, as determined by their spin(1,3) quantum numbers, have non-zero weak isospin. And, of course, photons have zero weak isospin, and the W have +/- 1.-Scientryst (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
"The fermions then have "spin" weights (quantum numbers) of +/- 1/2 with respect to the two Cartan subalgebra generators of spin(1,3). One of these quantum numbers is the fermions' up or down 'spin', and the other is what Lisi is calling 'boost'."
That's a very unconventional choice of basis for the Cartan generators spin(1,3). With the "conventional" choice, fermions have spin weight ±1/2 under one of Cartan generators and spin weight 0 under the other. "Left-handed" fermions have weights (±1/2,0); "right-handed" fermions have weights (0,±1/2). Your (excuse me, "Lisi's") basis of Cartan generators is the sum and the difference of the conventional ones. Since the Weak Interactions treat left-handed and right-handed fermions differently (as you noted), your basis is never used by physicists.
It seems to me wholly inappropriate for Wikipedia to be promoting a formalism used by precisely 1 person in the world (well, 2, if we count Scientryst and Lisi separately).
QuotScheme (talk) 10:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
QuotScheme, in counting people who have used the spin quantum number, I think you've forgotten Pauli, Dirac and a few others. What is the more conventional choice may depend on how long your memory is. But your clarification of left-handed and right-handed weights is correct and helpful. This matches what's on page 9 of Lisi's 2007 paper. It's a different choice of basis (rotated by π/4) spanning the same Cartan subalgebra.-Scientryst (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
"QuotScheme, in counting people who have used the spin quantum number, I think you've forgotten Pauli, Dirac and a few others. What is the more conventional choice may depend on how long your memory is."
The conventional basis goes back, at least, to Wigner in the 1920s. The non-relativistic spin (see Pauli) is the diagonal generator (ie, the sum of Wigner's Cartan generators). So Dirac (and anyone else), studying the nonrelativistic limit of his equation, does use the diagonal generator.
Wigner's basis, however, is the natural one to use, when studying relativistic theories. Which is why that's what everyone (including Dirac, when he's not looking at the nonrelativistic limit of his equation) does. Using Lisi's basis, to label states in the Standard Model, leads to endless confusion, which is probably why Lisi failed to identify the anti-generations, present in his theory.
But the bottom line is that Lisi's weight diagrams are not widely accepted or used. This is both: because when projecting from 8 dimensions down to 2, you lose a lot of essential information and because Lisi's basis of Cartan generators for so(1,3) is unconventional and leads to confusion. Given that they are not widely accepted or used, we at Wikipedia should not be promoting them (because of WP:OR and WP:UNDUE).
QuotScheme (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Maybe it would help Tom Ruen to explain "why" Wigner's basis is the right one. There's more to spin(1,3) than its Cartan subalgebra. After performing the usual Physicists' trick of complexifying, spin(1,3) is isomorphic to two commuting copies of sl(2). Wigner's basis corresponds to choosing the Cartan generators, respectively, of the two sl(2)s. Yes, you could follow Lisi/Scientryst, and choose some other basis for the Cartan, but that would obscure the existence of the two commuting sl(2)s. Which makes understanding the representation theory harder.
QuotScheme (talk) 02:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! This is all constructive discussion. And yes I agree following convention is best, but if there's reasons for different presentations, then its good we're here, on wikipedia looking to understand it sufficiently to translate/clarify explicit terminology and notational differences for busy experts and lay readers alike, not just copying verbatim a paper, but finding how to present it in a way that connects it with the rest of physics. Good things can come from looking at things from different points of view. It's not defending one over another, but showing how they are related. I still can't say what or how I can help, but at least Lisi's visualizations have inspired me to try to sort out a subject that seemed way too random and disconnected to me as an undergrad! Tom Ruen (talk) 03:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
"...but if there's reasons for different presentations, then its good we're here, on wikipedia looking to understand it sufficiently to translate/clarify explicit terminology and notational differences for busy experts and lay readers alike..."
The danger, that you run, is that attempting to "translate/clarify" Lisi's notation, relating it to the standard one, would constitute original research.
QuotScheme (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, danger is always there. But to me the risk of being bold and facing challenged interpretations is smaller than leaving an article with the confusion of no clear context or relation to other article. Reading almost any math book I'll find specific notations/terms to that author that are somewhat different to whats on wikipedia (or even different because an author changes/refines their terminology over the years), so if I copy blindly I risk misinforming readers. So the idea for me when there's a primary author of a subject is to do both, include the author's usage for verifiability, and translation for wider understanding. Tom Ruen (talk) 19:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Charge directions?

Maybe first Lisi's charge directions can be better defined? Here's the 8 and my ignorance displayed. Please anyone confirm, correct or question as needed!

Note: The Elementary Particle Explorer Flash webpage shows 3 different basis systems that can be selected, shown as projected arrows in each given view. It appears that the 8 vectors are all mutually orthogonal, so that might explain his choices? Tom Ruen (talk) 03:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
# Lisi Wikipedia Notes
Symbol Name Symbol Name
1 W Weak T3 Weak isospin
2 Y Hyper YW Weak hypercharge
3,4 g3,g8 Strong ? color, Strong force ??
5,6 ωST Spin and Boost s and ? spin quantum number and  ?
7 X "GUT" X X (charge)
8 w PQ "new charge relating to generations" ? Peccei–Quinn theory ?

Editing the table a bit.-Scientryst (talk) 05:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Scientryst! I confirmed Lisi's Quark charges in his 2D diagram for (W,Y)=(T3,YW), LH and RH, but the Electron neutrino article lists (T3,YW) as '?' for both LH/RH (see below), while Lisi's diagram has them at LH:(1/2,-1), and (-1/2,+1). Are these charges a part of the standard model? Maybe someone didn't know them immediately when they added the stat table? Should they be added to the electron/muon/tau neutrino article(s)? ALSO, Lisi has electron and positrons plotted with LH/RH copies - should those properties be added to those articles as well? And W+/- (W bosons) at (+/-1,0)? Those values would complete the first diagram. Are there any clear tables for these values to reference for all this? I assume its all standard, but can't know for now. Tom Ruen (talk) 04:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

 |weak_isospin    = {{nowrap|[[Chirality (physics)|LH]]: ?, [[Chirality (physics)|RH]]: ?}}
 |weak_hypercharge= {{nowrap|[[Chirality (physics)|LH]]: ?, [[Chirality (physics)|RH]]: ?}}
Although it may be found eventually, there is no RH neutrinos in the standard model. There is sometimes one in GUTS if they have a Pati-Salam-like model since in that case the RH electron would form a RH doublet with the RH electron neutrino. Lisi's theory also includes RH neutrinos. There are other models in which the neutrino is a Majorana particle, so maybe that's why they didn't include those charges? It might even be that experiments measuring the handness of neutrinos have been so far inconclusive and for now they are just assumed to be lefthanded (as in it's not clear if it's a Majorana particle or not). Anyhow every time you check this data you shouldn't look at wikipedia since something could be missing (or wrong). Check the Particle Data Group website (although that can be sometimes hard to read for outsiders).
Thanks for the link, [5] - I'll have a look! And I agree about not depending on wikipedia, but I figure this is the process of trying to cross-reference with wikipedia content can be improved, and errors corrected with some vigilance! Tom Ruen (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Anyhow in the Standard Model, assuming that the left handed particles come in doublets, the LH electron neutrino obviously has the same Hypercharge as the LH electron (T_3=-1/2,Y=-1/2), but opposite Weak charge, which means LH neutrinos have (T_3=1/2,Y=-1/2), in the convention where the electric charge Q = T_3 + Y. ~GT~ 98.244.54.152 (talk) 05:12, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
You say LH neutrinos would have (T3=1/2,Y=-1/2) with Q = T3 + Y, but Lisi is talking about weak isospin and weak hypercharge: (T3,YW), and Q=T3+YW/2, so as I said he shows LH neutrino at (+1/2,+1), and RH and (-1/2,-1). I'll just say I'm confused for now - Wikipedia Template:Flavour_quantum_numbers show Y = 2 (Q − I3) and YW = 2 (Q − T3)! Tom Ruen (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I was gone for a few days. I think this is a good place to respond to a few issues mentioned above without responding in all the long and confusing threads up there. Wikipedia isn't a forum so we should try to decrease the amount of opinions and focus on the article and the facts. What is the purpose of the above table? I'll write a couple of sentences about this chart to help who's trying to understand the matter. In GUTS or TOE we don't necessarily have 8 charges, in most cases we have more, or also less. The one mentioned w is the issue related to the 3 generation problem, and if I understand what Scientryst meant it represents the triality tranformation (forgive me if I don't go back to the original paper and I go by memory but I think w was the one that rotate the three Lisi-generation into each other). Actually if *anyone* writes a paper just giving an explicit example of how *any* triality transformation together with *any* BRST technique can give chiral fermions out of adjoint representation, that really would be a really interesting and worth publishing paper.

The purpose of the table was to help clarify the 8-dimensional parameters used by Lisi. If at some point diagrams up to the E8 theory graphic are agreeable to be added to the article, with primary axes labeled in each view, I'd support something like this overview table as well. For now its just to see on this talk page what we have! Tom Ruen (talk) 23:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

About the figures linked above, as I said above, I think they are nice pictures and should be used more often. But they also have some bad consequences, as in people not really understanding how two GUTs differ from each other, or what's the difference between roots and weights, or what's the difference between bosons and fermions in those diagrams. Anyhow these are just opinions. Instead, calling the pictures by numbers n), the facts are: [For 9 diagrams at [6]]

1) This is a correct picture. I usually don't like to see antiparticles in these diagrams but that's OK (and a long discussion). The Higgs is a little strange. Where is the h+ degree of freedom that usually is used to be eaten by the W bosons to get their masses (actually were are the 3 degrees of freedom eaten)? I.e., from this diagram I don't see the Higgs as a 4 or natural bidoublet in SU(2)_LxSU(2)_RxU(1)_X. For the same reasons maybe the SU(2)_R patterns maybe don't show? But then I would have expected to see at least the other 3 higgs degrees of freedom given that there is no symmetry breaking yet. Am I misunderstanding something or did I get confused?

2) This is also a correct picture. This is actually one of the most interesting pictures of all, IMHO. There are these very very nice papers, published in 2002 Exceptional Confinement in G(2) Gauge Theory http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-lat/0209093 (Journal reference: Nucl.Phys. B668 (2003) 207-236) and 2003 Confinement without a center: the exceptional group G(2) http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-lat/0302023v1 (Published in Nucl.Phys.Proc.Suppl. 119 (2003) 652-654). They not only have the same identical picture as Lisi, but they even specifically recall the weight diagrams to compare the group SU(3) and the 3 and the 3bar and their relation to SO(7) and G2 (like I was saying above). But Lisi doesn't even cite them! (of course, he thinks he's the first one to use these diagrams...) By the way, those authors all have 1000 citations or more (and the two papers together have about 60 citations, they should have been cited by Lisi). To explain: they try to use G2 and its fundamental representation 7, breaking the symmetry at a high scale, to prove how the 7 would naturally break into the 3 and the 3bar (which in their picture is natural once the bosons that move from the 3 to the 3bar become very massive). Of course it's not a TOE and their approach is different, but they even look, in their second paper, at the possibility of having G2 usually nonchiral gauginos (gluinos) as chiral fermions. Being a supersymmetric theory of course they look at the chirality issue of the gauginos and attempt a domain-wall/string-theory-like approach. This issue, far from being easy to solve, as I've been mentioning here for months, is pretty common in supersymmetric models when dealing with gauginos and their chirality.

3) Although I like this picture, and I know what it means, I doubt that people understand it easily. Understanding 4 dimensional spaces projected onto 2 isn't intuitive. They will just *see* a charming pattern (that I can create with any orthogonal two dimensional spaces). Also, the caption/comment below the picture is misleading, if not even false. That's absolutely not the Standard Model. That is the representation of the standard model gauge bosons and some fermions, certainly not the entire standard model (since some of the fermions, which are a fundamental property of the standard model) are missing in that picture.

4) This is OK if the previous points were clear (it doesn't add more problems to the ones already mentioned). I like the idea of showing SU(5) and it's fundamental representation, but I think that the projection can be confusing.

5) I am not sure that every quantum number of E6 is accounted for, using only the known particles with the conventional quantum numbers (I don't want to check, and I shouldn't be checking anyways, but I can if needed), and the same issue regarding the 3 generation problem stands here.

The ones after 5) all share the same problems as the ones above, plus the fact that it's not obvious from the captions that the E8 one doesn't actually fit the standard model because of the 3 generation problem. It is phrased in a very cryptic way that hides the issue.

Overall I believe that the papers cited certainly prove that not only physicists know those diagrams and patterns (even with the strong force, or color), but also that when they need it they actually use it. In most cases they don't need it because physicists understand the representations well enough just from the math without making pictures, but in that specific case a picture was explicitly used because it is not easy to visualize G2 and it's *analogy* with SU(3) plus 3 and 3bar, unless you see the graph. I agree that Lisi's representations are interesting, although I think he fails to show how lots of other theories have the same patterns.

I think that the statement reported from SciAm "Even if Lisi turns out to be wrong, the E8 theory he has pioneered showcases striking patterns in particle physics that any unified theory will need to explain" is simply journalistic, but not accurate nor true. In fact, Lisi's theory certainly wasn't the first theory to identify those patterns. And the diagrams in the papers I linked certainly are the proof of him not being the first to notice this patterns. The patterns were certainly noted a long time ago, when the first GUTs were studied (that's the whole point of having a GUT!). The SU(5) example that Lisi has drawn is the proof that people knew already about the patterns when designing SU(5) and noticing how well it fit with the known particles. And all the SU(3) famous flavor diagrams, and the diagrams included in the papers I mentioned above (plus all the examples made to students in grad schools) are the proof that they aren't original.

Now, it is true, using these patterns Lisi made a clear and important impact on viewers and curious people. Actually I think that a lot of people got charmed by his theory by looking at his diagrams (and they didn't realize how common some of these patterns are). Maybe more physicists should use them. And maybe there should be more work trying to explain them and their projections. And maybe in the future we could write a sentence along these lines: "in presenting his theories to the general audience, Lisi introduced to non-physicists the weight diagrams to look at patterns not only in quark/meson/baryon structures, but also in fundamental particles and unification. The Standard Model seen as a weight diagram offers to non experts a better visualization of all the striking patterns of the Standard Model than the usual table of particles and charges" (which is what I believe, honestly). And I hope that in the future this becomes a recognized fact, but I don't think there is any consensus and reliable sources that are accurate and state so about Lisi at the moment. ~GT~ 98.244.54.152 (talk) 04:52, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

GT, thanks greatly for your input. I'd still like the diagrams added to this article, but for my effort I'm content to wait until I can understand more. I'll continue looking at wider uses of the weight diagrams, and see if more diagrams are useful in other articles as well. But this will be slow for me. Perhaps you can help answer questions or confirm specific facts on your anonymous talk page, or elsewhere? User_talk:98.244.54.152 I'd appreciate your expertise! Tom Ruen (talk) 23:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
If you want I just created a user to talk about this topic. ~GT~ (talk) 09:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Advertisement, promotion and original research.

Qwyrxian, I understand that you don't want to edit, so I'm asking you some advice on policies.

A big chunk of the discussions above is starting to have an unfortunate halo of original research to try to overcome the idea of cutting down a little the page and to create more mess trying to include images and details of the theory. They seem to me attempts to almost promote these ideas, even though they have never been recognized or expressed anywhere else. It seems like an attempt to use wikipedia to promote Lisi's work. Is it really that difficult to wait for the general consensus OUTSIDE of wikipedia before we start talking about these new aspects in the page? If Lisi will in the future be recognized for this, I'll be happy to write that part myself giving him all the glory he deserves, but let's wait for the recognition to happen before we start drawing our own conclusions.

A lot of the material discussed above seems to me hopeless to be ever published on the page if we follow WP policies, so before we start talking for weeks about those new aspects if would be good to have some help. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 23:26, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

There is some substance in what I mention the page length, not just poor justification. The point being, if Lisi had a page as long as Cabibbo or Gell-Mann, should Lisi be unhappy with that page? Why is it more important to have a page on Lisi, which objectively accomplished a lot less than those two physics giants? Showing twice as much details in Lisi's page as opposed to Gell-Mann's page is certainly UNDUE, because otherwise we would give the impression that Lisi deserves more or as much attention of those people. Same goes for the theory. If I am a reader, and I read more on Lisi's theory than on Loop Quantum Gravity, I would think that Lisi's theory might be as important as loop quantum gravity. Which is certainly not the case in the physics community. Where Lisi's theory and related papers count few papers and few scientists, while LQG counts thousand of papers and physicists working on it. This is why it is a good idea to compare physicists and models or approaches. Of course, the fact that one is poorly written should push to improve it instead of just cutting down material from other pages. But there is also a good limit when we are talking about Nobel Laureates and FUNDAMENTAL theories, like QCD. It shows that showing more details in Lisi's pages is certainly an attempt to promote a theory that doesn't really have lots of attention in the physics community. At the least it is UNDUE and it is a misrepresentation of the weight of the theory. All this not being offensive of Lisi or Lisi's theory. Same goes, given that I mentioned it yesterday, Little Higgs theories. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 23:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Discuss Lisi's page at Talk:Antony Garrett Lisi. In any event, your complaint isn't valid, and it's time to drop the stick. The problem with your complaint is that it presumes that the articles on Cabibbo, Gell-Man, or Loop Quantum Gravity are somehow ideal articles in a finalized form. But they're not. So comparing this one and those doesn't tell us if this is too long or if the others are too short. Instead, simply apply policies, and, where policy is silent (that is, policy doesn't spell out for us exactly how much info should be included), get consensus. If you can't get consensus here, we'll use dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:31, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
If you say that the policy doesn't apply this way then I'll believe you and I will drop this, although this is a minor point. But your line of reasoning above seems confusing to me. I didn't assume that those articles have an ideal length. But what is the metric to judge due weight if we don't compare something with other pages? Avoiding an overrepresentation of the weight of a theory must be done compared to how much it's written about theories on average. Those example above I thought would set a good comparison because it's very famous people related to the same physics that Lisi does. That's all. Still my points about not including all the graphs stay. 24.7.128.58 (talk) 03:53, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, Lisi and his theory have suffered from over promotion. But, people come to Wikipedia and read this article because they are interested in the theory, so we should do our best to present it honestly, accurately, and with NPOV. I think that should include a brief but comprehensive description, and probably include some of these weight diagrams.-Scientryst (talk) 08:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Very brief, not comprehensive. Again, if someone wants to understand the theory, an encyclopedia (of any kind) is absolutely the last place they should look. We provide brief overviews, ideally with good references, so that people can get a general understanding of something, then follow the reference trail to learn more. Obviously, the exact line is a matter of editorial discretion, but real world impact has a bearing on our analysis of how much to include. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)