Talk:Andre Dawson

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MVP[edit]

In '87, Dawson allegedly was the only MLB player ever to be MVP for a last place team. Trekphiler 04:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC) Alex Rodriguez won the MVP for the last-place Texas Rangers in 2003.

Furthermore, can we get an edit on the last 2-3 paragraphs on this? This was clearly written by someone with a distaste for Dawson, constantly emphasizing speculation about how Wrigley field 'SURELY' helped Dawson's offensive numbers and citing his 'average' .323 OBP, while overlooking the fact that the man ~did~ appear on the majority of Hall of Fame ballots, which would prove that he was surely an above average player, even at a glance.

On the contrary, I am a huge André Dawson fan, having watched him as I grew up in Montreal. As an Expos fan, I would love to see Dawson in the Hall of Fame -- he is one of the few remaining hopes for players to go in with a Montreal cap. I felt it only fair, however, to mention how many serious fans of the game such as Bill James interpret Dawson's career. The paragraph on the Hall of Fame does not overlook Dawson's support -- it starts off by saying he received 61% of the vote. No question has been placed on Dawson being an above average player -- there are many above average players who have had average or even below average statistics in some categories. He remains (as noted) the 4th highest Cub in career slugging, and the 6th highest Expo.

I think THE HAWK is awesome and badass but it is true that in many circles, certain numbers like his OBP, are what make him a borderline case for the Hall of Fame. His park- and era-adjusted WARP3 (Wins Against Replacement Player) in 1987 was only 7.7, making it inferior to 4 of his seasons with the Expos in the late 70's/early 80's. His peak WARP over the five years from 1979-1983 was an above average 42.0, while his career totals are just over 100. Compare that to Dale Murphy's 46.0/91.8, and Murphy is a guy who will never get in the hall despite being a better fielder and overall hitter than Dawson (Murphy's WARP3 in '87 was 11.7, FYI). Or how about an outfielder from a slightly earlier era, Dwight Evans, who, despite having WARPs of 42.0/112.9 is long gone off the ballot.

Reference to Harold Baines[edit]

The reference to Harold Baines was a paraphrase from the Phil Rogers article (which unfortunately seems to now only be available to ESPN subscribers). It was intended only to show that it is anticipated that Dawson will no longer hold this distinction, and not as a supporting argument either way for Dawson's candidacy. To make this an argument, it would be more appropriate to show players with similar hit and RBI totals and whether or not they are in the Hall of Fame. Isaac Lin 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Dawson's job at the Marlins' front office[edit]

How long did he worked there?

He's still there, and has been since at least 2002. He was never on the Marlins coaching staff, as the article erroneously used to state. -- Mount Molehill (talk) 06:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Image:Andre dawson.jpg — appropriate or not?[edit]

There has been a couple of rounds of deleting and re-adding this photo. Can the interested parties discuss their rationales? Isaac Lin (talk) 17:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The photo in his infobox of him is fine, but I do not see a point in having the picture appear again in the page. Adam Penale (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The main photo shoud be of Andre Dawson as an Expo. He played twice as long (eleven seasons) with the Montreal Expos as with the Cubs, was drafted by the Expos, was NL Rookie of the Year as an Expo, won six Golden Gloves and three silver sluggers as an Expo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rick@asci.ca (talkcontribs) 22:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No Expos?[edit]

What... no photo of Andre Dawson with the Expos? This is sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.83.220.148 (talk) 21:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Youth[edit]

Certainly the body of the article should begin with some discussion of where he grew up, went to H.S., etc. There's a comment in an article on ESPN.com about the beginnings of his knee problems being a H.S. injury that he never properly rehabbed, and that deserves inclusion here. The AP article there on his election mentions his visiting the graves of his mother and grandmother on the day of his election; his family should be covered in this portion as well. MisfitToys (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

nah, that would require WP editors to actually write a biography based on biographical sources. I don't see much of that going on, on this site. Seems folks who do things for free aren't quite as motivated to write decent biographies. Instead they're mostly slanted advocacy pieces and/or trivia piles. Advocates and Asbergers - it's what makes WP go 'round. Cookiehead (talk) 05:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Chicago statistics and election to the Hall of Fame[edit]

From the 1988 Bill James Baseball Abstract: "Dawson's statistics were tremendously inflated by playing in Wrigley Field. In Wrigley Field, Dawson hit .332 with 27 home runs. On the road, he hit .246 with 22 homers."

It's quite true that the real best years of Dawson's career came with the Expos; however his Chicago years got the attention of many American sportswriters. Dawson himself believes that it is his Chicago numbers that resulted in him being elected. Thus the illusory nature of Dawson's Chicago statistics is a relevant factor for the time taken to elect Dawson. Isaac Lin (talk) 01:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That's one year, and refers to his MVP year only. The next year his stats were equal home/road, and in 89 they were drastically better on the road. So you're talking about a 5 hr difference in one year, that swung the other way later in his career. So unless you can find a RS that supports that his career stats were swayed by Wrigley (they weren't, by any measure of statistical signifance), then that claim is dubious for HOF merit, but perhaps appropo for 1987 MVP considerations. If one wants to base his HOF election solely on 1987, that would be a stretch. Of course it helps, but it hasn't helped Barry Larkin, and many other single year MVP'ers. Of course my added statement about the steroid era is also original research, but I'm pretty sure that there are RS that point out the difference in batting stats for league leaders in the 1970's-80's vs. the 90's-early 00's. Have a good one! Cookiehead (talk) 04:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not just HRs—Dawson's home batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging were all significantly higher in 1987, 1988, 1991, and 1992. Isaac Lin (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
88 was flat. So you got 3 wins 2 losses, 1 tie on your original research. Personally I don't think he's a HOF'er. But I'm not a reliable source either. Find a RS that claims that he got into the HOF because in 3 out of his 6 years at wrigley his major offensive stats were significantly better at home, and those 3 years then overrode the other 19 years of his career, and you're onto something. I'm through with the Hawk, so knock yourself out. Cookiehead (talk) 05:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

From baseball-reference.com:

Split Avg OBP Slg HR
1987 Home .332 .373 .668 27
1987 Away .246 .288 .480 22
1988 Home .314 .360 .515 12
1988 Away .292 .329 .493 12
1989 Home .239 .293 .385 6
1989 Away .268 .323 .576 15
1990 Home .316 .374 .534 14
1990 Away .304 .342 .536 13
1991 Home .293 .328 .575 22
1991 Away .251 .277 .403 9
1992 Home .306 .357 .540 13
1992 Away .252 .279 .383 9

Slugging was nearly flat in 1988, but overall offense still favoured the home field. In essence, this section is a bit of a moot point, since Dawson was indeed elected. Isaac Lin (talk) 05:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Hall of Fame balloting in the infobox[edit]

I have started a discussion on the talk page for WikiProject Baseball on including the number of Hall of Fame ballots for a Hall of Famer in the infobox. Any comments are welcome. isaacl (talk) 15:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)