Talk:Anglican Communion

Catholics not in communion with Rome?

This category is really obnoxious, especially considering that all references to the Anglican Communion as protestant are quickly removed. The category "Catholics not in communion with Rome" very strongly implies post-Reformation breakaways from the Roman Catholic Church - primarily Old Catholics who rejected Vatican I and the sede vacantists and others who rejected Vatican II. Including Anglicanism in this category is an effort to advance a POV, and to use a non-standard definition of "Catholic." The standard which counts Anglicanism as Catholic would have to count at least the Scandinavian Lutheran churches and the eastern churches as well; one should also mention the fact that pretty much all churches derived from the historic reformation churches, especially the reformed and Lutheran churches, also consider themselves in some sense to be "Catholic." Counting Anglicanism in this category is just blatant POV pushing. If it's going to be kept, we should also add categories for protestantism, given that the 39 Articles are indisputably protestant, the supreme governor of the Church of England took an oath to uphold the Church of England as a protestant church, and so forth. john k (talk) 21:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the category should be removed. The category describes itself as: "A list of professed Catholic groups, or persons, who identify themselves with Roman Catholicism (at least as it was since the Council of Trent) and who were (or have been) officially censured as excommunicate by Rome." While the AC will say its catholic, I don't think the case can be made they "identify themselves with Roman Catholicism" [emphasis added]. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I will remove the category from both this article and Anglicanism. john k (talk) 04:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Good call. --BozMo talk 05:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I have restored the category for the time being on the simple basis that Anglicanism defines itself as being "Catholic" ( although the category's definition requires some clarification ). Most of the arguments above are based on the apparently Roman Catholic POV that Anglicanism isn't Catholic. This POV isn't definitive in articles regardless of how strongly it is believed by many Roman Catholics. Afterwriting (talk) 17:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The category itself is defined in a way to exclude Anglicanism. And it's not Roman Catholic POV that it's misleading to use the word Catholic to describe Anglicanism without providing context. It's the POV of everyone who isn't an Anglo-Catholic, including many Anglicans. Yes, Anglicanism defines itself as Catholic. So does every other denomination which uses the Nicene Creed. Anglicans perhaps emphasize their Catholicity more (or, at least, Anglo-Catholics do) but the sense that they mean it in is not the sense that is generally understood by people who are not Anglo-Catholics. The dominant meaning of "Catholic" in English is "Catholic as opposed to Protestant" - i.e., followers of the Roman church as opposed to followers of the churches established during the Reformation. In the broader sense stated by the category, it is used to refer to groups which trace their origins back to the post-Tridentine Roman Catholic Church who are no longer in communion with Rome - i.e. Old Catholics, sedevacantists, and the like. Including Anglicanism here is wrong and misleading. john k (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It is overly simplistic to define "Catholic" as meaning the opposite of "Protestant". The historical facts are considerably more complex and encyclopedias don't have to pander to ignorance regardless of how widespread it may be. Are you an expert on Anglicanism? Obviously not going by your sweeping generalisations and factual errors regarding this tradition. Your opinions on this matter seem to reflect an American understanding of what is "Catholic" and what is "Protestant". In England and elsewhere these understandings can be very different so please try to broaden your perspectives on such matters. Afterwriting (talk) 07:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not an expert on anglicanism, and I wouldn't be surprised if I've made a few minor errors of fact. That being said, my not being an expert on anglicanism is kind of the point. My argument is based not on expertise in Anglicanism, but on usage in the English language. Beyond that, my meanings have nothing to do with an American understanding. Queen Elizabeth II swore an oath to defend the true protestant religion and has no problem being both supreme governor of the Church of England and a member of the (certainly protestant) Church of Scotland; the 39 Articles are pretty close to Calvinism in their doctrinal positions; the word "protestant" itself was used in the 18th century to refer to Anglicanism as distinct from dissenters. The Church of Ireland is the largest protestant church in Ireland. The most common usage of the word "Catholic" in the English language is to refer to the Roman Catholic Church. This church is normally placed in opposition to the "protestant" churches which emerged from the Reformation. One such church is the Church of England, and, by extension, the Anglican Communion. The Anglican Communion defines itself as "Catholic and Reformed." "Reformed" in this context is a synonym for "Protestant." The definition's usage of the word "Catholic" is idiosyncratic; originally, it meant "catholic" in the sense of the Nicene Creed, and was, as such, no different from any of the other major reformation churches (Reformed and Lutheran), which also claimed to be "catholic" in this sense. In the nineteenth century, the Oxford Movement, basing itself to some extent on earlier anglican works, invented an entirely new meaning of Catholic. This meaning, having to do with the apostolic succession, was widely adopted among Anglicans, but is unfamiliar and unused by anybody else. It should obviously be discussed in our articles that specifically deal with the subject, but it absolutely should not be used when context cannot be provided. For most readers, calling Anglicanism "Catholic" will be highly misleading. john k (talk) 16:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the Category is not terribly helpful and probably should go. It is hard to see how it serves a useful purpose but as defined with a definition out of synch with its title, the AC is in on title not in on definition. Broadly "Catholic" means tracing valid Apostolic Succession to the Catholic side of the great schism, and pretty much all those who are in this status not in communion with Rome have been excommunicated (generally as entire churches with bishops at the time). Therefore by definition Rome tends to deny the Catholicism of those Catholics it has excommunicated, including Anglican ones... --BozMo talk 09:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not defined out of sync with its title, and "broadly" Catholic means nothing of the sort, except to Anglo-Catholics. Somehow a sectarian definition of "Catholic" which is not in sync with its typical usage by the vast majority of speakers of the English language has been imposed as the working usage throughout wikipedia. Put simply, "Catholic" should never be used in the Anglo-Catholic sense without an explanation, because the vast majority of people would be misled by it. Which gets to the basic issue. The category is for post-reformation breakaways from the Catholic church; Anglicanism is not such, it is a reformation church, and including it in this category will only create confusion. The category might be renamed in a clearer way, but it absolutely is useful to have a category for Old Catholic, sedevacantist, etc., organizations, and such a category should not be muddled with by adding Anglicanism. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good name, though. john k (talk) 16:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

(Yawn) Catholic versus Roman Catholic again

I see we have another IP reverting Roman Catholic to Catholic. I think this has been discussed to death before but I guess it is worth pointing out that the Vatican website uses "Roman Catholic Church" etc when it is engaged in ecumenical discussions, perhaps because there is a preparedness to set aside what the Vatican believes technically correct for the sake of clarity when discussion includes that of other parts of the church. I am sure you can use Google too but see for example [1] where the official "ANGLICAN - ROMAN CATHOLIC INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION" uses pretty much the exact wording you are objecting to, in a council jointly formed between the two Churches. --BozMo talk 17:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

In addition, there's an IP wanting to change One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to One, Holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church on the argument that Catholic with a capital C means Roman Catholic and only catholic with a small c refers to more general catholicism. However, things aren't that simple; moreover, the change breaks the link. Pais (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Elementary study guides to Metaphysics?

I am sorry, is anybody anywhere actually providing a basic course of Metaphysics as a real school discipline, like in an elementary school? I need a very elementary study guide to the basics of Metaphysics and metaphysical thinking (as opposed to dialectical or positivist thinking), in the shape of something like an ordinary school study-book (imagine a course-book on Arithmetic or, for instance, Music, or Logic in the elementary school). I mean, just a set of rules or introduction to specific methods, inherent for this discipline, which provide a new skill for the disciple and enable to solve new problems. (Most of all I am interested in the classical Christian Metaphysics of Middle Ages, as a specific scientific and cognitive method). Can anyone advise something like this? Because everything I found on the net seems to be either not differentiating Metaphysics from all other Philosophy, or just be a bunch of babble. Thank you in advance. 195.50.1.122 (talk) 11:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Talk Page automatic archiving

This page is getting pretty long and some edits date back to the early 2000s. I propose to set up automatic archiving of this page some time next week unless anyone objects to that here. Dabbler (talk) 15:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Set up auto-archive. Dabbler (talk) 16:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

80m or 85m

Actually the home page of the Anglican website does now say 85m but it says 80m in some of the sub pages like the directory. http://www.anglicancommunion.org/index.cfm Presumably they are updating it or something? --BozMo talk 14:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

It may now be more than 85 million but without anything more definite we need to stay with the referenced directory page as the source. The figure on the homepage cannot be referenced properly as it "disappears" for wont of a better term. Anglicanus (talk) 14:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)