Talk:Anti-Christian violence in India

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus; no move. Both the current and proposed title(s) are descriptive, so usage in reliable sources is not as helpful as it is in cases with topics with clear names. The point that the topic of anti-Christian behavior in India, in general, not just violence, should be covered is well taken, but there is no consensus that this is or should be the article for that. Perhaps a draft of this article that expands the scope accordingly, or a draft of another article that covers the broader scope, is what is needed here? (non-admin closure) B2C 04:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)



Anti-Christian violence in IndiaAnti-Christian intolerance in India Persecution of Christians in India or Violence and discrimination against Christians in India (as per Sarvajna's rationale) – The scope needs to be broadened to integrate the other incidents of intolerance and discrimination which were not necessarily violent in nature. BTW, Nobody could possibly say that it is not violence to burn or rape somebody. But it is after all triggered by and often condoned because of something more ingrained, that is hatred and intolerance. Violence is just one of many things that may originate from religious bigotry and intolerance against Christians. "Intolerance against Christians in India" is a broader topic and would include violence, intolerance. Only focusing on the violence while ignore the underlying manifestations of intolerance would not conducive for the development of the article.

P.S. I am all for a move to Persecution of Christians in India (redirects to here) if one doesn't like the word "Intolerance". Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 17:26, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Updated to avoid redundant comments (esp. from Darkness Shines) on the minutiae of the semantics. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 07:08, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose As there has been anti-christian violence in India since the Vellore Mutiny. Also per WP:COMMONNAME, The Politics of Collective Advocacy in India: Tools and Traps p112 "A number of activists and academics have identified the diaspora as a culprit in fueling anti-Muslim and anti-Christian violence in India." Encyclopedia of Modern worldwide extremists and extremist groups p335 "Anti-Christian Violence in India Builds on Fear of Conversions," Everyday Nationalism: Women of the Hindu Right in India p78 "What is the purpose of this anti-Christian mobilization? How do we explain violence by the Hindu majority against the tiny Christian population of India?" Hindu Nationalism: Origins, Ideologies and Modern Myths p201 "Ashok Singhal, VHP president, characteristically dismissed the anti-Christian violence, claiming that 'foreign hands', namely Christian leaders from abroad, were behind the violence, their aim being to project India and Hinduism in a bad light" Congressional Record, V. 145, Pt. 20, November 4, 1999 to November P 28873 "Even in Orissa state, site of the worst anti- Christian violence, fewer than 500 conversions occur each year." A Companion to the Anthropology of India p2011 "a caste reservation dispute broke out in Orissa between some Kondh (Kandha) STs and Christian Panas (formerly Hindu SCs) - a dispute that soon turned into more generalized antiChristian violence during 2007-8." And hundreds of thousands more to be found. "Anti-Christian violence in India" Google gives 112,000 results, the proposed name gives 3, two of which are from this RM. Gbooks gives 127 hits for the exact phrase, the proposed title gets zero. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
You're attacking something I didn't even try to contend. Of course it is violence but I am talking about anti-christian discrimination which are not always violent in nature. Going by your infantile logic "Persecution of Christians in India"/"Christian Persecution in India" get plenty of hits too (132,000 & 134,000 respectively). Your arguments don't prove anything. You're as dogmatic and, frankly, as childishly obdurate against dissenting views as usual. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 06:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • There needs to be an article here at this title on this topic. It can operate as the more serious subset of an article on broader persecution/intolerance related issues listed at, say, the title the proposer has suggested. As an example, voluntary manslaughter is an article that invariably stems from anger. We have separate articles on these related topics because each one is significant to stand on its own. The article on anti-Christian "sentiment" or whatever should be written, but the article on violence should still stand. Red Slash 21:31, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Persecution of Christians in India redirects to this page that means people who want to read more than just violence will also be reading the page, hence it will be more precise to redirect this page to Persecution of Christians in India. That way everybody is satisfied. I am saying this because every form of violence is a form of persecution but not the other way around. In addition to that, I see no reason to narrow it down to only violence while ignoring other pernicious facets of anti-Christian behaviour everywhere in India.
Now, I could create a page for Anti-Christian intolerance in India or Persecution of Christians in India but it will almost inevitably be AFDed as a coatrack. Besides, we don't need two separate articles basically repeating the same things. Persecution of Christians in India will obviously include violence and much more than that.
Anti-Christian violence in India can redirect to Persecution of Christians in India just as it redirects to this page now. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 06:53, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • OpposeSupport - Persecution of Christians mean a very different thing, the current title would be apt. Unlike the systematic violence against Hindus in Kashmir which can be called as persecution there is no such systematic violenece against christians in whole of India. There might violence incidents and many such incidents were the result of one or the other disputes. -sarvajna (talk) 08:10, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the statement that the violence is not as ubiquitous against Christians of India as it is against Hindus or Muslims perhaps. But with respect to your interpretation of the word "persecution", I would say the word "persecution" is more appropriate here, however sporadic it may be, persecution means "to subject a person, group etc. to hostility or ill-treatment esp. on grounds of political or religious belief" that's what is going on in Jammu and Kashmir, Orissa. I don't know why but it seems people don't want to post information about the discrimination and the immense intolerance Christians face in certain states of India that are rife with Communal hatred and bigotry. It is demoralizing to witness. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 08:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
According to the article the last reported violence against Christians in orissa was in 2008 and I see that only two major incidents are mentioned, Dara Singh and the Kandhamal. Even if we consider the argument that there is perpetual violence against Christians in the state of J&K and Orissa this would not mean that Christians are being persecuted all over India. -sarvajna (talk) 09:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I have changed my opinion after the discussion, the title would not give space to other kinds of discrimination that are faced by Christians in parts of India, a more apt title would be "Violence and discimination against Christians in India" or something like that however even the proposed title makes sense. -sarvajna (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
As nom, I fully support the name Violence and discrimination against Christians in India or anything that would make way for inclusion of content beyond conventional purview of violence. Mr T(Talk?) (New thread?) 11:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose "persecution" proposal. It makes it sound as if the Indian government were officially persecuting Christians (e.g. comparable to what Christians face in Iran or Communist China), while the situation in India is actually non-governmental actors attacking and otherwise harassing Christians. I understand the nominator's concerns, so I'm not at all convinced that this page is currently at the best title, but the proposal would be worse. Nyttend (talk) 20:31, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
  • This has run for over seven days now and needs to be closed as no consensus for move. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Avoid downplaying - by removing the word "violence" the proposed change would downplay it too much, but I support the proposed alternative, Violence and discrimination against Christians in India. --Stfg (talk) 23:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.