|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-aircraft warfare article.|
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Links from this article with broken #section links (check):
- 1 Gap in US Army Equipment?
- 2 Structuring needed
- 3 Move to "Air Defense"?
- 4 fuze/fuse
- 5 Shooting down aircrafts with small arms?
- 6 German Term
- 7 Decline in conventional flak
- 8 Barrage balloons?
- 9 Need separate article on AAA
- 10 Skysweeper but no Soviet/Russian Guns?
- 11 B-24 20mm?
- 12 Consistent Mistake regarding 1-pounder Guns
- 13 Removal of Claim that Nike Ajax SAM was based on German Wasserfall
- 14 Need for Consistency across Articles on the same Subject
- 15 Suggested Removal of PZA Loara Image
- 16 effective altitudes
- 17 Sawing off wings
- 18 Reference
- 19 120 mm M1 Gun
- 20 Definitions - article title
- 21 SPAAG Being Replaced
- 22 Range-finding by searchlight?
- 23 File:Amd sa11.jpg Nominated for Deletion
- 24 Civilian options?
- 25 optronics
- 26 "organic weapons"
- 27 Article doesn't really explain its subject
- 28 Does ack-ack derive from the German for eight-eight?
Gap in US Army Equipment?
I belive the statement, "The United States Army has disdained air defense for ground units, counting on achieving air superiority. This has left a gap in American military equipment between the man-portable Stinger and the theater anti-missile system Patriot." should be removed. The existence of the Avenger Missle System, which has been in service since 1989, seems to disprove it.
- It would be good to find a source which confirms or denies this statement. The presence of the Avenger alone doesn't really prove anything; it depends on the level of deployment, the presence and nature of AA assets at coy, bn, bde, div levels, doctrine, etc. —Michael Z. 2005-11-5 17:08 Z
- By checking the Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE), a US Division has 1 battalion of Air Defense Artillery assigned with between 1 and 3 batteries (companies) using the Avenger (12 Avengers per battery). Heavier divisions also have M6 Linebackers assigned (anti-aircraft versions of the M2 Bradley IFV). Check it out at GlobalSecurity.org. I think that disproves the statement in question. Movementarian 14:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
- If there are no objections I am going to replace the disdain statement with something about the US Army Air Defense Artillery Regts. Movementarian 18:11, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The replacement to the above statement creates a misleading sense that the US Army has a comprehensive air defence system. The statement above is actually very close to being accurate (much closer than its replacement). Avenger and Linebacker are both glorified FIM-92 carriers+rangefinder. I'm not sure "disdain" is appropriate (and the XXI division has a MUCH strengthened SHORAD component in comparison to the older organization), but they definitely don't pay as much attention to it as some other Armies. So I replaced everything by listing out the main tiers and letting the reader decide the difference. Kazuaki Shimazaki 05:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article needs disambiguation and restructuring badly. We should distinct between the weapon systems (i.e. mostly technical issues) and military organization (strategy, tactics, battle history, ranks so forth). One should know that "air defense" is not just a type of warfare, but also a name for the distinct military detachments (or whole forces - such as in USSR and North Korea). Would someone fix this because my English military terms are relatively poor (but ready to consult and discuss). AlexPU 17:06, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'm working on this. Making some progress. Nvinen 15:08, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Move to "Air Defense"?
The title "Anti-aircraft" sounds funny. Is it a noun? "Anti-aircraft warfare" or "Air defense" sounds much better. Comments? Kowloonese 21:39, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to get some kind of consensus on what the title for this article should be, since the current title seems awkward and ungrammatical. Something like "Anti-Aircraft warfare" or "Air Defense" would be good, I think. Something that's a noun, at least. Night Gyr 19:21, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be moved to "Air defence", with a link from "Anti-aircraft" and possibly "Anti-aircraft warfare". I suppose it doesn't really matter if it's defence or defense but I'd put a link from one to the other to allow other articles to use either form. Nvinen 08:51, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think you're right. Anti-aircraft warfare is the best choice. So I moved it and all links. Nvinen 14:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Air defence isn't just about ground-based weapons. It includes, for example, fighter interception, radar and observer corps (historically). So two separate articles are needed: an overview article about air defence in general, and a separate one that deals with AAA. Spliced 21:53, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Is there a good reason "fuze" was changed to "fuse"? In my experience, the type of device we're talking about (proximity fuze, contact fuze, etc.) is usually spelled with a z. Dictionary.com agrees with me: . I use fuze for this type of situation and fuse for, say, fusing two items together, despite the fact that I speak British English...
Shooting down aircrafts with small arms?
The current article states that most aircraft casualties in modern war are from small arms fire. that smells like bullshit to me. Fighters are armoured and it would be extremely difficult to shoot down a jet aircraft moving at mach 1.5 with a 9 mm. Shooting down low flying aircrafts with a bofors 40 mm would be much more likely.I would love to see some proof that most aircraft casualties are from small arms fire.
The above comment smacks of battlefield 3 tacticool.
Does man-portable AA missiles count as small arms? (Forgive me if this question is stupid...)--Kultz 02:48, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
No man portable AA missiles are not small arms. Small arms are conventional man portable firearms which shoot down a extremly minute amount of aircraft. Whoever wrote they shoot down the majority of aircraft must have missunderstood or something.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 10:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I've often run across the claim that an advantage of the AK-47 over the M-16 is that the larger calibur ammunition was not particularly helpful against personell, but was an advantage in shooting at aircraft.
- Perhaps, but when you're trying to shoot down an aircraft...you want full-auto like that of the AK-47 --mboverload 00:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think "shooting down aircraft with small arms" mean shooting down helicoptors, not jets.
Tangential comment: small arms have a very low chance of hitting and damaging airplanes, but I understand that the Soviet Cold-War antiaircraft doctrine was that ever available weapon including small arms would be trying to fill the air in front of a low-flying NATO jet with lead. I suspect pistols and SMGs would not be eligible. —Michael Z. 2006-05-17 15:53 Z
- That was US doctrine also; I recall questioning it at the time ;) DMorpheus (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Here's an army manual on small arms air defense; it includes heavy machine guns as small arms.
- Additionally, I wonder if anyone knows if anti-materiel rifles (.50 BMG) could actually be used in the AA defense. I've heard that the Finns shot down a few planes during WWII using their 20mm rifle, but I'd like to see a definitive study/manual about using anti-material rifles this way. (IMHO, shooting the pilot really shouldn't count as an AA kill...) --UnneededAplomb (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- That was US doctrine also; I recall questioning it at the time ;) DMorpheus (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe the statement regarding aircraft casualties reflects combat situations more than the suitability of small arms for the purpose. The majority of recent aircraft losses in combat have been situations where an industrialized nation completely controls the airspace over a numerically superior force armed largely with small arms. Small arms will cause the majority of aircraft losses when small arms are the only thing being fired at aircraft. Despite measures taken for pilot protection, jet turbines operate at high speeds and high temperatures within close tolerances; and are easily damaged by any solid material, including bullets, ingested pieces of a damaged forward airframe, and broken turbine blades. Hydraulic systems necessary for actuation of control surfaces are similarly vulnerable to damage causing leaks and ultimate loss of aircraft control.Thewellman (talk) 14:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
The german term stated as the root of flak is different from the one stated in the wiktionary. Here it is Flugabwehrkanone (and in the disambiguation page for flak), Wiktionary states Fliegerabwehrkanone.
The correct German term really is Flugabwehrkanone. Please have a look at the German sister page as well as at at least somewhat authorative sites like http://www.geschichte.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN48PDnYDSYGYAYb6kTChoJRUfV-P_NxUfW_9AP2C3IhyR0dFRQAq1YIQ/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82XzdfU1NI (History pages of German Airforce, sorry for long url) or http://www.bundesarchiv.de/bestaende_findmittel/bestaendeuebersicht/body.html?id_main=1643&where=naeheres&what=id_bestand&id_bestand=1643 (Federal German Archive catalogizing documents from WW 1, see first blue box). --MBP 22:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Decline in conventional flak
I have removed the passage that stated large long-range AAA guns like the 88mm no longer exist. This is incorrect, while their use has declined in favor of SA missilesthey are still used due to thie relative inexpensiveness.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 10:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
- It would seem reasonable to say that modern missiles have partly replaced the need for very large AA guns. —Michael Z. 2005-11-5 17:09 Z
As someone who recently read Steinbeck's "Once there was a war", I got interested in the use of barrage balloons for air defense. As "Air defense" is redirected to "Anti-aircraft warfare", it would have been interesting to read someone knowledgeable's description of their use and effectivity.
Perhaps someone could add a section about that?
Anders Berglund 09:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Need separate article on AAA
This article is on the general topic. We have a specific article on SAMs, but we need an overview of guns too. Anybody up for splitting it out and repointing the redirects? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Presumably it would be good if this anti-aircraft warfare article fitted into the same pattern as Armoured warfare ie that nice nav box down the side. Though how assymetric got in there - longbow vs french cavalry - not a sole technical advantage but more a combination of weapon and disposition. .55 Webley vs Maori war club that's a technical advantage. But I digressGraemeLeggett 09:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Skysweeper but no Soviet/Russian Guns?
Russian AAA weapons were utilized in air defense in North Vietnam and in other conflicts but is not mentioned in this article. Also, where would be mention of such weapons as "Shilka" or various other mobile AAA? Hatcat 01:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an amazing image of a B-24 breaking up after being hit by flak. The caption states it is 20mm fire, but the image page does not specify the source. Looking at the picture I'd estimate the aircraft is over 10k feet in altitude which makes it extremely unlikely this is a 20mm hit, and almost certainly an 88. Can anyone say more about this image? Maury 04:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- The wing of the plane is burning and tearing off, which suggests something lit the fuel in it. I'm not sure that Flak can do that, but my intuition claims that it was shot with by a German Interceptor, which usually has 15, 20, and 30 mm light cannons. Victory in Germany (talk) 13:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Consistent Mistake regarding 1-pounder Guns
The article claimed twice that guns firing a one-pound projectile are of 20 mm caliber. That is technically impossible, the heaviest 20 mm projectiles ever used were around 150-160 grm in weight, which is only a third of a pound. The actual caliber of the one-pounder guns used first as AAA , e.g. the Maxim Pom-Pom, was typically 37 mm. Now corrected. Textor 09:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- I can only find one instance of "1 pound" in the article, and no calibre is mentioned. Am I missing something? Maury 13:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes - my previously unmentioned edit of said problem. Look at the article's history, and compare the current with an earlier version. Textor 21:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Removal of Claim that Nike Ajax SAM was based on German Wasserfall
I deleted the following statement on the Ajax guided anti-air missile: (based on the German Wasserfall). According to the articles on the Nike_Ajax and the Wasserfall, the former was developed independently of the latter. The legacy of the Wasserfall is described as: After World War II, the Wasserfall design was used as a basis for both the American Hermes-A1 missile and a Soviet research programme under the codename R-101. Textor 16:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Need for Consistency across Articles on the same Subject
user:Maury_Markowitz reverted this delete, stating that the Wasserfall-NIke connection is well documented. In this case, may I suggest that the sources proving this connection be referenced, and the respective articles on the missiles updated to include the information? Otherwise, they will appear inconsistent, if not contradictory. Personally, I have currently no such sources available. Textor 20:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Uhhh, last I checked, both the Wasserfall and Project Nike state this. Oh, no, I take that back, it appears Project Nike does not have this statement, at least any more.
- The history that I have read, in several places, states that reports on Wasserfall were captured and returned to the US where they were evaluated as part of the existing BTL work on missile systems -- these had started in early 1944, but had remained strictly paper projects until Feb '45. Additionally, several Wasserfall C-1's were sent to the US. I've read this on several places on the 'web, and I believe I first heard it in one of Ian Hogg's books (typically fairly well checked, if lacking detail), but I'm guessing he was just quoting Lussar. At least one of these still exists, on display at Aberdeen.
- That's not to say it's correct, however. I also have conflicting information which states that Wasserfall data was not known when they were compiling the AAGM Report of May '45. It was this report that led directly to the go-ahead on Project NIKE. But given this conflict I went with what I had seen "everywhere else" (for instance, Ed Thelen's notes). Nor should the language state that Ajaz WAS Wasserfall, Ajax was, of course, a far more developed and practical weapon. Maury 22:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've continued to try to find more information on this, and failed. It appears I may have been repeating an internet myth! I'm going to take the Army's word for it and move the mention of the possible Wasserfall link to a separate sentence. Maury 15:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Suggested Removal of PZA Loara Image
Three reasons: 1. the image was put in the introductory section, instead of the one on Post-War developments. If you want to restore it, please put it there 2. The PZA Loara may lack notability as a representative example for SPAAGs, compared to others: it is a recent project, used solely by Poland, and its technology appears unremarkable. Older, more widely employed SPAAGs like the Russian ZSU-23-4 Shilka, or the German Gepard, may make more recognizeabale examples. Alternatively, the Tunguska-M1 could be used as an example that is both more widely employed and technologically advanced. 3. The image is also already used as an illustration for the SPAAG article. Textor 19:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
To the owner of the IP 126.96.36.199:
how about an explanation why you put up the above mentioned image again, in the same inappropriate place, in spite of its dubious relevance? Are there any good reasons why it has to be posted twice, in this article and the one on SPAAGS? Textor 22:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
what a funny article...the whole thing is about anti-aircraft weapons, but no information is given for effective engagement altitudes of the weapons mentioned, or define what the various altitudes are in terms of defining the AA/AD units. --Mrg3105 02:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Sawing off wings
The article states:
- Because the Quad 50's 4 separate guns could be pre-set to converge at a given distance, it could saw off the wing of a low-flying enemy plane attempting to complete a strafing run.
This sounds like a military urban legend to me. Simple analysis: WW2 fighter plane speeds varied from about 275 knots (450 fps) to 390 knots (640 fps). Let's work with 450 fps to be conservative. The rate of fire of the .50 cal is around 500 rounds per minute, so a quad 50 is about 2,000 rounds per minute, or 33 rounds per second. Hence, if a plane flies past perpendicularly the average spacing between (potential) hits is 450 fps x 1/33 s = 13.5 feet, which is obviously not even in the ballpark of "sawing off wings". This spacing can be reduced by a factor of sinθ if the plane is flying not perpendicularly to the line of fire, but more or less straight at it, but it is going to have to be almost perfectly aligned to do any "sawing". In short this claim looks bogus to me.-- 188.8.131.52 11:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this is very likely a legend, though for different reasons:
making the barrels of a multiple-gun AA mount converge at a given distance would requiry rather complicated and precisely moveable installations for each gun - in addition to the ones needed for laying the whole mount. For all that complication, it would not add very much to the lethality of the weapon, but make hitting rapidly moving targets more difficult. Also, the .50 M2 Brownings with their moving barrels had a rather high dispersion, which would negate to some degree the possible benefit of concentration their fire.
As to the sawing off of wings: that may happend when lucky hits magange to break a wing spar, especially on lighly built aircraft like e.g. the Japanese Mitsubishi Zeros. But it would be much harder to achieve this effect with the small, non-explosive .50 projectiles, compared to the explosive shells of heavier AA-guns, like the German quadruple 20 mm Flak 38.
I suggest we remove this eddit, unless it can be properly referenced.
Textor 17:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
120 mm M1 Gun
Wikipedia entry for 120 mm M1 gun states " No 120 was ever fired at an enemy aircraft." Obviously it wasn't much use. Added this info.
Definitions - article title
Despite earlier discussion this article is wrongly named. AAW is not the same as AD.
AAP-6 (NATO Glossary) sets the following definitions:
air defence AD All measures designed to nullify or reduce the effectiveness of hostile air action.
anti-air warfare AAW Measures taken to defend a maritime force against attacks by airborne weapons launched from aircraft, ships, submarines and land-based sites.
Also note: active air defence Active measures taken against attacking enemy forces to destroy or nullify any form of air or missile threat or to reduce the effectiveness of any such attack.
passive air defence Passive measures taken for the physical defence and protection of personnel, essential installations and equipment in order to minimize the effectiveness of air and/or missile attack.
defensive counter-air operation Active and passive defensive measures designed to detect, identify, intercept, and destroy or make ineffective forces attempting to attack or to penetrate friendly airspace.
SPAAG Being Replaced
The sentence stating that most SPAAGS have been replaced by MANPADS is obviously inconsistent with the page on SPAAGs where at least a dozen modern SPAAGS from various countries in deployment are listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Range-finding by searchlight?
Descriptions of Second World War anti-aircraft defences often refer to bombers being "coned" by multiple searchlights. Was this ever used for measuring altitude? If you had an aircraft coned by three (or even two) searchlights at surveyed locations connected by telephone, simultaneously measuring the angle of the lights from vertical would enable you to do a trigonometric calculation of the altitude of the aircraft. That would be be of great assistance in accurately setting time fuses. Did anyone ever try it? Peter Bell (talk) 09:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Altitude estimation was a primary function of searchlights; but measurement, computation, and communication difficulties limited practical accuracy within available engagement time. Aside from problems with communication protocol for identifying and keeping more than one searchlight on the same aircraft, computational methods devised for ship targeting with contemporary convergent optical rangefinders were complicated by adding a third angle.Thewellman (talk) 16:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
File:Amd sa11.jpg Nominated for Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Amd sa11.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
I checked out this article to get a primer on what licenses civilians would need for surface to air missiles such as the stinger and other possible civilian options. Obviously I will be able to find the information elsewhere but it would have been helpful to myself if this information was included.
The section mentioning radar being superseded by optronics doesn't make sense because optronics is defined on the physics page as stuff on the electromagnetic spectrum, like radar.
In the line "Self-defence by ground forces using their organic weapons" - What is meant by that? Spitting? Zerg devourers? I just don't get what "organic weapons" means if you take this term seriously. If it is a specific technical term, it needs an explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 01:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
AAA in Korean War
The section title POSTWAR infers all actions following WWII were incidental or unremarkable. This section needs to be enlarged to include AAA in the Korean War. Almost from the opening days, the 26th AAA was used much more for infantry support than for antiaircraft, with AAA units becoming known as "The Automatic Infantry" in the desperate delaying actions along the Kum River, at Taejon and throughout the defense of the Naktong Perimeter. Many men were highly decorated for their actions in Korea, including the Distinguished Service Cross to Harold Haugland, Montana, (15th AAA) during actions at the Chosin Reservoir.
Article doesn't really explain its subject
This article seems to assume an understanding of the principles of AA (or FLAK). I wasn't able to find anywhere that really explains how it works or how high the shells can be launched, etc. In particular, I looked up "Flak" and was redirected here to get all kinds of more general information (barrage balloons, whatever) that seems quite irrelevant to flak. Beowulf (talk) 03:38, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Does ack-ack derive from the German for eight-eight?
This article currently states that the term "ack-ack" derives from the spelling alphabet used by the British Army for voice transmission of "AA". According to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ack-ack the derivation is "British army World War I phonetic alphabet for AA, abbreviation of anti-aircraft". However according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ack-ack the derivation was from the British signalmen's former telephone pronunciation of AA, abbreviation of antiaircraft, first Known Use: 1926. World War 1 obviously predates 1926, so we have a mismatch here. At http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ack-ack it places the origin of its use to describe anti-aircraft guns in 1935 only. At http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ack-ack they attribute the first use to 1939.
My understanding is that the derivation was from the German "acht acht", meaning 88, as in the 88mm AA cannon. The Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88mm quotes a source which says the Germans introduced a high-velocity anti-aircraft cannon based on the 88mm in 1917 already. Its thus quite possible that the Germans called it the acht acht gun during WW1, and that the British and others adopted that usage during WW1 for AAA generally. Its a bit of a serious stretch that the British used "ack" to describe the letter A, when the Germans coincidently used the 88mm gun for AA defense and the German word for 88 is acht acht. Wdford (talk) 11:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- The Oxford English Dictionary gives the first use by the British Army of "Ak" for "a" in 1898, "Ack" appears later in a 1904 regulations document. The OED also gives as an example of use a quote from the Daily Mirror in August 1916: The ‘Ack-Ack’ gun..is just an anti-aircraft gun, ‘Ack’ being the name for ‘A’. That the English language having Germanic roots had a similar sound - though different meaning - to a German word is quite plausible.GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Phonetic alphabet. Why would British soldiers even know the Germans used acht acht? How would they know? Voice comms used line, wireless was limited to CW, ie transmit letters in Morse code - AA which would be read out as Ack Ack. And there were very few AA guns in any case. Merriam-Webster is underinformed.Nfe (talk) 08:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)