Talk:Antichrist Superstar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Cleaning up the storyline[edit]

I think this really needs to be done, but thought I should check first. The background section begins with the statement "The album's title is a combination of the concept of the Antichrist with the title of the famed musical Jesus Christ Superstar." I feel this is a little simplistic and probably untrue. It is a statement on how the ugliest and most abhorred people can still become famous for their own reasons, and about using your power to become all you can be. The Jesus Christ Superstar comparison makes it sound like cheap shock tactics or a tacky parody. Also, I've yet to hear any audio evidence of it's similarity to the JCS score. The other section that bothers me is the assertion that the Worm becomes a "rockstar". There's no real evidence of this lyric-wise, all this is based off is the fact that we're listening to music to begin with, and people always try to compare it to Pink Floyd's the Wall. There's some recordings of crowds chanting and cheering on the cd, but large and noisy crowds have gathered for all sorts of people who could be described as Superstars, whether it be Jesus, JFK, famous sportsmen, etc. This should be changed to simply "influential celebrity" or something similar. TheEmpiricalGuy (talk) 12:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Cryptorchid or Cryptorchild?[edit]

I have reverted the edit of 82.74.199.19 back to Cryptorchid, as this is clearly what my copy's tracklisting states.

It is, indeed, Cryptorchid. See also Cryptorchidism. Cparker 16:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It is listed as 'Cryptorchild' in the Synesthesia section of the official website (http://www.marilynmanson.com/synesthesia.php), but this is most probably a mistake.

Empty Sounds of Hate?[edit]

Is there a reference for the track title "Empty Sounds of Hate"? There's no reference to this track title anywhere on the CD case or in the booklet insert. Cparker 02:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

"Empty Sounds of Hate" is the hidden track on the album. I did a quick google search on it. All I could come up with was a random post in a forum that claimed that it was so titled because when the CD was played on some computers, that was the title which came up. Cannot say either way if this is true or false, but I figured I would pass it along.Warhorus 06:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Now that title is back there, should I remove it?
Well googling actually shows lots of websites listing the track as "Empty Sounds of Hate". eXcapiZm 11:49, 30 November 2006
On some versions of the cd tracks 17 to 99 appear on the same track as "Man That You Fear" and is 13:32. I thought I should bring that up as that is how it appears on mine.--Hndsmepete 05:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions to Improve this Article[edit]

  • Brief Information about the Recording Venue of the album could be added.
  • Line-up changes during the recording of this album (eg. Berkowitz leaving and Zim Zum joining)
  • Quotes from Manson about the album, complimented by external links.
  • The impact that his dreams had on the album, eg. in "Little Horn", as described in his autobiography.
  • Information about the recording sessions (mentioned in Manson's autobiography) could be added, eg. about the Minute of Decay etc.), complimented by reference linkd
  • The significance of the number 3 according to Manson, and how he prophecized its Billboard appearance at number 3, supported by reference links.
  • Other chart listings, eg. UK, Canada, Australia.
  • Quotes from Manson supporting this supposed storyline the article maps, supported by reference links.
  • Comment upon the album's direction in contrast to the sound of "Portrait of an American Family".
The article talks about the repeating phrases but only tells about 'When you are suffering, know that i have betrayed you' at the end of ANTICHRIST SUPERSTAR but there is another cyclic message at the end of MAN THAT YOU FEAR "When all of your wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" There may be more but I can't remember them. -$carface
The thing that makes the "if you are suffering, know that I have betrayed you" loop significant is that it both closes and opens the album. The repetition at the end of Man That You Fear is simply a repeated phrase within one song, and as such, not significant. (I changed the indentation on your comment to make for easier reading - hope you don't mind.)--Black Butterfly 13:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


This article right now is ok, but if someone follows my suggestions along with those of their own it could improve immeasurably. User:LuciferMorgan

It would be great if we could get a critical reception section put up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.66.52 (talk) 10:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Industrial Rock?[edit]

I hate crap "like industrial rock/metal" and "alternative". They are no musical genres to me, they are just some stupid expressions used when a genre can`t be easily categorized. What do Marilyn Manson, NIN, Kiss and Rammstein have in common? They are all "industrial"... Keyboards? Come on! As well, what do Marilyn Manson have in common with alternative metal bands like HIM, Rage Against The Machine, Korn, System Of A Down, Tool - all "alternative metal" bands?

Well, what do you have in mind?

If you hate such "crap", then why are you looking this article up in the first place? --72.177.237.207 00:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

He (?) seems to be saying that he dislikes vague, meaningless genre labels rather than the styles of music. I dislike the terms myself as they are essentially meaningless and totally arbitrary, but recognize that the labels are being used popularly and do fulfil a purpose. - It doesn't stick. (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you look up the page for industrial metal, then industrial, and see how it's the best category for the album. And please don't call Kiss Industrial. TheEmpiricalGuy (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Kiss are more "Industrial" than, say, Billy Joel, so why not? I think his point is that, unlike "Blues", "Hip-Hop", "Rockabilly", or "Jazz" (among others) "Industrial", "Industrial Rock", or "Industrial Metal" are too broadly defined to be meaningful when used to describe a certain group's style. I propose no solutions here, but am merely echoing my own frustrations with trying to properly define such things.--- It doesn't stick. (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Come on, to say Kiss is "more industrial" than ANYTHING is just stupid. Kiss clearly has NOTHING to do with industrial music, period. 71.116.54.77 (talk) 04:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I think the only person that would complain about MM being labeled as Industrial Rock/Metal is a person that doesn't even know what post-Industrial music is. You're only frustrated because of your lack of knowledge. You clearly show that by labeling KISS "Industrial". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.54.189.90 (talk) 08:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Mr Superstar[edit]

The song "Mr Superstar," it appears to me, is about the Worm killing the Superstar.

 "Hey, Mr. Superstar
 I'll kill you if I can't have you" 

Beret 19:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I really thought it was sort of a 'If I can't have you, no one will' theme.

It is, this song is not seen from the worm's point of view, if anything more from a fan, or someone looking up to "Mr. Superstar" point of view. ^^ --Jgcooper 20:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The Worm as another person?[edit]

Antichrist Superstar still features Adam as the sole character. He is the rockstar, then the rockstar/worm hybrid, then the disintegrator. Because the name Adam Kadmon represents the being that embodies all in the human realm and god realm, I figured that his change was incited by some divine influence to create an end to a destructive human path discussed more in detail on Holy Wood and Mechanical Animals. He isn't simply human, he is a deity and "Inauguration of the Worm" and "Disintegrator Rising" are Adam realizing this and using that power (part by choice, part reluctantly) to create balance on earth by any means necessary. All stories must have an end. It began with Adam it should end with Adam. His part in all three chapters is too large for Manson to simply write him off right in the middle of Superstar. "Man that You Fear" has too broad of a message to only apply to half of an album. It summarizes Adam's feelings of realizing how far he took his ideals and hatred (from all three records) and regretting his pleasure in it all, for he hurt all that he loved before.

Next:

I agree that there is only one central character, but I disagree on the order. The three forms that the central character takes are

1. Worm 2. Rockstar/superstar 3. Antichrist

You may have placed rockstar first because of the first track, where the character is already a rockstar. In my opinion, the first track on the album actually takes place later in the story, after the worm has become the superstar. It is a common storytelling device to begin the narrative deep within the story, almost near the climax, and then "flash back" to discuss earlier influential events/themes.

Lsyn 20:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


The idea that we have complete imaginative control over the storyline is correct. One person can say from start to finish, the order of songs Manson gave us is the story. A second can read into the lyrics and find chronological quandries and want to switch the tracks around. A third will deny the second, and so on.

I see the storyline operating under the premise that Adam was always a rockstar, but losing and gaining that status at other points in the tale. In Mechanical Animals, he's the rockstar controlled by the supposedly destroyed Holy Wood, who then gains his free will back to become the nihilistic, hateful rockstar with an Antichrist complex. I see Antichrist Superstar as beginning with his coming-out "party" on stage because he knows that his only supporters are his fans and he can have them say and do whatever he wants.

Where the story gets creepy is when all the while Adam was focused on the physical world and what he could do with it, he was being watched by a God-like being who controlled each step of the story since the beginning of Holy Wood. Someone with a mind like Adam's (Holy Wood), who is also half-machine (MA), is a prime candidate for a bit of otherworldly power to do the bidding of this God-like being. The worm, which gives Adam superhuman power to destroy the filth of the human race.

Mercury1138 03:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Need Help with Holy Wood Article[edit]

It seems there are quite a few contributors here who are knowledgeable on the backstory of the trilogy. I've recently tried to cleanup some of the Holy Wood article's rough edges and found section for the synopsis somewhat lacking and with dubious info ~ Adam turned into a repressive tyrant? Please, if anyone can devote some time to that page. Also, I think this begs the question of whether the trilogy itself deserves its own dedicated article.

202.65.191.138 (talk) 12:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I've recently overhauled that section of the Holy Wood article. Check to see it is improved.

-121.96.181.169 (talk) 10:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Cryptorchid[edit]

Note that Cryptorchid is probably intended as a dual meaning: a cryptorchid is a medical term for someone genderless or robbed from his malehood, but it can also be read as a "crypt orchid": a flower on a grave. In the song the transformation into an evil character is starting ("when a boy is still a worm it's hard to get to number 7" - "the moon has now eclipsed the sun, the angel has spread his wings, the time has come for bitter things"). In the video of the song (not sure if it an official video, but it is all over the internet) the Angel of Death appears, as a symbol of transformation into the evil character who in the end causes the apocalypse (in the song Reflecting God). Manson himself stated a few times that the album was based on his own view and interpretation of the apocalypse.

Please note the errors in the previous post. The antichrist, Little Horn, does not destroy the world in The Reflecting God as was posted, because in this particular track, the antichrist has already destroyed the world and is reflecting on what he has done. He actually destoyed the world in Minute of Decay.

Second Opinion:

I don't agree. "The Reflecting God" is clearly the climax of the storyline, in which the antichrist brings apocalypse, not by literally "destroying the world", but by destroying the concept of God ('killing' God) in the minds of his followers. Part of the chorus is the superstar/antichrist character revealing the nature of God to his followers,

"I went to God just to see, and I was looking at me. Saw heaven and hell were lies, when I'm God everyone dies."

The antichrist understands that he can be God through his own will (this reminds me of Nietzsche's 'will to power' concept.) The subsequent "scar, scar, can you feel my power" represents the violent act of 'killing' God.

Lsyn 20:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I like to think that he has only just begun his rule at the end of Antichrist Superstar. If you want to get precise "the boy that you loved is the man that you fear" is present tense. Who would fear him but a human with something to lose? And "when I'm God, everyone dies" is future tense. Therefore, the world can not have been destroyed before the third record ends.

Mercury1138 03:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research: storyline[edit]

The "Possible storylines" section is most definitely original research, and has no citations. Unless one can cite quotes from Manson himself, or reputable music critics, then it should be removed without a second thought. LuciferMorgan 20:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, the "Possible Storylines" section should be included, as it is informative and helpful when trying to understand some of Manson's more vague, yet crucial, points. Although fansites can provide these as well, they have a tendency to be biased and opinionated. It can be agreed that citations are of importance, however, a complete lack thereof should not be the only grounds for removal.

Next:

This page deserves a simple, elegant description of the overall storyline that is consistent with lyrical/artistic evidence from the album. As for citations, we have just as much right as a "reputable music critic" to craft an explanation, and Manson mostly kept his mouth shut to allow fans to develop independent interpretations of his work.

As it stands I don't think the story explanation on this page is very good. It makes much more sense to talk about the development of a single character going through transformations, rather than a worm being "attracted to a self-abusive rock star" and then transforming into the Antichrist. We don't need to introduce surperfluous characters when a single one will explain things perfectly well. I don't have a quote for this, but didn't Mansion mention that he once had fantasies of personally being the Antichrist? If that is so, this album could parallel his own fantasy of transforming from a worm to a rockstar and ultimately to the disintegrator. Is anyone familiar with that quote? Lsyn 20:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Manson has said on more than one occasion that he considers himself to be the "all-american Antichrist". I quote of Rock 'n' Roll Nigger (Smells Like Children, 1995, Nothing/Interscope):

  "...because I am the all-American Antichrist..." 216.24.8.72 03:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That being said, can we change the content of the main page to reflect the fact that there is only one central character who goes through two major changes from worm -> rockstar -> antichrist? If there are no objections in a week or so I'll change it.

Lsyn 05:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The grounds for removal is the original research is groundless. It has no basis in reality - anything regarding album themes should use interview quotes. As for the "Possible storylines" being removed, it's about time, and every time it's re-added I will gladly remove it once more - stick to the facts, not bullshit speculation. LuciferMorgan 14:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that we do not need a highly speculative "possible storylines" section, but the page deserves a simple, one-line description of the main idea of the album that is more plausible than the one we have now, in my opinion. While I agree that quotes are important, the "basis in reality" for the bare-bones minimalist description of the storyline is the lyrical evidence from the album itself, which I think is quite clear. It makes no sense to completely ignore the information already given to us, directly by the artist, in the song lyrics. Yes, we should limit speculation to a minimum, and yes, we should find some interview quotes to back up more substantial claims. But you are proposing that we throw out the most basic source of information we have, in the hopes of having the foundational idea of the album spoon-fed to us in an interview. I do not think we will find that, and we should come to a rational, simple conclusion about the album theme with as few assumptions as possible, which is what I tried to do in my proposal. In any case, I found one interview quote that we could perhaps use,:

"For me, Antichrist Superstar was kind of an experiment, a study. A study about the abuse of power, how power can be abused in politics, religion, music. The whole thing about it was to put your emotions aside and become as powerful, as mighty as possible. To leave your feelings outside." http://www.nyrock.com/interviews/manson_int2.htm

I look forward to hearing your feedback and hope that we can come to a fruitful agreement on this matter. Lsyn 04:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place for original research to be published, it is a place for reputable information to be collated and presented. As such, any interpretation of the album which is not simply summarising analysis from a reputable source, does not belong on this page. Simple as.
The explanation on this page should be limited to quotes from Manson himself, information from music critics, and possibly a summary of possible theories (tho it would raise so many complications I'm not sure it's worth it). --Black Butterfly 18:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

1996[edit]

uhh, isnt there a song on the album called "1996" its all about Anti- stuff, or is that on a different album, because lyrics sites have it listed as part of "Antichrist Superstar"

it's track thirteen on this album, as listed in the article. --Black Butterfly 10:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Daisy Berkowitz Credits?[edit]

Daisy does have credits to the album, even if not present on the original printings. - MSTCrow 21:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Track Listing[edit]

Can sombody confirm the track listing? I'm at work so cannot (only have the CD), but my BMG Music Club pressing of the CD has the title track on 13 but 2 and 14 definitely match. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 17:51, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Tracks 17-98[edit]

You're joking right? Zazaban 21:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

No, why would we? See hidden track. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 02:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

But.... 99 tracks? Zazaban 15:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as explained. NIN's Broken did it the same way... — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 02:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Well I'll be damned..... Zazaban 05:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

track listing (again)[edit]

I have removed the following from the article:

On an interesting note, some of the blank tracks have names. Playing the CD on Windows Media Player allows the listener to see these titles:

  • 17) untitled
  • 18) Reunion
  • 19) Cleansing
  • 20) spiderman
  • 21) Untitled
  • 22-98) [Silence]

As it is unreferenced and dubious at best ("spiderman"?). unless any reputable reference can be found indicating that (a) this is actually the case, and (b) that it is intentional (ie not someone renaming the tracks prior to putting them on a file sharing service), I feel it does not belong here.

Incidentally, both Reunion and Cleansing are tracks by Marilyn Manson - but they are instrumentals from Resident Evil (soundtrack). --Black Butterfly 11:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Angel with the Scabbed Wings[edit]

"The influence of the latter can also be seen in the song "Angel with the Scabbed Wings", which features a riff strongly reminiscent of a portion of the Jesus Christ Superstar score."

Does anyone have an audio proof of this? Buzda 03:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Antichrist Superstar (song)[edit]

Why do people keep removing the link to Antichrist Superstar (Marilyn Manson song)? It's a song from this album, with its own article, so I see no reason not to link to it. --Black Butterfly 12:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Marilyn Manson - Antichrist Superstar.jpg[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

Image:Marilyn Manson - Antichrist Superstar.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Reviews of the Album[edit]

Could we find better reviews? The RS one leads to an archive that has nothing to do with manson, and the other one leads to a page that tries to install a DLL onto your computer.

24.207.58.166 (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to say[edit]

This is one of my favorite albums, and being curious about the background of the album I checked here a few months back to see what I could find. Ultimately, I found myself disappointed in the quality of the article. Today, I came back to check it out after listening to the CD again, and nothing has really changed.

Since it's been a while now, I'm assuming it's a pretty cold topic that will probably never get cleaned up. But just in case anyone does stumble upon this page and feels the same way and is actually willing to try, then I just have one thing to say. The biggest problem with this page (and a seemingly endless list of other pages on Wikipedia without a doubt,) is that there are no citations or references to any outside sources, other than what seems to be complete opinion. If you scroll down to "references" at the bottom of the wiki, you'll see that there's two references. The first one is cited to the genre "Heavy Metal" under the information of the album, and the second one cites how many copies have been sold around the world, and that's it. That's pathetic.

Now to me, the story to this album seems very vague overall, leaving it as a very open topic for discussion. And as interesting as all of these ideas are, none of them are fact, (that is, they are not proven to be fact.) Find some primary sources, like from the artist in question! Secondary sources are great too, which can be found almost anywhere like; record companies, fan pages, articles, whatever! Just cite the things you put here with an appropriate reference. Otherwise, the page will probably just get deleted someday.

Hoping for the best and what this album deserves, - Mariachi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mariachi2324 (talkcontribs) 22:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this album needs more citations. I'd be more than willing to clean it up a bit, but it'd have to wait until school gets out. Some time in July? Anyways, were you thinking of any other additions? Because I was thinking of fixing up the reception section, and essentially destroying the storyline part. Let's face it, the storyline has been far too vague to write anything with concrete fact. And now I don't know where my comment is going... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert Berkshire (talkcontribs) 20:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

More credit for Twiggy[edit]

I know that he's in the song list section as having written most of the music but I think sentence should be added somewhere describing his importance. Kansaikiwi (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Irresponsible hate anthem 02-14-1997[edit]

It adds up to 33, the age when Jesus died. Inevitably, 33 adds up to six, the number of the beast ohnoes!. Should this be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.50.144.235 (talk) 23:19, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Total Worldwide Sales[edit]

I know that ABC News is allegedly a "good source", but before their article came out, it was stated that Antichrist Superstar has sold over 7.5 Million copies, and i remember it was published on MTV and on a coverage about him on another channel in 2008. If you have any information please comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellspriest (talkcontribs) 04:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

For future reference once I get around to working on this article.

Alternative cover[edit]

Isn't there an alternative cover for this album?? you know, the red n black one... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vefmiguel (talkcontribs) 20:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean red and black? Are you referring to the one with Manson's face on the left side and the lightning bolt symbol beside it? That's the back cover. It's not an alternative one. -Red marquis (talk) 19:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe not a red and black one, but what about one picturing manson with wings and tubes? [1] I've seen it floating around various places, including Wikipedia at some point. Jasper420