Talk:Anton Webern

Who Shot Anton Webern?

There's a play, Who Shot Anton Webern?, which states that it was Private First Class Raymond Norwood Bell of Mount Olive, North Carolina who shot Webern; this is corroborated elsewhere[1]. However, both of those accounts say that the shooting was accidental, not related to black-market activities. Anybody have insight? --moof 20:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As I remember reading, there was a bust in progress at the house at which he was staying; it was surrounded by soldiers who were instructed not to let anyone escape, and they hadn't yet made their move in. Webern stepped onto a veranda for his after-dinner cigar, and one of the soldiers shot him, thinking it was someone trying to escape. I'd have to look around to see where I read this, but as far as I know it was an "accidental" shooting by a soldier who was literally following orders. Antandrus (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The nyu link above doesn't work for me, so I can't check it. I'd be interested in seeing it because I'm uncomfortable with a play as a source for "fact." But that said, the play script I saw does not say the shooter was drunk, only that he later WAS a drunk. I'm going to remove the word from the article. John (Jwy) 23:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks. I'd never read that he was drunk either. Antandrus (talk) 23:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd always heard that the man who shot him was so filled with remorse over the killing that he later became an alcoholic. This first article Google pulled up seem to confirm that:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050907-NL-webern.html

-- Rizzleboffin 00:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

For the first 15 years, the only source of information on Webern's death was the Webern family, who related that while visiting at the home of his son-in-law Benno Mattel, Webern was shot by an American soldier while Mattel was being arrested by the Americans for black-market activity. The family did not know the name of the soldier or precise details of the shooting, and no statement was released on the incident by the U.S. Army. In 1959 Hans Moldenhauer launched an attempt to obtain papers from Army files relating to the incident. He succeeded in contacting several persons involved, and he published his findings in the book The Death of Anton Webern (Philosophical Library, 1961). To summarize Moldenhauer's conclusions, Mattel had been approaching American soldiers wanting to buy such items as sugar and coffee to sell on the black market. The Army decided to entrap Mattel and sent PFC Raymond Bell (a cook) and 1st Sergeant Andrew Murray to Mattel's house on September 15 for this purpose. While Murray and Bell were negotiating with Mattel in the kitchen on a price for the items, Webern had gone out onto the front porch to smoke a cigar. When Mattel came to an agreement with the soldiers and took out his money to make the payment, the soldiers drew their pistols and told Mattel he was under arrest. Murray then sent Bell back to the Army post to get reinforcements to accompany Mattel to jail. Bell, with pistol in hand, dashed out the front door and collided with Webern on the front porch. Bell thought he was being attacked by an accomplice of Mattel and shot Webern. Bell was already dead when Moldenhauer wrote his book, but Bell's widow related to Moldenhauer that her husband had great remorse over the shooting and died of alcoholism. ThomasM 22:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you put a References section with a citation of the book in the article? I think the article is consistent with that explanation now, yes? John (Jwy) 22:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! John (Jwy) 04:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Twelve-tone technique

"he became one of the best-known exponents of the twelve-tone technique"

This does not make any sense. Selfinformation 17:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Why? Henry^Flower 17:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that my comment is not entirely clear... I meant to suggest a rephrasing of that fact. It seems to me strange to call a person an exponent of a technique... Do you understand? Selfinformation 23:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you've still lost me. What's the difficulty? Henry^Flower 19:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me semantically incorrect to state a person to be an exponent of an abstractum such as a technique... Somebody has already changed it to "he became one of the best-known proponents of the twelve-tone technique", which makes more sense, in terms of word choice... Best, Selfinformation 19:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Synaesthesia

My Late and Post-Tonal Analysis lecturer, Dr. Alan Street, the editor of the journal Musical Analysis, reliably informs me that Webern often used sound to convey the power of a smell (synaesthesia), should this be included in the article? I don't have any books that quote this at the moment, but I could look it up in the Grove dictionary next week, when I've got this essay on Op. 6 / iii finished... KLF Fitton 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a quick google. There were a few hits, but they all just seemed to be talking about Messiaen's synesthesia and then going on to Webern in a different context. But if you find a source, by all means. Henry^Flower 19:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Grove online doesn't seem to have anything on synesthesia in the Webern article or any mention of Webern in the synesthesia article. Doesn't mean there's nothing to the subject, but it doesn't appear to be in Grove... -- Rizzleboffin 19:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A follow-up: I just checked the indexes of a few books on Webern, including Kathryn Bailey's The life of Webern, Malcolm Hayes' Anton von Webern, Allen Forte's The atonal music of Anton Webern, and Hans Moldenhauer's Anton von Webern, a chronicle of his life and work, and didn't find a mention of synesthesia. I'd be interested to hear about Webern & synesthesia, but don't find anything on it. Perhaps Prof. Street has written something on this subject? -- Rizzleboffin 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if it's the same

But sound sample is about the same as sampling (music) I think? Schissel | Sound the Note! 23:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Stravinsky on Webern

The section on Webern's music begins with a quote from Stravinsky: "Doomed to total failure in a deaf world of ignorance and indifference, he inexorably kept on cutting out his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds, of whose mines he had a perfect knowledge." I love this quote and couldn't agree more, but shouldn't we have a source for it? The best source I can find is A Chicago Symphony Orchestra Program, but I'm not sure if this meets wikipedia standards. JeanneShade (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If memory serves, this quotation is from Stravinsky's "Geleitwort" on p. 7 of the second volume of Die Reihe (1955, titled "Foreword" on p. vii of the 1958 English edition). However, I would want to confirm that source before citing it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Using the search inside feature of Amazon, Camrbidge's Webern Studies seems to confirm this: "Die Reihe 2...opened with a section which...was truly Webern's testimonials.... In a famous epigraph Stravinsky refers to 'his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds' (p. vii)" (xvi). Unfortunately it still doesn't give the full quote. Fortunately my library has a copy of the second Die Reihe, which I will try get & find the quote in soon. JeanneShade (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Just got Die Reihe 2 -- your memory is excellent, the quote is right there in the forward, which reads in full: "The 15 of September 1945, the day of Anton Webern's death, should be a day of mourning for any receptive musician. We must hail not only this great composer but also a real hero. Doomed to a total failure in a deaf world of ignorance and indifference he inexorably kept cutting out his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds, the mines of which he had such a perfect knowledge." This is actually very slightly different than the quote currently on the page, so I'm going to fix the quote and source it accordingly. Thanks so much for the help in finding this. JeanneShade (talk) 02:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I meant to get the full quotation for you, since I own a copy of the English Die Reihe, but you got there first. There are some finicky things about the citation format that need fixing, but they are trivial, and I will attend to them.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a Start-class article; it contains notable gaps in the biography and musicology. My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Endorsing Nazi regime?

I have removed the following sentence from this article:

<<During the war, however, his patriotic fervor led him to endorse the regime in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, where he described Hitler on 2 May 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany.>>

The words "endorse" and "fervor" in the first half of that sentence are not supported by the second half quotations. Hitler as a unique man? Nazi Germany as a new state? Many opponents of Hitler & the Nazi party would share those views too. They are not exclusive to people who support fascism. There's no evidence here that Webern endorsed the Nazi regime. To endorse something is to say "I support this". Not to keep silent or to express neutral opinions that even anti-Nazi activists would agree with. The quotations might be sourced but the conclusion from those quotations is original research.--175.138.214.95 (talk) 08:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Evidently you did not actually consult the Moldenhauer book before removing the sentence. Although it may distort the Moldenhauers' position somewhat (and might require rephrasing the sentence, particularly with regard to the word "endorse", which interprets a longer phrase, "ideologies to which Webern, along with most of the German people, subscribed"), the other letters cited at length in Moldenhauer support the view that Webern's "patriotism grew to a degree so boundless that for a time it distorted even his cultural outlook", though the tone of the sentence now removed does not sit comfortably with the Moldenhauers' characterization, "Proof of this tragic self-delusion is found in a series of letters to Josef Huber". Sources must be represented accurately, of course, and when they are not, corrective action must be taken, but in this case I think you may have thrown out the baby with the bath water.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is this article painting Webern as an opponent of the Nazi ideology? In The Rest is Noise, Alex Ross identifies him as a supporter of it. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

How does this article paint Webern "as an opponent of the Nazi ideology"? I see a single sentence supporting the idea that Webern protested Nazi policy at one point. Do you think that his later evident support should be reinforced in some way?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:08, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

By omission. It is the only information that the article currently provides on this topic, so that is the impression a casual reader is going to walk away with. Toccata quarta (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I see. I guess I had assumed the excised quotation had been restored to the article, possibly in a modified form in order more accurately to reflect the source. I see it has not. Are you now agreeing that this should be done?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Rationale?

I note that ToccataQuarta has excised the following material from the article:

Although Webern had sharply attacked Nazi cultural policies in private lectures given in 1933, their intended publication did not take place at that time, which proved fortunate since this later "would have exposed Webern to serious consequences."<ref>Webern 1963, 7, 19–20.</ref>

The edit summary indicates that a rationale explaining its "problematic" nature will be found here on the Talk page, but I am not finding it. What is problematic about it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

As I said previously, the article gave the casual reader the impression that Webern was a critic of the Nazi regime, by not mentioning his statements praising Hitler and "the new Germany" (or whatever expression he actually used). The information may be restored, but with proper contextualisation. Toccata quarta (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Now I am really confused. Which material are you referring to—this documentation of "sharp attack", or the other documentation of "endorsement" of Nazi policies, or both? What sort of contextualisation do you regard as proper, without straying into the realm of Original Research, or inserting an unsourced editorial point of view?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you find confusing, but I was simply saying that if the passage I removed is to be restored, it would be ideal to have the article mention other aspects of Webern's relationship to the Nazi regime. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

A second cited claim was removed from this article, and is discussed in the section just above this one. You posted a comment about it a few weeks ago. Since it was of the opposite persuasion to this one, I could not be sure which of the two you meant to restore, or both, and how the objections surrounding them should be resolved. It is of course not uncommon on Wikipedia to simply present contradictory data of this sort, since just about any interpretation would require a source.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the confusion—my original comment was posted in that section simply because of being related to the issue I wished to raise, not because I was commenting on the first deleted passage. So I repeat what I said previously—both things should be in the article, provided they are sourced. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Both items were sourced to begin with. Can you see why I am getting more confused, rather than less?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

If the claim that Webern endorsed the Nazi ideology was sourced, then why did it get deleted? I was under the impression that it was deleted due to being unsourced. Toccata quarta (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

That is a very good question. The anonymous editor who deleted it in March 2011 called attention to the sentence, but omitted to mention it was sourced. Here it is again, with the reference included:

During the war, however, his patriotic fervor led him to endorse the regime in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, where he described Hitler on 2 May 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany.<ref>Moldenhauer and Moldenhauer 1978, 527</ref>

This is why I said to the anonymous editor, "Evidently you did not actually consult the Moldenhauer book before removing the sentence". Perhaps that was not clear from the context of the above discussion. The anonymous editor had objected that "The words 'endorse' and 'fervor' in the first half of that sentence are not supported by the second half quotations", and I conceded that, "Although it may distort the Moldenhauers' position somewhat …", etc., which you can read above. Nothing further has come of this discussion in a year and a half, so I am obliged to you for reviving the discussion. Now, what shall we do about it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)