Talk:Apollo–Soyuz Test Project
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Apollo–Soyuz Test Project article.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Apollo 18?
- 2 Swigert's Removal
- 3 Political background?
- 4 Bognor Regis?
- 5 Language barrier
- 6 Medallion?
- 7 On display in California?
- 8 Androgynous Peripheral Attach System
- 9 Italic text
- 10 Stamps
- 11 Restored edits
- 12 Creating Criticisms Section, Adding to Legacy Section
- 13 Proposed merge of Crews of Apollo–Soyuz Test Project
References to the Apollo as "Apollo 18" were corrected, and a note made as to the inaccuracy of such usage. Per NASA and the official PAO press releases - none of which have been recinded and/or "retconned", as with the "official" Mercury Flight Patches that came out *after* the missions - the flight was listed only as "Apollo", as it represented the entire program and its completion. Some histories list the flight as "Apollo 18" to distinguish the mission from reference to the Apollo program as a whole, but again per NASA the proper reference shorthand should be "ASTP" [unsigned]
- Officially, you're right: all contemporary NASA info referred to the mission as 'Apollo' or 'Apollo-Soyuz' when the two craft were docked. However, several news sources used the 'Apollo 18' nomiker at the time, and even other government agencies, such as NORAD tracking data. After the mission the term became common, even NASA was using it in listing Apollo hardware by the mid '80s. I don't know about other countries, but several British sources I was reading in the late '70s and early '80s used the term from the start. CFLeon (talk) 01:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Per Deke Slayton, and verified by Andrew Chaikin and other space historians, Jack Swigert was in fact assigned to ASTP as CMP, but was removed prior to the official crew announcement as punishment for his involvement in the stamp scandal. The actual grounding wasn't for having actually been involved in the sale of the First Day Covers the A15 crew took with them to the Moon, but for having lied to Deke Slayton about whether he'd had any knowledge of the transaction. Although the NASA PAO recommended that Swigert be removed from the assignment because of his involvement - regardless of how peripheral it was - with the stamp scandal,, Deke Slayton confirmed numerous times before his passing that the actual reason was not that he was involved, but that Swigart had lied to Deke in the face repeatedly when interrogated about said involvement. [unsigned]
Some info on the political background would be nice if somebody has it. 188.8.131.52 21:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Can someone check the Bognor Regis fact. It stinks Wikihoax to me. Grobertson 22:37, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
It does appear to be true. My God, the things we find out. Grobertson 22:38, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- I can't offhand confirm if it is true, but it's certainly plausible - Bognor Regis is (just) south enough to be under the orbital path. Shimgray | talk | 09:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- Bognor Regis was the intended "handshake flyover point", per NASA and the PAO.
I have read that for the sake of clarity of communication, the American astronauts spoke Russian and the Russian ones spoke English as much as possible. If that is true, I find it a noteworthy fact. Blutfink 14:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- So noted in TV Guide article a week or so before the launch. I think it was partly courtesy and partly to ensure the astronauts and cosmonauts heard each other in their own language, however accented. This was also the first time the Soviets televised a launch, live, but they did not permit western new media at the launch site. GBC 21:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I seem to remember there being some type of medallion that both the Russians and Americans had, and somehow each one seperated into 2 pieces, and the two crews exchanged one half. Can someone verify this, and, if it's true, post an image of it? --hello,gadren 21:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
On display in California?
- Ok, I just found out the Apollo module in the RKK Energiya museum is a mock-up. But I've also found references that the Apollo command module is at the Kennedy Space Centre Errabee 04:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- I find that somehow quite criminal. Anyone know what bastard sold Soyuz to America?! 184.108.40.206 13:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)Adieu
Androgynous Peripheral Attach System
I restored edits of mine that Gwen Gale undid. She noted the deletion of "meaningful content," but I did not delete any content other than the unneeded detail on the postage-stamp scandal (which she agreed with, subsequently) and the calculator mention. All other edits tightened up the language (e.g., removing given names after their first mention) or eliminated redundancies (e.g., merging the two mentions of Slayton's medical issues). I reinserted Gale's cleanup tag after restoring my edits.
Gale also mentioned "PoV," which puzzled me because I have no point of view on ASTP whatsoever other than from an interest in space topics in general. Whenever possible I maintained the existing text when making the above edits, and it's possible she thought I was the one who came up with the "personal milestone" wording; I did not.
- Truth be told, I may have been blinded by the crews' earth tone, height-of-1970s-fashion flight suits. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- If "Ylee" is Yeechang Lee, he is a long-respected and reliable source for issues regarding Space History on usenet. Deleting and/or reverting *any* edits he has made - unless on the odd chance that his facts are wrong - is a detriment to the accuracy and usefulness of the article in question. Almost to the point where one could argue vandalism has occurred. Anyone questioning his edits should either contact him directly beforehand, or at least show the minimal courtesy of asking for a source cite before wantonly hacking through his contributions. Thanks!
Creating Criticisms Section, Adding to Legacy Section
Criticisms Section: I would like to see the creation of a new a criticisms section relating to the plans and execution of ASTP. Criticisms could cover political, technical, and economic issues. For instance, I don't have the citations at the moment, but I remember reading about a number of individuals from NASA, particularly space crews, who were dismayed at the choice to use the last Apollo module for what some considered to be nothing more than a public relations stunt, instead of another lunar mission (i.e. Apollo 18). Obviously, if the funding was not there for a return to the moon, then the issue was probably moot - but it is still worth discussing. So too would be considerations about the ending of the Apollo program for budgetary and political reasons, especially in light of the fact that the Shuttle had not yet been completed. From a political perspective, were their individuals in the US or Soviet Union who questioned the joint mission? Other critical issues could also be discussed.
Legacy Section: I would also like to see a few changes to the legacy section. There is nothing wrong with mentioning the naming of a minor planet in honor of ASTP. However, there must be a greater legacy than just that. What was the political legacy of two military and political rivals engaging in a joint mission? How can ASTP be viewed in terms of détente (e.g. the signing of SALT I and talks about SALT II in 1972, the 1975 Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe and the Helsinki Accords...). And of course, what about the technical legacies? What did the US and Soviets learn about docking spacecraft, standardization, shared mission control, etc? Were those lessons applied to future collaboration between the US and Russia? What was the impact of ASTP on the Shuttle program, Sky Lab, or ISS, if any?
- The Apollo program was clearly winding down at the time; it would have been nice to have another moon mission, but I'm not sure the lack of one can be realistically blamed on the this project. (The real problem at the time was the delays in the Shuttle program, so that the shuttle didn't fly until Skylab had already fallen out of the sky -- the Skylab could have been the start of a space station, if the shuttle had been ready on time.) The legacy was presumably laying the groundwork for post-1990 NASA-Russian space cooperation... AnonMoos (talk) 10:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I saw Gene Kranz certainly voice criticism in an on-camera documentary interview, but he wanted another Saturn IB mission to the Skylab rather than another lunar mission (which would have been probably impractical and much more expensive to "un-mothball" a Saturn V and LM at that time.) A Skylab 5 mission might have possibly been used to restore its orbit so that it would survive until the Space Shuttle flew (as was originally intended before the Shuttle got delayed.) On the other hand, at some point the Skylab would have aged, (consumables run out, etc.) and could it have been refurbished at some point (or really convertible into a larger station?) All interesting speculation, but unknowns which require verification to avoid OR. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Proposed merge of Crews of Apollo–Soyuz Test Project
- Strongly oppose The merge wouldn't be necessary at all, if User:Soerfm hadn't made a set of radical changes to the article, including splitting these tables out to a new page (without following procedure, BTW) and replacing it with a gramatically incorrect sentence: "The crews that met in space was: ...". This user also made a number of changes breaking the standard style in existence for all the Apollo / Skylab / ASTP mission pages. I believe all of these changes should be reverted. That page should also be deleted. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)