Talk:Apostolic succession

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Apostolic Founders[edit]

erm.. why 'claims'? smacks of skepticism if you ask me. something neutral would be better.. I changed this once before but someone changed back. can we get consensus please?

Dava4444 (talk) 20:43, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Well off hand, Apostolic succession#Apostolic Founders points out that Rome "claims to have been founded by Saint Peter" (the claim, early on, was to have been founded by Peter and Paul) but for the church in Rome to have been founded by Peter is almost impossible. Quoting from Early centers of Christianity:
''Paul's [[Epistle to the Romans]] {{bibleverse-nb|Romans||16}} (''c'' 58) attests to a large Christian community already there<ref name="Oxford:Rome">The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3), article ''Rome (early Christian)''</ref> but does not mention [[Saint Peter|Peter]]. The tradition that the [[See of Rome]] was founded as an organized Christian community by Peter and Paul and that its [[episcopate]] owes to them its origin can be traced as far back as [[Christianity in the 2nd century|second-century]] [[Irenaeus]].<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html |title=Irenaeus Against Heresies 3.3.2 |quote=...[the] Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. ...The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate.}}</ref> Irenaeus does not say that either Peter or Paul was "bishop" of the Church in Rome, and some historians have questioned whether Peter spent much time in Rome before his martyrdom.<ref name=BrownMeier>{{cite book |authors=Brown, Raymond E. and Meier, John P. |title=Antioch and Rome: New Testament Cradles of Christianity |publisher=Paulist Press |year=1983 |quote=As for Peter, we have no knowledge at all of when he came to Rome and what he did there before he was martyred. Certainly he was ''not'' the original missionary who brought Christianity to Rome (and therefore ''not'' the founder of the church of Rome in that sense). There is no serious proof that he was the bishop (or local ecclesiastical officer) of the Roman church—a claim not made till the third century. Most likely he did not spend any major time at Rome before 58 when Paul wrote to the Romans, and so it may have been only in the 60s and relatively shortly before his martyrdom that Peter came to the capital.}}</ref>''
''[[Oscar Cullmann]] sharply rejected the claim that Peter [[Historical development of the doctrine of Papal Primacy|began the papal succession]],<ref name=Time>"In the life of Peter there is no starting point for a chain of succession to the leadership of the church at large." While Cullman believed the Matthew 16:18 text is entirely valid and is in no way spurious, he says it cannot be used as "warrant of the papal succession."— "Religion: Peter & the Rock." ''Time," December 7, 1953. [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,890753-1,00.html Time.com] Accessed October 8, 2009</ref> and concludes that while Peter ''was'' the [[Primacy of Simon Peter|original head of the apostles]], Peter was not the founder of any visible church succession.<ref name=Time/><ref name=Cullman>Cullman, Oscar "In the New Testament [Jerusalem] is the only church of which we hear that Peter stood at its head. Of other episcopates of Peter we know nothing certain. Concerning Antioch, indeed ... there is a tradition, first appearing in the course of the second century, according to which Peter was its bishop. The assertion that he was Bishop of Rome we first find at a much later time. From the second half of the second century we do possess texts that mention the apostolic ''foundation'' of Rome, and at this time, which is indeed rather late, this foundation is traced back to Peter and Paul, an assertion that cannot be supported historically. Even here, however, nothing is said as yet of an episcopal office of Peter."</ref>''
I suppose many would feel it unfair to only say "claimed" for Rome and not others, when most of the the other sees have no real evidence either way. tahc chat 21:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Richard McBrien[edit]

An IP editor recently removed a section related to Richard McBrien without an explanation why. I'm opening this conversation in hopes to foster a discussion on this material. Asterisk*Splat 18:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)