Talk:Apu Nahasapeemapetilon

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Rename?[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The oppose votes are far stronger than those in support. Comments based on COMMONNAME have effectively been discounted: his common name, simply "Apu", is not in question, the question is how should we disambiguate it because Apu is ambiguous. As such, the strongest votes were those based on WP:PRECISION, which prefers natural disambiguation over parenthetical. The other point that carried weight was the (unrefuted) statement that Simpsons characters are disambiguated by their surname, if known (this carries weight because of the "consistency" criterion at WP:AT). Jenks24 (talk) 08:55, 14 July 2012 (UTC)



Apu NahasapeemapetilonApu (The Simpsons) – Per Fry (Futurama), the common name may overcome natural precision. The last name... is harder to type without AutoSearch function and harder to remember. I still don't know why natural precision is preferred over commonality. To me, I believe that many sources refer this character as "Apu". Well, this has full name, and .... I don't know. Nevertheless, we are discussing Wikipedia usage, not any other usage. By the way, I'm still working on User:George Ho/Naming conventions (character). --George Ho (talk) 09:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

There are Bender (Futurama) and Zoidberg. --George Ho (talk) 10:33, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Support Like you said, without auto search, who can spell his last name. CTJF83 10:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Neutral - Hmm, this is an interesting issue, and in this case I'd be inclined to agree. But 1) If the present name only being readily accessible with AutoSearch is an issue, surely it will be the same as "Apu (The Simpsons)"? At least with Nahasapeemapetilon people would expect it to be called that. But "Apu (The Simpsons)" isn't something I would search if I wasn't familiar with Wikipedia's naming conventions. And 2) This, to me, is a slippery slope. People call Bart 'Bart' more than 'Bart Simpson', people immediately know who you mean when you say Bart, but there's no way that should be moved to "Bart (The Simpsons)". So, as said, I'm neutral on this. Gran2 17:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Apu's last name is rarely heard on the show, and when it is said, it's almost always as a throwaway joke. CityOfSilver 17:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Apu (The Simpsons)" fails the common name test; I get 169,000 ghits including other common variations of punctuation and spacing (if anybody knows how to get google to search more precisely, please say so) whilst "Apu nahasapeemapetilon" alone gets 165,000 results. It seems very unlikely that most readers will type exactly "Apu (The Simpsons)" into the search box, including that combination of brackets and capitalisation; but if they do, we can handle it with a redirect. Apu's surname offers natural disambiguation; appending "(The Simpsons)" does not. "Apu (the simpsons)" is, y'know, not his actual name. bobrayner (talk) 16:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I hate to disappoint you, but 'Apu "The Simpsons"' (without parenthesis) results 803,000 hits. --George Ho (talk) 16:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Yes, if you search for those separate items appearing anywhere in a document. That is not the proposal here; the proposal is one specific string to be the article title, "Apu (The Simpsons)". That gets far fewer google hits because it's such an unnatural construction. bobrayner (talk) 17:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
        • Unfortunately, Google usage and Wikipedia usage do not match. Why do use of parentheses and exactness in Google matter to you? How are Google results relevant? --George Ho (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
          • In the move request, you argued that "Apu (The Simpsons)" was the "common name". If you're withdrawing that claim in the face of evidence to the contrary, then we can forget about the move and everybody's happy. If you're standing by that claim, you'd better bring some better evidence that "Apu (The Simpsons)" is actually more common. I can't imagine how that might happen, since it's a rather unnatural construction what with the bracketed suffix and all, but I'm open to further evidence. I'm also baffled by the notion that readers would more likely remember and type in that (with the particular combination of brackets, spacing, and capitalisation) instead of just trying to type in a natural name - after all, if you get as far as "Apu N" the search box is whittled down to one suggestion. bobrayner (talk) 05:54, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
            • I'm not implying that. I just said that "Apu" is his common name. I just added "(The Simpsons)" in this proposal based on WP:NCTV, which you may or may not be familiar with. I did not propose a move to "Apu" because Apu may imply something else, like The Apu Trilogy. These are all evidence and arguments I have, and there is no way for me to withdraw this. This isn't "Big". Stats are not that useful to determine primacy of "Apu", as Apu (or APU) is an abbreviation of anything, like Alaska Pacific University. If there is evidence that this character is primary enough to dominate "Apu", then prove it. --George Ho (talk) 12:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
              • WP:NCTV only recommends bracketed suffixes for disambiguation. I was unaware that we had any other articles about other subjects called Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. If you would like to be taken seriously, either explain why this article needs to be disambiguated from other things called "Apu Nahasapeemapetilon", or bring some other policy which actually supports what you're saying. bobrayner (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose; the Fry decision was not well-founded in policy and should not be used as a precedent. Doing so repeatedly, as George Ho is doing, is bordering on disruptive. Powers T 22:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Well, requesting a rename on Michael Kelso is withdrawn thanks to everyone else's arguments. The same, however, cannot be said about Apu's name (or Coach Ernie Pantusso). How natural and/or common is Apu's surname to you? By the way, I created Apu The Simpsons without brackets or parentheses, just in case. --George Ho (talk) 23:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Disruptive? Perhaps. Necessary? Unfortunately, yes. Without a formal guideline for naming articles for fictional characters, these must be handled on a case-by-case basis. While I agree with the Michael Kelso ruling and am opposed to moving Coach Ernie Pantusso to Coach (Cheers), Apu is almost never referred to with "Nahasapeemapetilon", so I support move. If I were to cite a Wikipedia policy, then WP:NAMINGCRITERIA urges consistency, so the shortening to just "Apu" is appropriate per the Fry ruling and the lack of another notable "Apu" on the Simpsons (whereas the presence of Casey Kelso killed the Michael Kelso RM). RedSoxFan2434 (talk) 04:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Apu may not always be referred to as "Apu Nahasapeemapetilon", but he's called "Apu (The Simpsons)" much less frequently. So, I cannot fathom why would you would support the move on that basis. Can you clarify? bobrayner (talk)
  • Comment: Abandoning consistent natural names in favour of internal conventions, in the name of consistency, is insane. Editors, not readers, are familiar with enwiki's internal norms; those norms should not override reality. (I've seen some articles on other things given names which did not exist at all in reality, but they had to be given that prefix/suffix because that's Just What We Do in that class of article). Here's a suggestion: How about we consistently give each character article the character's real name? bobrayner (talk) 09:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
    • .... WP:NCP doesn't apply, no guidelines about naming a fictional character currently exist, Apu's surname is not easy to pronounce or spell, and even copying-and-pasting by one source can make people wonder how or why a source can spell Apu's surname. As RedSox said, case-by-case can occur. Unlike Michael Kelso, this discussion... depends. --George Ho (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
      • We already have a policy on how articles should be named. It's here. It's deeply misleading to claim that we don't even have a guideline on how to name this article. bobrayner (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes, I do: WP:NCTV#Disambiguation: "(name of show)". I guess you're not familiar with the rules, right? --George Ho (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
          • Actually, WP:NCTV does not say anything that applies to this debate, unless there happens to be a Simpsons episode titled "Apu" or "Apu Nahasapeemapetilon". There is no guide specifically for TV characters: WP:NAMINGCRITERIA says that patterns regarding consistency are documented in the specific-topic naming conventions, but there is no specific-topic guide for TV characters, which is why I insist on going by a case-by-case basis until one is approved. RedSoxFan2434 (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. There is little benefit to using an unfamiliar and relatively rarely used surname for disambiguation. It seems far more sensible to use something easily recognizable, such as the show, for disambiguation. olderwiser 17:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME and CityofSilver. Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0 09:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose - It seems that due to the fervour of editors here both names can be considered to be the common name. Which is more common is debateable - and debated it is with no clear answer. In that case I'd suggest simply leaving it as is - Apu Nahasapeemapetilon - with the Apu ((The Simpsons) serving as a redirect - thus covering both options. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:41, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. JDDJS (talk) 01:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Most characters on the show with known surnames are known primarily by their first name, even if it is clear that they have a surname. Those characters likewise use their first and last name as the article title. It seems that the disagreement is derived from the cumbersome spelling, which I believe to be a poor excuse. 74.212.145.18 (talk) 18:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose, use natural disambiguation over parenthetical disambiguation per WP:PRECISION. Neither title is "guessable" for most readers, each is reachable by a redirect from the other, by the disambiguation page, and by the predictive search box. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
    The disambiguation page can change, a search box can be deactivated by a user preference anytime, and... when is the last time you correctly spelled his last name? --George Ho (talk) 15:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
    My !vote keys on WP:PRECISION. It seems that you should focus on forming a new consensus there or on the naming conventions for characters. If either of those comes to pass, I will happily !vote support. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Interesting article to be included[edit]

This article is about Apu's inherent racism and about how his character should be retired. A fascinating read, and no matter how opposed you are to it, it seems to be a notable opinion.--Coin945 (talk) 07:55, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I second that suggested topic. They also spoke about it on CNN. This item was never resolved, but I don't want to write the section then have someone else erase it all. We now have a CNN report and a Huffington Post article regarding the contraversy. Do we need more?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/10/pzn.01.html

Wjserson (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)